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  #21  
Old 07-06-2020, 02:45 AM
Will Will is offline
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Interesting.

My Milodon Road Race pan takes about 7 qts to read full on the dipstick. I just always assumed I needed to fill it to that level, but I can see how 6qts would be just fine and possibly free up some power. Of course, I'm not trying to set any records at the track, just want my engine to live a good, long life. Less aeration would seem to contribute to that but how fine is that line between "not enough oil" and "more than you need?"

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  #22  
Old 07-06-2020, 05:08 AM
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Yeah, less oil and the very thin oils will produce more power, but as the old saying goes - to finish first , first you have to finish.

  #23  
Old 07-06-2020, 08:07 AM
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I thought the newer one where they tested the oil pans was even more mindblowing. They made like 35+ HP IIRC with an oil pan swap.

Ill never buy a pan again that doesn't have a big kickout.

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  #24  
Old 07-06-2020, 08:14 AM
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This is the street section here ..... I suggest if one likes their motor just fill it to the specified capacity and drive it. I don't have the money to roll those dice. Live to race another day!

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  #25  
Old 07-06-2020, 09:39 AM
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I've seen every episode of Engine Masters.
There is some pretty good stuff presented there by three fairly normal people, that are for the most part, not trying to sell you something. Well, Amsoil, early on.....
They note in most cases, "this is how we did it and what the results are. Your results may vary".

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  #26  
Old 07-06-2020, 10:07 AM
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That's why we test. Doesn't really matter if it's street or race, aeration is aeration and never a good thing.
You really need a dyno to test these things, and someone running it that knows what they are doing. I don't recommend you guys just take your street cars and start lowering the oil level on a whim. The pressure needs to be monitored during a run to know what's going on. Some engines vary and may not see much of anything.

Dad's engine was a specific case of having a very large crank that in most cases, no one is using that I'm aware of, especially on the street. Tony, who has decades of experience building some of the best engines in the country, knew right from the start this was going to be a potential issue. Avoiding aeration is the main goal, picking up HP is an added bonus.

Yes it's primarily a street car that sees the track a couple times a year for fun. I went back and looked at receipts and dyno sessions. It's been 6 1/2 years now, logged thousands of street miles and numerous trips to the track. It's running perfectly fine with the oil level that Tony determined to be safe.
Another point to make, this little trick, if you want to call it that, I have a pretty good feeling it's likely also the reason why a PCV system works perfectly fine in this engine while others complain a PCV doesn't work in these big 4.5" and larger (4.75" in dad's case) crank stroker builds, and why even Butler doesn't recommend running a PCV. Yet it's worked fine in this application.

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  #27  
Old 07-06-2020, 10:26 AM
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The owners manual for my 67 Catalina with the 325 HP engine said the oil capacity was 6 quarts without the filter. The manual for my 79 Trans am said 5 quarts without the filter. The pans are virtually the same.

As for running an Accusump, I used one one my stock car, Because I was more worried about cooling the valve train, I never restricted the oil to the top. What I liked was that you could pre oil the engine before it was started along with not starving the engine on those long straights on the 1/2 mile low banked tracks

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  #28  
Old 07-06-2020, 12:09 PM
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I guess depends on getting that last HP and what kind of racing. Road race oil cooling becomes an issue.

With E heads and my Milodon road race pan hitting the brakes hard at the big end even with a full pan the pressure would drop. My Cantons no issue.

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  #29  
Old 07-06-2020, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Formulajones View Post
Another point to make, this little trick, if you want to call it that, I have a pretty good feeling it's likely also the reason why a PCV system works perfectly fine in this engine while others complain a PCV doesn't work in these big 4.5" and larger (4.75" in dad's case) crank stroker builds, and why even Butler doesn't recommend running a PCV. Yet it's worked fine in this application.
This is interesting to me since I'm one of those that has had to get creative to run a PCV without pulling a bunch of oil. Running a Canton road race pan with no scrapper or windage tray that calls for 6 qts. but usually is filled to 6-1/2 to 7. Maybe I'll try 5-1/2 but I'd still be worried about what happens to the level in a running car at higher rpm. It's probably alot different that what goes on in the pan of an engine running on a dyno where it's motionless and not subjected to any g forces from cornering or acceleration.

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68 GTO,3860#
Stock Original 400/M-20 Muncie,3.55’s
13.86 @ 100
Old combo:
462 10.75 CR,,SD 330CFM Round Port E's,Old Faithful cam,Jim Hand Continental,3.42's.
1968 Pontiac GTO : 11.114 @ 120.130 MPH

New combo:
517 MR-1,10.8 CR,SD 350CFM E's,QFT 950/Northwind,246/252 HR,9.5” 4000 stall,3.42's
636HP/654TQ
1.452 10.603 @ 125.09
http://www.dragtimes.com/Pontiac-GTO...lip-31594.html
  #30  
Old 07-06-2020, 02:05 PM
Steve C. Steve C. is offline
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Science of oil slosh.

https://blog.cantonracingproducts.co...waAtzQEALw_wcB

Oil Pan Capacity - Too Much vs Not Enough

https://blog.cantonracingproducts.co...-vs-not-enough


On the Canton web site they will state '6 quart system capacity'. From that they mean 5 quarts for the pan itself and allowing 1 quart for a oil filter.


.

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Last edited by Steve C.; 07-06-2020 at 02:11 PM.
  #31  
Old 07-06-2020, 02:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TCSGTO View Post
This is interesting to me since I'm one of those that has had to get creative to run a PCV without pulling a bunch of oil. Running a Canton road race pan with no scrapper or windage tray that calls for 6 qts. but usually is filled to 6-1/2 to 7. Maybe I'll try 5-1/2 but I'd still be worried about what happens to the level in a running car at higher rpm. It's probably alot different that what goes on in the pan of an engine running on a dyno where it's motionless and not subjected to any g forces from cornering or acceleration.
Didn't you install a Sniper?? Or am I thinking of someone else?

I ask because with the Holley Sniper, oil pressure can be monitored and data logged during a run to see exactly what it's doing.

On dad's with his Moroso pan, there is no baffling in it at all, it's just open. His pressures have been rock solid, no problems at the track. He runs the old E heads too that are said to have oil drain issues.
We've never seen any problems with it at all.

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  #32  
Old 07-06-2020, 06:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Formulajones View Post
Didn't you install a Sniper?? Or am I thinking of someone else?

I ask because with the Holley Sniper, oil pressure can be monitored and data logged during a run to see exactly what it's doing.

On dad's with his Moroso pan, there is no baffling in it at all, it's just open. His pressures have been rock solid, no problems at the track. He runs the old E heads too that are said to have oil drain issues.
We've never seen any problems with it at all.
No Sniper here but I’ve thought about it. SD Dave massaged the oil returns and it does seem to help some. There are also tapped holes in the rear of the heads for oil return lines but I’ve never used them. The Canton pan has a baffle and trap doors so it might be ok to run it slightly lower.

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68 GTO,3860#
Stock Original 400/M-20 Muncie,3.55’s
13.86 @ 100
Old combo:
462 10.75 CR,,SD 330CFM Round Port E's,Old Faithful cam,Jim Hand Continental,3.42's.
1968 Pontiac GTO : 11.114 @ 120.130 MPH

New combo:
517 MR-1,10.8 CR,SD 350CFM E's,QFT 950/Northwind,246/252 HR,9.5” 4000 stall,3.42's
636HP/654TQ
1.452 10.603 @ 125.09
http://www.dragtimes.com/Pontiac-GTO...lip-31594.html
  #33  
Old 07-06-2020, 06:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TCSGTO View Post
No Sniper here but I’ve thought about it. SD Dave massaged the oil returns and it does seem to help some. There are also tapped holes in the rear of the heads for oil return lines but I’ve never used them. The Canton pan has a baffle and trap doors so it might be ok to run it slightly lower.
While on the subject, any mention of the Canton you're running clearing 4.750 cranks?

Milodon lists one for 4.500 and that's about close enough to make work.

Not looking for anything with kickouts.

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  #34  
Old 07-06-2020, 07:03 PM
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I used to spend a lot of time during the summer around stock / superstock guys. We were at Maple Grove one year with heads up class eliminations. More than a few guys were dumping a quart of oil.

  #35  
Old 07-06-2020, 08:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Formulajones View Post
While on the subject, any mention of the Canton you're running clearing 4.750 cranks?

Milodon lists one for 4.500 and that's about close enough to make work.

Not looking for anything with kickouts.
I couldn’t say for sure. The section in front of the sump looks like a stock pan so with an arm that long it would probably be tight.

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68 GTO,3860#
Stock Original 400/M-20 Muncie,3.55’s
13.86 @ 100
Old combo:
462 10.75 CR,,SD 330CFM Round Port E's,Old Faithful cam,Jim Hand Continental,3.42's.
1968 Pontiac GTO : 11.114 @ 120.130 MPH

New combo:
517 MR-1,10.8 CR,SD 350CFM E's,QFT 950/Northwind,246/252 HR,9.5” 4000 stall,3.42's
636HP/654TQ
1.452 10.603 @ 125.09
http://www.dragtimes.com/Pontiac-GTO...lip-31594.html
  #36  
Old 07-06-2020, 08:42 PM
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I have a friend that was hardcore into VW racing if he knew things were tight in a division race he would empty the transaxle oil and loosen the gen / fan belt so it would fly off on the run had to have it on and turning at the beginning,
Dont remember him dropping eng oil level tho.

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  #37  
Old 07-06-2020, 09:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TCSGTO View Post
I couldn’t say for sure. The section in front of the sump looks like a stock pan so with an arm that long it would probably be tight.
Thanks

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  #38  
Old 07-08-2020, 01:01 PM
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I've heard stories when super stock drag racers try to set a national record they drain all of the oil before the run.

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  #39  
Old 07-08-2020, 05:12 PM
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This pan from Steffs hold 6.7 qts in the pan + filter so I will start out with 7.5 qts on the break in and run 7 qts total when racing.
Steffs Comp Eliminator pans hold only 3 qts. Dry sumps hold no more than 1 qt of oil and the dry sump pump creates it own vacuums so thats kinda cool.
In talking to Stan about dropping oil levels he say people do drop a couple qts to get you a tenth, but how much do you like your engine ?
This pan fits in a stock 69 A body and has your oil control issues covered. And actually gives you 10-15 HP. Its 800$ and worth every penny IMO. More power and engine longevity, win-win.
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  #40  
Old 07-08-2020, 06:07 PM
Steve C. Steve C. is offline
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Dragncar.... nice looking pan!

What is the outside dimensions for the sump length and width at the bottom ? And the depth for the sump from the pan rail to the bottom ?


.

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'70 TA / 505 cid / same engine but revised ( previous best 10.63 at 127.05 )
Old information here:
http://www.hotrod.com/articles/0712p...tiac-trans-am/

Sponsor of the world's fastest Pontiac powered Ford Fairmont (engine)
5.14 at 140 mph (1/8 mile) , true 10.5 tire, stock type suspension
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDoJnIP3HgE

Last edited by Steve C.; 07-08-2020 at 06:46 PM.
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