[Cliff R]

Stabil will NOT prevent this new fuel from loosing octane nor will it prevent it from sucking in waterl at a 1 to 1 rate with the concentration of Ethanol.

It may help some, but I have no way to validate that. What I don know is that I see a lot of this sort of thing and quite a few of the customers I'm getting work from use Stabil in all their fuel. Some even avoid ethanol and buy expensive non-Ethanol fuel and they still have troubles IF they let it sit in vented systems for LONG periods of time.....FWIW.....

[Formulajones]

I'm pretty sure the gas in the nomad is about 2 years old, lol. I put a couple gallons in it about 8-10 months ago.

It always starts right up and purrs like a kitten when I need to move it around.

It's just crappy Arizona 91 octane cat pee and I don't use any kind of stabilizers in it. I'm sure it's not as potent as fresh gas and honestly it doesn't smell all that great either, lol, but it's never given me any kind of hard start problems with the car.

[78w72]

cant imagine its the fuels fault having issues starting a car after half a year or even 1-2 years... i have pulled parts cars out of fields or barns that sat for 2, 3, 5, or one was even 9 years & they all started, aside from worn out engines or carb issues. the 9 year old one was a 78 SBC firebird with mouse nests in the tail pipes & air cleaner/carb, just for fun i cleaned up the air cleaner & carb & put a battery in it to see if it would crank over & it did. i poured a little gas in the carb & it fired right up & blew the rest of the nests & black carbon crap out the tail pipe! car ran & idled ok & even went into gear, had a rusted fuel line near the tank so i shut it off & was able to say it ran when i sold it. & the gas smelled like varnish! i agree gas can go bad but like FJ said, i dont think it goes bad to the point of not starting after a year or so, even with ethanol.

as for stabilizers, i use & have excellent results with seafoam @ 1oz/gallon, although im sure my cars & small engines would start fine in <1yr without any stabilizers, it gives me a warn fuzzy feeling knowing its helping some & is a mild cleaner to avoid any varnish happening from the fuel drying out over the winter.

as for fuels, non ethanol fuel isnt "expensive" its like .30/gal more than 10% ethanol where i live, well worth the small added cost to not deal with potential ethanol issues & straight gas gets better MPG due to more BTUs than ethanol. another fact about ethanol fuel is that it uses less octane fuel to get to the number on the pump, 87 with 10% ethanol is really 84 or 85 gas & the ethanol bumps it up a couple points... 89 eth starts as 87 gas & 93 eth starts as 91 gas. i prefer 91 with no ethanol in all my cars & use 87 no ethanol in my FI daily driver.

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

"The factory did fix it, but one person I spoke with attributed it to using 87 octane fuel, even though the manual never states that I should use premium fuel, I still do in the 2 stroke engines."

For sure higher octane will help your 2 stroke power equipment but P/C failure is directly related to being too lean on the "H" speed screw which causes excessive engine RPM's, high EGT's, and less lubricant all at the same time. This melts/smears some aluminum from the piston over the rings on the exhaust side and it's DONE. For at least 20 years now the factory has been installing limiter caps on the carburetor adjustment screws, some are even non-adjustable, or take "special" tools to adjust them. This is all thanks to the EPA and causes a lot of engine failures.

This new fuel also looses octane when sitting for long periods of time making start-ups difficult. I had a Honda generator brought here a while back, only used once a few years ago after a storm took out the power here for over a week. It refused to start and I just figured the carb was gummed up, but it was clean. I ended up dumping the fuel (owner had put Stabil in it) outside the shop in the gravel and tried to light it on fire. It simply would NOT burn, at least with simple attempts to light it which typically would have you running for your life with good gasoline. We ended up getting it to light with a propane torch but it burned very slowly, more like kerosene that gasoline. Anyhow I put fresh fuel in the generator and it roared to life.

There are also other things that can lead to poor cold starts, first and foremost is the accl pump in the carburetor. Many pump seals will shrink when the carb dries up and it may take a few minutes of contact with fuel before they start working. Without some pump shot cold starts are nearly impossible even if you have fuel in the carburetor bowl.

So combine poor pump shot or lack of it with gas that has lost it's ability to burn well and you will have difficult cold starts in that particular vehicle......Cliff

The engine failure was just exactly as you described it, this was roughly around 1993, not sure if the factory was running the high speed circuit that lean back that far, or not. I wasn't going to mess with the carb at that point, it was running fine, and still almost a new saw. It ran just fine, until it didn't, only had about 10 hours on the saw when it failed.

I got the run around at first, from the dealer I bought it from, I then talked to a person at Husqvarna, and he told me it was my fault, citing the generic 2 stroke oil, and 87 octane fuel. I took it to another dealer and he contacted a field rep to look at it. This rep was cool, and he told the dealer to warranty it, said they had some defective cages on the connecting rod roller bearings that caused this failure, so it was taken care of.

Had he not run it through under warranty I would have never bought another Husky saw again. To date I've had 4 of them, and only that one has failed. It was a good saw after the warranty repair, but was eventually stolen.

BTW, I have the set of tamper proof carb tools, I do feel my current saw is set pretty lean, and would benefit from a tweeking of the carb. I bought this saw roughly 2 years ago, it has the primer bulb on it. I mostly use it for trimming the trees on my property, as I no longer have a wood stove to heat the house. I do use wood to heat the garage, but I have nearly a cord of seasoned wood right now.

[Cliff R]

The engine failure was just exactly as you described it, this was roughly around 1993, not sure if the factory was running the high speed circuit that lean back that far, or not.

For sure, the EPA had limiter caps on small 2 stroke equipment dating clear back into the 1980's.

Off topic for Pontiac stuff but useful info. BEFORE I put any new chainsaw, string trimmer, leaf blower, etc into service I remove the factory limiter caps and custom tune them. I also run 40 to 1 premium TCW-3 rated 2 stroke oil with 92-93 octane (instead of 50 to 1).

Have had ZERO issues with any equipment that I own, have sold, or work on here..

Keep in mind here that a LOT of this stuff is showing up now with "fixed jet" carburetors, sealed mixture screws, or screws that require special tools to turn them.

I'd also add that removing limiter caps may void your warranty, so proceed at your own risk, but even with that said if you are buying good equipment it's better to get many years of good service out of it vs "smoking" the P/C after a couple of tanks of fuel......

[Sun Tuned]

ive taken gas out of cars that wouldn’t start. Put fresh in and then it would start. They would start on a small hit of starter fluid, that’s the clue.

Then I took and poured some on the concrete and lit it.... we noticed the gas that was fresh lit and almost instantly burned away as it should.

The gas that had lost its volatility still lit, but not with the gusto the fresh stuff did. One other thing...
The gas that wasn’t fresh had this strange looking soot over the top of the flame very much like the spot coming off an acetylene torch when you have the adjustment too rich.

Interesting to see what this stuff does and leaves inside the combustion chambers of heads that have been running this stale stuff for any length of time.

[Cliff R]

Fresh gas poured onto the floor should have you running for your life if you try to light it!,,,

[68 Firebird]

I have been having good success using seafoam when equipment gets stored last few years. Kids go cart and quads get a healthy dose, and no issues with restart in the spring.
Used to have to remove carb and clean out apple jelly crud and blow out all orifices.
Heck I will give my Firebird, snow blower and Honda Foreman plow quad a dose late fall.
So far no ill side effects with ethanol laced 91 from NJ.
Gerry

[1965gp]

I once used seafoam in our 79 TA. Original engine, fuel tank, carb and it definitely cleaned it out. I had dirt getting in the carb so often I eventually replaced the tank and lines.

Maybe I used too much- not sure

[Joel Koontz]

I got a portable inverter generator a few years ago. Works very well and always starts within 2 pulls(usually 1) on FRESH gas. There have been times when I have let the gas get 2-3 months old and then tried to start it. Would not start, even with many pulls, different choke settings etc.

Drain the old gas, put in fresh and it starts on first pull.

Same scenario, at least 3 times now so I am certain that the gas is degrading and some of the vapors that were present when it was fresh, are no longer there, after it has set for 2-3 months.

NOTE: This degradation may not occur as rapidly in a modern "sealed" fuel system, where "there is no place for the vapors to go" and the effect is probably minimized by a FI system that atomizes the fuel much better, but in old stuff it is a major issue.

[fyrffytr1]

Why don't you just start your cars up and let them idle a while once a week?

[Joel Koontz]

Originally Posted by fyrffytr1

Why don't you just start your cars up and let them idle a while once a week?

There is some benefit to that, but depending on the situation, it may be very inconvenient to do and it is does not address the issue of the vapors, that are need for easy starting of a carbureted engine, evaporating over time.

[Cliff R]

I have two generators here and both have been flawless on this new fuel for years. However, IF for any reason I do not follow the following shut-down procedure they absolutely WILL NOT start the next time I call on them.

With them fully warmed up/heat soaked and running remove the load and shut off the fuel supply to the carburetor. (if it doesn't have a fuel shut off install one, they are $5 at TSC, Rural King, etc. If it is a smaller unit without a fuel line and pulls directly from the tank drain ALL the fuel out or just let it suck the tank dry) Just as the engine stalls out pull the choke till it dies out. Leave both the choke and the switch in the on position. I will add here that many "high" end generator sets, Honda, Onan, etc, even the smaller ones may have an auto fuel shut off built into them. For these units you will need to drain the carburetor dry after shut-down and most have a screw right in the carburetor float bowl for that purpose.

Next time you call on it turn the fuel on to the carburetor and wait about 30 seconds for it to fill. It will start in one or two pulls.

Leaving fuel in the carburetor is s death sentence for that type of equipment.

I'd also add that right around the first of each month I run both of them for about 30 minutes and top them off with fresh 92-93 octane fuel.

Both were purchased back in 2003-2004 and zero issues to date following these procedures.

I do exactly the same thing for all of my small power equipment with one small change. With them fully warmed up I dump all the fuel from the tank and run them until they just get ready to stall out and pull the choke. I have 3 string trimmers, pole saw, garden tiller, three leaf blowers and over a dozen chainsaws and ZERO issues with any of them in long term service on this new fuel. I do NOT use any type of fuel additives or "stabilizers" either

As it relates to our older vehicles with vented fuel systems it's really going to help them to shut off the fuel supply to the carburetor at shut-down IF you don't plan on using them for quite a while. I'd also have the tank low or empty as well so you can top it off with fresh fuel for the next "season". There is almost always someplace in the fuel system that you can clamp off a rubber hose to shut fuel off the pump/carb. I have a small clamp in the shop with rounded jaws made for that purpose...............Cliff

[Joel Koontz]

On my inverter generator, I have put a long drain line on the bowl drain and extended it out of the case and I have made an opening(drilled hole) in the side of the case so I can open the drain line very easily. Insert screwdriver, turn and drain. I installed that after the first no start with 2-3 MO fuel situation.

The next two times it happened I draining a pint of fuel from the bowl, each time, and it still would not start with the "old" fuel in it. It started instantly after I drained all the "old" fuel out and put in fresh.

I am convinced that vapors are evaporating.

Fuel where I am(and when I bought it) is almost certain to be different than what others have, so YMMV,

I put the "old" gas in my pickup and it seems to cause no issues, but it is heavily diluted and the truck has FI.

[78w72]

thats an awfully lot of work to follow those procedures... i guess each person has very different results with storing engines big or small.

i have been doing a very simple tried & true procedure for my cars & small engine equipment for 25+ years living in the frigid upper midwest, temps can get to -20f-30f & regularly see single digit highs & negative single digit lows for weeks on end during winter storage of 5-6 months. i do use seafoam as a stabilizer & have also used stabil, they both work as intended & i never have any problems starting cars or small engines come spring.

all i do for mowers, weed trimmers, power washers & snowblowers etc is to add 1oz/gal of seafoam to the gas i use the last time they run, then i drain out as much gas as i can from the tank & run them until they shut off. thats it. & many times i dont run them dry if winter/snow sneaks up on me & i dont get around to draining & running them all dry... they all start great 5-6 months later on the old residual fuel, but they dont gum up the carbs or anything if they arent drained dry. my mower is 20 years old & snowblower is 25-30 years old, other stuff is 10-15 years old, all on original never opened carbs.

on my cars i store, i add the seafoam at 1-2oz/gal, with about 1/4 tank & take them for a final drive to circulate the treated fuel, then i shut them off & park them where they sit for 5-6 months, (one sits for 6-8 months before i get it out) all with vented tanks & carbs... they all start right up in the spring once the fuel reaches the carb, no sputtering or hard starting etc. then i drive them to run out most the gas & they run perfectly fine, i add fresh gas & notice no difference in how they run. i also dont start them during storage since i cant drive them to fully warm up the oil... starting & idling for a few minutes or even 10-15 minutes to get the coolant gauge up to temp does not get the oil hot enough to burn off condensation or fuel blow by.

i dont doubt the stories above about hard starting & multiple pulls required on small engines, but for 25+ years doing this & id say 45+ years for my father following the same steps (only he doesnt drain & run dry) for his motorcycle & small engines, i/we have never once experienced any problems starting after 5-6 months, without going to all the trouble mentioned above for storing. guess im just lucky when it comes to engine storage in some of the worst/coldest climate in the country. only difference is i dont use ethanol, but i have on occasion with the same results.

for those that havent tried or dont use a stabilizer... maybe its worth trying to see if your results change? works great for me!

[Sun Tuned]

It’s all about the Reid vapor pressure and the volatility.

As this stuff gets older the volatility goes to hell. At that point the stuff that’s blended in with it seems to sour a bit also.

Not that big a puddle cliff. Lol

Seriously the stuff going unstable puts off an acetylene type black soot at the top of the flame when it burns. (Hydrocarbons) I guess. Looks very much like and lights very much like a kerosene wick lamp.

The fresh stuff like Cliff said will go boom and disappear very quickly with very little black sooty smoke.

That sooty residue will stick all over the inside of combustion chambers and piston tops and we’ve even seen the gummy residue stick valves. It’s not good practice to run old stale fuel. It may burn or seem to but I assure you it’s not doing anything inside the engine much good.

The deal where you’ve got 5 gallons of old fuel and not wanting to drain tank and pouring 5-10 gallons of fresh fuel in don’t work well either but folks do that all the time.

[Joel Koontz]

My example of my Inverter Generator is not to say that a car will act the same way that the IG did, it was to prove the point that some of the vapors are evaporating from the gas within a few months and it will have some effect on virtually all carbureted vehicles.

My IG is pull start only, it does not have an accelerator pump and the choke on it does not work the same way as most cars and lot of other small engines.

I have a bunch of Cub Cadets, I try not to let the gas get too old, but with a bunch of them, there are times when some of them set with gas in them for several months(sometimes years) With them they usually will start after extended cranking time and playing with the choke, but being able to crank the engine for 20-30 seconds straight, is a lot different than trying to pull start something.

On my Pontiac with a Tri-Power, I have also had situations were I had gas setting it in for longer than ideal. I have an Electric FP so I can fill carb bowls before cranking and 3 acc pumps dump in a lot of gas in to get it started.

If the gas has 1/3 the vapors it did when it was fresh and I dump in 3X the amount of fuel it should have taken to start it, it gets enough vapors to start, but it is probably not doing my engine any favors(gas washing down cylinder walls etc.)

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by Joel Koontz

I got a portable inverter generator a few years ago. Works very well and always starts within 2 pulls(usually 1) on FRESH gas. There have been times when I have let the gas get 2-3 months old and then tried to start it. Would not start, even with many pulls, different choke settings etc.

Drain the old gas, put in fresh and it starts on first pull.

Same scenario, at least 3 times now so I am certain that the gas is degrading and some of the vapors that were present when it was fresh, are no longer there, after it has set for 2-3 months.

NOTE: This degradation may not occur as rapidly in a modern "sealed" fuel system, where "there is no place for the vapors to go" and the effect is probably minimized by a FI system that atomizes the fuel much better, but in old stuff it is a major issue.

I used to fill up a couple of the Red Automotive 'round' gas cans with fuel for my lawn tractor. Over a period of time my John Deere Tractor would exhibit longer crank times before firing or not fire at all even with different choke settings (Hand Choke) on the mower.

I gave away the automotive cans and the one boat gas can and bought 3 of the military fuel cans with the hinge locking cap. Very good seal on this military can.

Now I can fill them a couple of times a summer and when I add new fresh gas from the can the tractor always fires off and runs well immediately with only a few seconds of the choke applied.

So a big issue with today's gas, as suntuned mentioned is the vapor pressure loss in the bowls of typical carburetors. The fuel is part of it, but the other part is the open vented carbs do not do well with storage, limited driving, and today's alcohol blended fuels.

Tom V.

[Joel Koontz]

[QUOTE=Tom Vaught;6208450]
I gave away the automotive cans and the one boat gas can and bought 3 of the military fuel cans with the hinge locking cap. Very good seal on this military can.

Tom, I have some plastic cans that seal pretty well, but they look like they may explode from expansion, if they get hit by sunlight, or contraction, when filled warm and then get very cold, so I am afraid to keep them totally sealed.

Do the military cans, seal completely and do they handle expansion/contraction without having to be concerned with the can rupturing?

[Joel Koontz]

Tom's comments about the Military Gas Cans got me thinking about my gas storage procedures.

I am sometimes "forced" to buy gas in bulk. Not actually forced, but as frugal as I am, it seems like it. Grocery store near me offers Fuel Perks that can accumulate to the point where I can get 30 gallons of gas for NO, or greatly reduce cost. The perks expire so I cannot always buy it "when I need it". When I can "get it for free/cheap" I always get the full 30 gallons. This means that I will often get 15 gallons of gas in cans to store for some period of time.

I transport in plastic 5 gal cans, but when I get home, I usually put it into a 15 gallon container that is easy to pump out of. The container has good gaskets on the openings and CAN be very well sealed, but because of my concerns about potential ruptures due to expansion/contraction, I do not normally tighten the bungs. A ruptured 15 gallon container of gas is not what I want in my shop(or anywhere)

I think I may have come up a better way to store the fuel.

The storage containers are 15G. I also have some 25-30 gal containers that the tops have been cut out of. The 15G containers are a fairly snug fit inside the 25G containers. I plan to put the 15G containers inside the 25Ga containers then fill with gas and tightly seal the 15G containers. Still a chance of rupture due to expansion/contraction, but if it does happen all of the gas will be contained in the 25G container.

Seems to me that this is fairly safe solution that should help my stored gas stay fresh substantially longer.