[johnta1]

By comparison, a 2018 study by Johns Hopkins University ESTIMATED that over 250,000 Americans died as a result of medical mistakes. No one suggested that we shut down the entire nation for that.

I would wager the number of suicides directly related to the Response to this far exceed the Medical losses by the virus.

The new drug & alcohol addicts created by the Response to this far outweigh the folks being treated.

How are these contagious?


How it compares to previous outbreaks or why this happened is for later discussion when it is over. (or another thread, probably for the Clubhouse)



Stopping it right now is the real objective.

[Cliff R]

This virus is dangerous and deadly, make no mistake about it. We don't see high death rates like the Spanish Flu in 1918 because modern technology provides us the means to save those that end up hospitalized when their immune systems aren't getting it done.

Some good reading here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_flu

Make sure to scroll down and read the sections on Deadly Second Wave and Devastated Communities....pretty scary stuff!

Another problem with this pandemic is that we tend to focus on the numbers, such as the death rates, for example. The media also tended to "down-play" the seriousness of the disease early on by making statements that old folks and those with other underlying conditions are the highest risk. Chit, that statement is true for all diseases, but this one is killing younger and healthy folks at an alarming rate. Just take a closer look at the percentages that end up in ICU or they probably wouldn't make it. Closer to 14 percent of the folks who get this disease will have problems in their lungs and many will require hospitalization. The potential is there to fill hospitals till their overflowing and those that end up in a gymnasium someplace with a day bed and an IV waiting on GM to make their breathing machine are likely to perish.

In any case if we just hunker down, stay at home and follow the rules it goes away like all the others before it. It's sure been a game-changer for sure, but hopefully most of us are following the rules and less folks will die because of it.......Cliff

[hurryinhoosier62]

Cliff, with all do respect I don’t need to read about the Spanish flu of 1918-1919. My paternal grandfather was infected with it while stationed at Camp Knox(now Fort Knox) while preparing to deploy to France in the fall of 1918. It damaged his heart so severely that the Army retired him on total disability at the age of 22. The side effects killed his first wife and infant son along with his mother(my paternal great grandmother)People keep missing one FACT about COVID-19: 85% will have mild symptoms IF we even contract it. IF people would simply use their heads and NOT panic ( which IS going on) we would all be better off. Hells bells, I’m in the high risk group as is my wife. I ‘m not going out unless I have to, nor am I living in abject terror. John mentioned the highly contagious nature of this virus. Compared to the communicably of measles it’s nothing. We all survived measles. Once again, comparing COVID-19 to the Spanish flu the Spanish flu infected EVERY part of the world in one year with the major mode of transportation being transoceanic shipping. COVID-19 has had the advantage of global air transport.

[SRR]

I'm 63 and on "Talz" for my PA. (immune suppressor) I'm deemed "essential" and work in a parts store. We have signs and barriers all over the store stating the 6' distance. Most people ignore them or when reminded get annoyed. There are still people coming in with the whole family. Business is a little slower and we close two hours earlier. We are required to wear gloves which are giving me a rash on my hands. Our bathrooms are cleaner than they have ever been. I started everybody sanitizing phones, keyboards, mouse, scan guns before all this happened during flu season. Now it's mandatory.
They have given us more sick hours.

[Shiny]

Originally Posted by SRR

.... We have signs and barriers all over the store stating the 6' distance. Most people ignore them or when reminded get annoyed.….

I had to go in Home Depot a few days ago to pick up an online order.. they had 5-gallon buckets stacked in a ring as a barrier around the help desk to "remind" customers about the 6' distance. I liked that they did this. You might consider the same?

[mgarblik]

Originally Posted by SRR

I'm 63 and on "Talz" for my PA. (immune suppressor) I'm deemed "essential" and work in a parts store. We have signs and barriers all over the store stating the 6' distance. Most people ignore them or when reminded get annoyed. There are still people coming in with the whole family. Business is a little slower and we close two hours earlier. We are required to wear gloves which are giving me a rash on my hands. Our bathrooms are cleaner than they have ever been. I started everybody sanitizing phones, keyboards, mouse, scan guns before all this happened during flu season. Now it's mandatory.
They have given us more sick hours.

Seems each state has it's own approach to the lockdown. Most of my parts come from a single NAPA store. Their "store" is closed, no walk in customers. They are open, however. You can call in your order or order on their Prolink website. They will deliver or you can go to the store to pick-up. Pull in the lot, call on cell phone and they will bring the parts out to your car/truck. The parts logistics and supply chain is fouled-up however. I tell customers to expect 3-4 days to get their cars back when at worst before the pandemic it would be next day. No choice right now.

[bird72]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/coronavir...204800383.html

"Researchers at the University of Minnesota created a 3D map of the virus, known technically as Sars-CoV-2. They found that it has a shell of thick spikes that latch onto human cell receptors much more efficiently than Sars, another type of coronavirus that caused a smaller-scale but devastating pandemic in Asia in 2002"
.

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by bird72

https://www.yahoo.com/news/coronavir...204800383.html

"Researchers at the University of Minnesota created a 3D map of the virus, known technically as Sars-CoV-2. They found that it has a shell of thick spikes that latch onto human cell receptors much more efficiently than Sars, another type of coronavirus that caused a smaller-scale but devastating pandemic in Asia in 2002"
.

Not to mention the mortality rate of COVID-19 is LOWER than SARS.

[brut4s]

Must listen to this Dr giving real info
https://youtu.be/8U4byjIotoo

[GT182]

Most deaths are due to underlying health issues. I said most not all.

[avman]

I've written about this treatment in a couple of my posts in this thread.
Remember, my wife is on the front line as a nurse at the VA hospital and I service and repair medical equipment.
FDA approves limited use of malaria drugs for coronavirus
...The HSS said that Sandoz, a division of the Novartis Group, had donated 30 million doses of hydroxychloroquine, while Bayer donated 1 million doses of*chloroquine.
The FDA has already given New York state permission to give desperately ill patients a cocktail of hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin on a “compassionate care” basis....

[avman]

Of course I did, and the predictable torrent of blame, but this isn't the venue for that.
I did point out elsewhere that H²O and H²O² may seem similar, like carbon monoxide and carbon dioxide, but obviously they are not.
Lol

[johnta1]

Anthony, if people would bother to research SARS, they would find SARS has a 10% mortality rate. COVID-19 has NOT reached this mortality rate on average. MERS is three times more lethal than SARS(34-36%). WHY would FACTS, readily available FACTS trigger an argument?

More Facts:

Since it emerged in 2012, MERS has killed 858 people, while 774 people died of SARS during the 2003 outbreak.

Ebola, which in 2014 killed over 11,000 people in West Africa, has had a fatality rate between 25 percent to 90 percent depending on the outbreak.

2009 outbreak of H1N1, or swine flu. That illness infected between 700 million and 1.4 billion people worldwide but only had a mortality rate of 0.02%.


MERS - 858 Killed - roughly 2,500 confirmed cases since it was first reported

SARS - 774 killed - 8,098 confirmed cases worldwide

Ebola - 11,000+ killed

H1N1 - ??? (.02% of 1.4 billion = 280,000)


March 30, 2020:

COVID-19:
World: 38,000+ killed - 784,000 confirmed cases
USA: 3,008 killed - 160,000 confirmed cases
NYC: 1,342 killed - 67,000+ confirmed cases


These are just starting to escalate.

Which would you want to have?

[Cliff R]

As mentioned previously this virus is DEADLY. Also keep in mind that we are taking steps to prevent the spread of the virus and the mortality rate is lower simply because modern technology offers excellent care for hospitalized patients to keep them from drowning in their own fluids and fight off secondary infections that move into their lungs after the virus ravages their immune system and damages lung tissue to a point where it can no longer effectively exchange oxygen transfer with the blood. Sadly we are still seeing folks perish, even younger previously healthy persons who got the needed care early on.

In any case this is certainly nothing to argue about fellas. It's the Lobby, put up your facts and opinions and move on. Awareness is good medicine with this outbreak, it's killing a lot of people and spreading all over the country despite all the efforts put in place to minimize that deal. We've been locked down here for weeks and going to stay home as ordered by the Governor. If everyone else did the same this would go away a LOT quicker.........Cliff

[Half-Inch Stud]

CLIFF, seems you may have the time to build Q-JETs again. Hey, i'm doing another 4L80 so...you can doo iit!

[dataway]

Again ... the reason the Covid mortality rate seems high is because of the vast numbers of people that have/had it, that experience no, or few, symptoms .... so they are never counted in the "infected" base.

When they finally count the millions of people that had covid and never went to the hospital the mortality rate will plummet, right now, the only people being counted are the victims so sick they had to go to the hospital. For every one person that tested positive they estimate there are five infected that never sought testing or care.

The problem with comparing to past outbreaks is that in the case of past outbreaks they have had years to analyze the data and to estimate total infections and ratio that with known deaths. Since they haven't even tested 1% of the population at this point there is no real data to work with.

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by dataway

Again ... the reason the Covid mortality rate seems high is because of the vast numbers of people that have/had it, that experience no, or few, symptoms .... so they are never counted in the "infected" base.

When they finally count the millions of people that had covid and never went to the hospital the mortality rate will plummet, right now, the only people being counted are the victims so sick they had to go to the hospital. For every one person that tested positive they estimate there are five infected that never sought testing or care.

The problem with comparing to past outbreaks is that in the case of past outbreaks they have had years to analyze the data and to estimate total infections and ratio that with known deaths. Since they haven't even tested 1% of the population at this point there is no real data to work with.

Precisely. With a virus such as COVID-19, 1% isn’t even a good scientific study group. This is the problem with models; model results are subject to wildly different outcomes with simple adjustments to the data.

[bird72]

Originally Posted by hurryinhoosier62

Anthony, if people would bother to research SARS, they would find SARS has a 10% mortality rate. COVID-19 has NOT reached this mortality rate on average. MERS is three times more lethal than SARS(34-36%). WHY would FACTS, readily available FACTS trigger an argument?

I am not going to get into back and forths with anyone on this, as a personal choice. As an exception, I must respond with this, then I let the rest of you debate if Corona is a worthy topic of discussion or not.

IMO and others, mortality rate alone is not the sole determiner of how serious a Pandemic is. Fatality rate, combined with the attack rate or infectibility determine the degree of the epidemic. Either alone is not a component that one can base a conclusion on. They work together. An example is Ebola. Pretty deadly and not as transmittable as other viruses.

I also recognize I am no expert and to come on here and say "this is the way it is" is wrong. I will continue to post info. Also, as an FYI, I have been reading on this hours a day, so not sure who your people not bothering to research are, but I just worry about myself and my research. So if that was a dig at me, again, whatever, it is all good. You seem angry and I hope you get over that, if the case. Maybe I am wrong.

[NeighborsComplaint]

Some interesting reading here with links to other articles if you're into conspiracy theory:

https://greatgameindia.com/coronavirus-bioweapon/

One particularly troubling scenario present was the potential for development of ".an offensive agent, or a modified germ let loose by proxies, for which only China has the treatment or vaccine." It is arguable that China has also suffered massive losses of life. Perhaps the genie got out of the bottle before the vaccine development was completed …

There has been more than a fair share of mysterious circumstances surrounding NML in Canada and its Director including U.S. Customs' interception of dangerous virus samples hidden in the finger of a pair of gloves. I distinctly remember news reports of the deportation of the Chinese Nationals from Canada in 2019 under what the Canadian government called "breeches of security and protocol". The incident was significantly downplayed, presumably to avoid an international incident with China.

[hurryinhoosier62]

My point to EVERYONE is to look further than the headlines. Dr Fauci’s comments on the worst case scenario total number of fatalities of this pandemic are being lauded by the MSM as “absolutes”, when they are anything but. These forecasts are based on computer modeling. Modeling assumes certain factors. Change the assumed factors with hard data the result of the modeling changes; sometimes radically as in the overall COVID-19 death totals for Great Britain(500,000 to 20,000). For 200,000 people to die of COVID-19 before the forecasted peak of mid April, tens of thousands would have to die over the next two weeks., but this is the narrative that is being propagated by the media. The actual data from Italy and Spain do NOT suggest a death rate this extreme but people are ignoring the data and accepting the narrative. I am a coldly cynical, rational realist. I look at things based on FACTS, not emotion. IMO, emotion is affecting decision making far too much.