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#21
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Interesting.
My Milodon Road Race pan takes about 7 qts to read full on the dipstick. I just always assumed I needed to fill it to that level, but I can see how 6qts would be just fine and possibly free up some power. Of course, I'm not trying to set any records at the track, just want my engine to live a good, long life. Less aeration would seem to contribute to that but how fine is that line between "not enough oil" and "more than you need?"
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---------------------------- '72 Formula 400 Lucerne Blue, Blue Deluxe interior - My first car! '73 Firebird 350/4-speed Black on Black, mix & match. |
#22
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Yeah, less oil and the very thin oils will produce more power, but as the old saying goes - to finish first , first you have to finish.
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#23
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I thought the newer one where they tested the oil pans was even more mindblowing. They made like 35+ HP IIRC with an oil pan swap.
Ill never buy a pan again that doesn't have a big kickout.
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1967 Firebird 462 580hp/590ftlbs 1962 Pontiac Catalina Safari Swapped in Turd of an Olds 455 Owner/Creator Catfish Motorsports https://www.youtube.com/@CatfishMotorsports |
#24
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This is the street section here ..... I suggest if one likes their motor just fill it to the specified capacity and drive it. I don't have the money to roll those dice. Live to race another day!
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"I know just enough to keep me here, but not enough to get me out" |
#25
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I've seen every episode of Engine Masters.
There is some pretty good stuff presented there by three fairly normal people, that are for the most part, not trying to sell you something. Well, Amsoil, early on..... They note in most cases, "this is how we did it and what the results are. Your results may vary".
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frittering and wasting the hours in an off hand way.... 1969 GTO, 455ci, 230/236 Pontiac Dude's "Butcher Special" Comp hyd roller cam with Crower HIPPO solid roller lifters, Q-jet, Edelbrock P4B-QJ, Doug's headers, ported 6X-8 (97cc) heads, TKO600, 3.73 geared Eaton Tru-Trac 8.5", hydroboost, rear disc brakes......and my greatest mechanical feat....a new heater core. |
#26
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That's why we test. Doesn't really matter if it's street or race, aeration is aeration and never a good thing.
You really need a dyno to test these things, and someone running it that knows what they are doing. I don't recommend you guys just take your street cars and start lowering the oil level on a whim. The pressure needs to be monitored during a run to know what's going on. Some engines vary and may not see much of anything. Dad's engine was a specific case of having a very large crank that in most cases, no one is using that I'm aware of, especially on the street. Tony, who has decades of experience building some of the best engines in the country, knew right from the start this was going to be a potential issue. Avoiding aeration is the main goal, picking up HP is an added bonus. Yes it's primarily a street car that sees the track a couple times a year for fun. I went back and looked at receipts and dyno sessions. It's been 6 1/2 years now, logged thousands of street miles and numerous trips to the track. It's running perfectly fine with the oil level that Tony determined to be safe. Another point to make, this little trick, if you want to call it that, I have a pretty good feeling it's likely also the reason why a PCV system works perfectly fine in this engine while others complain a PCV doesn't work in these big 4.5" and larger (4.75" in dad's case) crank stroker builds, and why even Butler doesn't recommend running a PCV. Yet it's worked fine in this application. |
#27
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The owners manual for my 67 Catalina with the 325 HP engine said the oil capacity was 6 quarts without the filter. The manual for my 79 Trans am said 5 quarts without the filter. The pans are virtually the same.
As for running an Accusump, I used one one my stock car, Because I was more worried about cooling the valve train, I never restricted the oil to the top. What I liked was that you could pre oil the engine before it was started along with not starving the engine on those long straights on the 1/2 mile low banked tracks
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1979 Trans Am WS-6 .030 455 zero decked flat pistons 96 heads with SS valves 041 cam with Rhoads lifters 1.65 rockers RPM rods 800 Cliffs Q Jet on Holley Street Dominator ST-10 4 speed (3.42 first) w 2.73 rear gear __________________________________________________ _______________________________ 469th TFS Korat Thailand 1968-69 F-4E Muzzle 2 |
#28
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I guess depends on getting that last HP and what kind of racing. Road race oil cooling becomes an issue.
With E heads and my Milodon road race pan hitting the brakes hard at the big end even with a full pan the pressure would drop. My Cantons no issue.
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Skip Fix 1978 Trans Am original owner 10.99 @ 124 pump gas 455 E heads, NO Bird ever! 1981 Black SE Trans Am stockish 6X 400ci, turbo 301 on a stand 1965 GTO 4 barrel 3 speed project 2004 GTO Pulse Red stock motor computer tune 13.43@103.4 1964 Impala SS 409/470ci 600 HP stroker project 1979 Camaro IAII Edelbrock head 500" 695 HP 10.33@132 3595lbs |
#29
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Quote:
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68 GTO,3860# Stock Original 400/M-20 Muncie,3.55’s 13.86 @ 100 Old combo: 462 10.75 CR,,SD 330CFM Round Port E's,Old Faithful cam,Jim Hand Continental,3.42's. 1968 Pontiac GTO : 11.114 @ 120.130 MPH New combo: 517 MR-1,10.8 CR,SD 350CFM E's,QFT 950/Northwind,246/252 HR,9.5” 4000 stall,3.42's 636HP/654TQ 1.452 10.603 @ 125.09 http://www.dragtimes.com/Pontiac-GTO...lip-31594.html |
#30
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Science of oil slosh.
https://blog.cantonracingproducts.co...waAtzQEALw_wcB Oil Pan Capacity - Too Much vs Not Enough https://blog.cantonracingproducts.co...-vs-not-enough On the Canton web site they will state '6 quart system capacity'. From that they mean 5 quarts for the pan itself and allowing 1 quart for a oil filter. .
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'70 TA / 505 cid / same engine but revised ( previous best 10.63 at 127.05 ) Old information here: http://www.hotrod.com/articles/0712p...tiac-trans-am/ Sponsor of the world's fastest Pontiac powered Ford Fairmont (engine) 5.14 at 140 mph (1/8 mile) , true 10.5 tire, stock type suspension https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDoJnIP3HgE Last edited by Steve C.; 07-06-2020 at 02:11 PM. |
#31
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Quote:
I ask because with the Holley Sniper, oil pressure can be monitored and data logged during a run to see exactly what it's doing. On dad's with his Moroso pan, there is no baffling in it at all, it's just open. His pressures have been rock solid, no problems at the track. He runs the old E heads too that are said to have oil drain issues. We've never seen any problems with it at all. |
#32
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Quote:
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68 GTO,3860# Stock Original 400/M-20 Muncie,3.55’s 13.86 @ 100 Old combo: 462 10.75 CR,,SD 330CFM Round Port E's,Old Faithful cam,Jim Hand Continental,3.42's. 1968 Pontiac GTO : 11.114 @ 120.130 MPH New combo: 517 MR-1,10.8 CR,SD 350CFM E's,QFT 950/Northwind,246/252 HR,9.5” 4000 stall,3.42's 636HP/654TQ 1.452 10.603 @ 125.09 http://www.dragtimes.com/Pontiac-GTO...lip-31594.html |
#33
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Quote:
Milodon lists one for 4.500 and that's about close enough to make work. Not looking for anything with kickouts. |
#34
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I used to spend a lot of time during the summer around stock / superstock guys. We were at Maple Grove one year with heads up class eliminations. More than a few guys were dumping a quart of oil.
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#35
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I couldn’t say for sure. The section in front of the sump looks like a stock pan so with an arm that long it would probably be tight.
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68 GTO,3860# Stock Original 400/M-20 Muncie,3.55’s 13.86 @ 100 Old combo: 462 10.75 CR,,SD 330CFM Round Port E's,Old Faithful cam,Jim Hand Continental,3.42's. 1968 Pontiac GTO : 11.114 @ 120.130 MPH New combo: 517 MR-1,10.8 CR,SD 350CFM E's,QFT 950/Northwind,246/252 HR,9.5” 4000 stall,3.42's 636HP/654TQ 1.452 10.603 @ 125.09 http://www.dragtimes.com/Pontiac-GTO...lip-31594.html |
#36
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I have a friend that was hardcore into VW racing if he knew things were tight in a division race he would empty the transaxle oil and loosen the gen / fan belt so it would fly off on the run had to have it on and turning at the beginning,
Dont remember him dropping eng oil level tho.
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A man who falls for everything stands for nothing. |
#37
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Thanks
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#38
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I've heard stories when super stock drag racers try to set a national record they drain all of the oil before the run.
Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk |
#39
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This pan from Steffs hold 6.7 qts in the pan + filter so I will start out with 7.5 qts on the break in and run 7 qts total when racing.
Steffs Comp Eliminator pans hold only 3 qts. Dry sumps hold no more than 1 qt of oil and the dry sump pump creates it own vacuums so thats kinda cool. In talking to Stan about dropping oil levels he say people do drop a couple qts to get you a tenth, but how much do you like your engine ? This pan fits in a stock 69 A body and has your oil control issues covered. And actually gives you 10-15 HP. Its 800$ and worth every penny IMO. More power and engine longevity, win-win. |
#40
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Dragncar.... nice looking pan!
What is the outside dimensions for the sump length and width at the bottom ? And the depth for the sump from the pan rail to the bottom ? .
__________________
'70 TA / 505 cid / same engine but revised ( previous best 10.63 at 127.05 ) Old information here: http://www.hotrod.com/articles/0712p...tiac-trans-am/ Sponsor of the world's fastest Pontiac powered Ford Fairmont (engine) 5.14 at 140 mph (1/8 mile) , true 10.5 tire, stock type suspension https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDoJnIP3HgE Last edited by Steve C.; 07-08-2020 at 06:46 PM. |
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