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Pontiac - Boost Turbo, supercharged, Nitrous, EFI & other Power Adders discussed here. |
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#21
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I wish him luck...
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My Half AN Injun..... |
#22
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Quote:
I wish him luck...
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My Half AN Injun..... |
#23
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I dont know why this posted twice . Sorry about that..
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My Half AN Injun..... |
#24
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Forum software has done this to me a few times lately Charlie, I just delete the second post as you are with-in the time limit to remove it when you first see it (believe that edit time is one hour). It did it to me as I made this post. I just removed it a minute ago.
Tom V.
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"Engineers do stuff for reasons" Tom Vaught Despite small distractions, there are those who will go Forward, Learning, Sharing Knowledge, Doing what they can to help others move forward. |
#25
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Interested to see what the power output will be and if Intake Air Charge is kept in check using just the Sniper EFI. I have been brainstorming the idea of a Turbocharger setup in my car, but have also tossed around the idea of a supercharger, given the ease of installation over the turbo. How much of a costs difference is there between the two, and what about maintenance for both as well? I'm running FiTech EFI so the data from this test interest me.
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1980 Trans Am - Street/Strip 462 Best: 7.08@95 with 1.49 60' in the 1/8th. 11.17@119.8 in the 1/4. N/A, 3700 lbs, 3.42's, Pump Gas. Admin of Pure Pontiac Powered Outlaws on Facebook. |
#26
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In simple terms when you are dealing with a Belt Driven Supercharger, like a Vortech Unit, then you have a given cost because you are only messing with the intake side of things.
With a Turbo system you are dealing with both Intake and Exhaust parts and most likely can double the fabrication time and plumbing costs. With the Supercharger parts already designed and for the most part trial fitted to the Pontiac engine you can install the system in a week-end (if you are an expert at doing them or at most a couple of week-ends). Turbocharger installations and fabrication costs can be a lot higher in cost and longer in time to get to a engine you can fire up on a test stand. Tom V. About as simple as I can make it.
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"Engineers do stuff for reasons" Tom Vaught Despite small distractions, there are those who will go Forward, Learning, Sharing Knowledge, Doing what they can to help others move forward. |
#27
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Im thinking 830, I hope it makes more but the 1 5/8 headers might cost it some power. I also think the boost psi # might be higher than expected with the reversion.
I say this because I had a vortech t-trim on a 351w and I went from 1 5/8 shorties to 1 3/4 longtubes and the boost dropped a few psi and I had to re-tune the carb. |
#28
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It peaked at 749 Ft-lbs at 5700 and it peaked at 832 Hp at 5900.
The pulls were done at 180 to 195 degree engine water temperature to simulate in car temperatures. The temperature probe in the intake manifold getting cooled by all that fuel ran at 64 degrees F under full load. The MAT sensor in the Sniper unit read 84 degrees F. The torque curve is fairly flat, averaging 700+ Ft-lbs from 4200 to 6000 rpm. Hp curve was linear going up at a constant angle to 6000 rpm. All in all for a 6X-4 head that flows 165 on the intake and 112 on the exhaust I think it did OK. The C firing order camshaft really helped smooth the engine out and allowed it to pull to 6000 rpm. The Vortech V-7 series blower is a bad little blower at 13.5 to 14 psi of boost pressure. Like anything we learned more then we knew before the test, still more to learn going forward. |
The Following User Says Thank You to LPI For This Useful Post: | ||
#29
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Great results, thanks for sharing. And the two Toms were almost dead on with their estimates!
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'65 Tempest 467 3650# 11.30@120.31 |
#30
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Thank you Scott and Charlie, sorry if I mislead you Charlie on the numbers, we rarely ever go over 14 lbs. of boost with a stock two bolt main block.
I am not sure that most folks understand the amount of experience and knowledge both Tom's posses. They have done more then we will ever do. On another note we have an engine builder down in Texas that installed a Procharger D1Sc on a 462 Pontiac build. Spinning the motor to 5300 rpm, with an 8:1 compression ratio, at 7 lbs of boost with a Sniper EFI it made 610 ftlbs/600 Hp. This had E-heads. Based on these numbers it would be a similar outcome. With that said the boost is very consistent as far as boost pressure and power gains in the Pontiac engine platform. As far as centrifugal (belt driven turbo) supercharger compared to a exhaust driven turbocharger system, the supercharger has many benefits: 1. Ease of installation (A customer can bolt this kit on in 1.5 hours) 2. Can utilize existing headers and or exhaust system 3. Can use a BT carburetor versus going directly to fuel injection We have been working on a turbocharger system with "cost effective" manifolds. Even in this case the development cost and time to make a complete ready to bolt on kit to date has doubled the development for the supercharger kits. And it is still not a reality yet. We won't give up but we also will not compromise the cost factor as well as the quality and reliability. Stay tune...it is going to get really interesting in the "boost" world for our beloved Pontiac's! If anyone has a question please feel free to ask on this thread or call or email us. We have nothing to hide and there is no black magic, just good ole physics in play. |
#31
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How much, if at all, would having this engine installed in a closed engine compartment affect the intake temp numbers you observed? Would heat soak make it a short distance cruiser with no intercooler?
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'65 Tempest 467 3650# 11.30@120.31 |
#32
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Quote:
Good luck with what you're looking too achieve..
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My Half AN Injun..... |
#33
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70Bird was right there with his HP number too.
All three of us have a lot of time invested in street driven Pontiacs. Tom V.
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"Engineers do stuff for reasons" Tom Vaught Despite small distractions, there are those who will go Forward, Learning, Sharing Knowledge, Doing what they can to help others move forward. |
#34
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With the DCI Ram Air V Heads being 1 Inch Taller, will this effect your bracketry or Supercharger installation? Steve Page |
#35
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Steve,
If the end head bolts are in the factory location and the head is just larger then yes the brackets will bolt right up but the volute may hit the valve cover or head. In the original post the headers listed were 1 5/8". The actual header size is 1 3/4". We had zero reversion in the intake, mostly due to the camshaft overlap. Charlie, if you have any input as to your experience or though as to why the switch to a cast iron head versus the E-head did not as we also predicted increased the restriction and the boost pressure. Thank you to all of you for the questions, comments and the continuing conversation on boost for the beloved Pontiac engine. Scott, Air intake temperature will affect the process of air in, compression and air out but we feel the amount of fuel being sprayed along with the Holley Sniper fuel spray pattern that under WOT we should still benefit from the fuel cooling. How much we will have to see once the engine is installed and running in the vehicle. On the run stand on an 86 degree day with the relative humidity at 87% at 600 feet altitude we saw air temps of 65 degrees F at the MAT sensor in the Sniper unit up to 2400 rpm (no load). The MAT sensor in the Sniper unit is above the throttle blades, so no cooling affect from the fuel per say. The engine during the dyno testing was run with water temperatures in the 178 to 194 degree F range. We figured that the cylinder head temperature should match a running vehicle. We had a huge advantage at this dyno facility with the type and amount of instrumentation and thus real time data produced during each pull. This allowed us to see in real time the possibility of detonation. Technology has come so far compared to a basic distributor and a carburetor. We picked up 110 ftlbs just by modifying (adding or subtracting) fuel and timing in small areas across the 31x31 matrix. No offense to anyone considered "a tuner" but this really is not rocket science. Anyone with a dyno or a lot of in car "seat" time can easily tune a car safely as long as you take it in baby steps and you have a basic understanding of fuel, spark and load. We were changing fuel and timing points by .01 increments, it really can be affected by small increments across the whole spectrum. Not to beat a dead horse or put people on pedestals but there are many folks on the PY board that have a vast amount of knowledge on performance engine design and tuning. If you actually either listen or read what they post, you can learn a tremendous amount about increasing the power output of your project without damaging anything. Probably one of the most interesting experiences next to watching "Double D" Matt tune (He is a master tuner for Mega Squirt) his big Hp twin turbo Goodwin Hemi engine for the Dart. (side note: Fellow Rich Guido Canadian drag racer Matt Blasco) The amount of data that can be recorded and the amount of "advanced" ICF modules in the Holley software let you create lots of fail safes based on the closed loop system. The other key aspect which allowed the engine to handle the load induced by the supercharger is basically oil pressure or more specifically oil film density. On this motor we tightened up all of the crankshaft clearances and used the new coated King main bearing for the Pontiac 3" main as well as the coated King BBC bearings. With other bearing manufacturers it generally takes two sets of main bearings and three sets of rod bearings to get the exact clearance across the entire crankshaft. When utilizing the King bearings we used only one set of main bearings (good crankshafts are golden) and only two sets of rod bearings. All of the clearances were held to +/- .0002". We held the clearance size to this high of a standard to ensure that we did not introduce "air" into the oil circuit do to fluctuating oil film thickness flow. It really is a great time to be involved in the Pontiac hobby. |
#36
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Thanks for posting results and answering questions. If you can't tell, I'm trying to gather from the info whether this would be possible with injectors at the port. I'm not going back to injected at the throttle body. But if it could work without an intercooler with what I have, it's a possibility for me. I hope you'll report back the results of some in car testing.
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'65 Tempest 467 3650# 11.30@120.31 |
#37
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#38
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Scott,
You are in luck, round three is the same long block with some minor changes. One of the changes will be a Holley HP system with a single throttle body and port injection. At this time we will be trying out the new V-7 YSi-B with the improved billet impeller. The goal is to see if we can make reliable power without the use of an intercooler or water-meth injection. Stay tune... |
#39
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Will do!
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'65 Tempest 467 3650# 11.30@120.31 |
#40
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Charlie, if you have any input as to your experience or though as to why the switch to a cast iron head versus the E-head did not as we also predicted increased the restriction and the boost pressure.
Mark what are the differences in size between the first cam and this one just used?
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My Half AN Injun..... |
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