#61  
Old 01-29-2020, 11:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Davis View Post
I had it wrong, the guys name was Wilbert Thornton.
Anyone know this car?
What happened to the pic???
Here it is. Assuming the pic you posted is with an older paint job, since it shows that Winston was still a sponsor.

He qualified #31 at this race last Oct.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...UMMIT#indextop
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Last edited by ponyakr; 01-29-2020 at 11:29 PM.
  #62  
Old 01-29-2020, 11:29 PM
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Can't believe he is still racing that car. I took that pic around 1987-88.

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  #63  
Old 01-29-2020, 11:56 PM
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OK, we've established that lots of SS cars ran the 455HO & SD455 engines.

But, there have also been lots of 400 powered SS cars.

I've already shown some real early 400 Birds. One of the popular "Big Tire" '68 SS Birds, was the one raced by Roy & Mike McKinney. Don't have a record of any of their wins. Mike's son now runs the car in bracket races.

Joel Larkin ran a '67 SS Bird. Did a search, and the last race I can find him is at the May '17 div 3 Lucas Oil race. Don't know how much he's raced the car, since then.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2017#indextop
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Last edited by ponyakr; 01-30-2020 at 12:29 AM.
  #64  
Old 01-30-2020, 12:46 AM
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John Angeles built some '68 & '69 SS Birds. Don't have any results for the '68's.

But, his daughter Keri, is still racing the '69. I think it's now common knowledge that Keri made the 1st non-GT, 400 Pontiac powered 9 sec pass. Since that time, she has made passes well down into the 9 sec zone. So, I suppose I can safely say, it is the quickest 400 powered non-GT SS car, ever.

Really can't name another that has even broke into the 9's, tho with the 400 powered Stockers that have & can run low 10's, it should be pretty easy for somebody to build one that will run 9's.

I suppose the only Pontiac powered non-GT cars that have run quicker are the Clegg SD455 powered '73 & '74 stick cars.
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  #65  
Old 01-30-2020, 01:15 AM
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I suppose Carroll Warling has one of the quickest & most well known 400 powered A-body SS cars ever. It held the SS/MA nat record for a while.

He's run it with a Lemans nose, a Grand Am nose, and in both reg SS & GT SS.

I think he has also been running the same '74 400 engine in his '74 GTO GT car.
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  #66  
Old 01-30-2020, 01:38 AM
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And, speakin of '74 GTO's, I suppose Bill Rink has the quickest one to ever run reg SS. It has run mid 10's, has won class at Indy, several times, & has run more than a sec under its index, many times.

It was originally a sort of burgundy color. He had it painted red a few years back.
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  #67  
Old 01-30-2020, 02:06 AM
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Right off the bat, I can't think of a '75 or '76 Pontiac powered SS car. But, I suspect there have been quite a few '77's & '78's. I've already mentioned the '78 Ken Shawver SS Bird, which won class at Indy & ran near the top of LOTS of qualifying lists, for many years.

One of the quickest '77 SS Birds, is the 350 powered '77 Formy, owned by Mike Morgan. It has won class at Indy, & was RU to Bill Rink a couple of times. Not sure which car has actually turned the quickest time.

Before Mike got it, it was raced by East Coast racer Sal Piacentini. Just pulled up this race where Sal qualified at 1.057 under.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCStory.asp?ID=124455

At the '18 US Nats, Mike turned a 10.617, which was 1.233 under. That ain't too shabby, for a little Pontiac 350 ! It was good enuff for #11, in the 128 car field.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2018#indextop
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Last edited by ponyakr; 01-30-2020 at 02:18 AM.
  #68  
Old 01-30-2020, 09:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ponyakr View Post
We've already mentioned that Truman Fields ran a '72 GTO in SS. I think it was a factory sponsored deal.

Gary Moore also ran SS in '72, with a '72 Formy. He set the speed record, at Amarillo, in '72.

Don Breen was running a '71 Formy in SS. He was mentioned as winning a SS race, in a Lunati ad.

Also have a pic of another '72 SS Formy, with Burnett Pontiac on the side. You can tell this was back before the big tire SS cars. I think the tire rule was that you could run the biggest tire that would fit in the stock wheel well.

Assuming all these cars were running the 455HO engine.

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ID:	530616 Don, I updated the thread with this car unit, 70-72 GTO section. My good friend owned from 1980-2012. Best thing about it was.....I got to work on it, he was getting it ready to sell. Thankfully it’s in good hands, now!

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Last edited by 77 TRASHCAN; 01-30-2020 at 09:59 PM.
  #69  
Old 01-31-2020, 01:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 77 TRASHCAN View Post
Attachment 530616 Don, I updated the thread with this car unit, 70-72 GTO section. My good friend owned from 1980-2012. Best thing about it was.....I got to work on it, he was getting it ready to sell. Thankfully it’s in good hands, now!
Hey, that's cool !

That car is a piece of Pontiac history.

  #70  
Old 01-31-2020, 01:47 AM
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Well, we got up to the '77-'78 Birds. Right off, I can't really think of any more still running.

But I do have a pic of a Bob Michael car. Don't know how many Pontiac drag cars he's had. But, it's quite a few. Don't know where he bought this car, or where it ended up.

He mentioned it in he article I posted.

"... By 1980, Bob was restless and ready for his next Pontiac, so he sold the Firebird to raise capital to build a ’77 Trans Am for Super Stock N/Automatic and captured a pair of divisional wins early on with the car..."

In case somebody missed the article, here's a link to it.

https://dragillustrated.com/life-lon...al-to-pontiac/

Don't think we'll ever see a '79 Pontiac 400 powered Stocker or Super Stocker, since they only came with a stick. Not many stick Pontiacs running. Adam Strang & J.B. Clegg are the only two Pontiac stick racers I can think of right now. Qualifying is not a problem. But, it's hard to win breakout style racing , with a stick. That's why you see so very few stick winners. But, it wasn't always that way. I always think of Truman Fields & Mike McKinney winning at Indy, in the same '68 stick Bird. And in the '60's, there were LOTS of stick cars.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...2&MAKE=Pontiac
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Last edited by ponyakr; 01-31-2020 at 02:10 AM.
  #71  
Old 01-31-2020, 11:46 AM
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JB is still running the SD car.

Ryan Schloe is John Schloe's son. John has a 69 Bird in stock that was running RAIV heads(and in the 10s) but for the past 20 years D ports still in the 10s.

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  #72  
Old 02-01-2020, 04:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skip Fix View Post
JB is still running the SD car.

Ryan Schloe is John Schloe's son. John has a 69 Bird in stock that was running RAIV heads(and in the 10s) but for the past 20 years D ports still in the 10s.
Yeah, John & J.B. put John's old '73 back on the track. Does anybody know if they left the '74 in race-ready condition, or did they transfer some parts off it onto the '73 ?

After you posted this, I did a post about John's car, on the Stocker thread.

Ryan ran his 2nd gen in Stock, for a while, with a #66 head 455 engine. Then he switched it over to SS, for a while. I think somebody said he ran a 400 in it for SS. Wasn't real quick, but very safely under it's index.

Last season he was listed as driving a '73 Bird in F/SA. Assume it's the same car he was running, but maybe running the D-port 455. Adam Davis & Michael Brand did real good with that combo. They finally got the '71 Stock combo running between .700 & .900 under.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCStory.asp?ID=351146

Here's a couple of races where Ryan was running GT/IA, with the '71 Bird. He was #42, at both races.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2011#indextop

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2011#indextop

He was #29 at the Pomona Finals.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2011#indextop

He was running SS at the '09 Finals. #47

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2009#indextop

He was running SS/JA at the '09 Winters. #52

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2009#indextop
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Last edited by ponyakr; 02-01-2020 at 05:50 AM.
  #73  
Old 02-01-2020, 07:10 AM
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OK, we've talked about reg SS cars, up thru '78. And we've mentioned a few GT cars. But, GT cars now make up a large portion of the SS class. So, let's talk about GT cars for a while.

I think I mentioned that Don Kennedy(hereafter referred to as Don K.) says he came up with most of the GT class rules. He then sent his ideas to NHRA. They made a few tweaks on 'em, & the GT classes were born. So, unless I find out different, I'll give Don K. credit for the GT classes.

Don't know who the 1st guy was to enter a Pontiac powered GT car in a nat or div event. But, there have been quite a few Pontiac powered GT cars. I think it's a GREAT idea to be able to use Pontiac V8 engines in cars that never came with a Pontiac engine. The GT rules allow cars that were never considered high performance, become serious drag cars.

To me, the basic GT rules are pretty simple. You use the SS rules for the engine you choose. You can put a Pontiac engine into any NHRA approved GM Body. The NHRA hp factors are a little higher for GT class cars, for SOME engines, but not all. Just as an example: The '77 & '78 Pontiac 400 engines are 285hp for SS/auto, & 289hp for GT/auto. So, GT cars get 4 more hp than reg SS cars.

From what I've learned from others, the '74 400 engine is one of the most used GT engines. I'd say the alum head 428 is probably next. You can build one of those without a single GM part, I think. Several GT cars have used an SD455. But, considering the cost of SD455 heads now, I'd say that engine would not be a good choice.

Because of the price & availability of 6X heads, I'd say a '77-'78 400 would be a good choice for guys who'd like to build a GT car, but don't have a hundred grand to put into it. Lots of SS guys will get real mad if you say SS is just a bracket race, except for same-class heads-up runs.

But, as long as your car will run it's index or quicker, in any conditions, you have a chance to win any race. Obviously, if you build a slow car, & have to run a car in your class, you'll likely get beat. But, there are so many classes, that same-class heads-up runs do not happen that often.

I was very surprised by what I recently learned, about this. One of the top SS drivers is Dan Fletcher. He, by far, won more big races than anybody else, for the race results I checked. But the strange thing is that on most all qualifying sheets, he'd be very near the bottom, many times just barely quicker than his index.

Having read what the guys here post, I've gathered that they think the fastest car always has the best chance of winning a race. And I understand why they say it. BUT, what do you think Dan Fletcher would say, if you told him he should get a faster car ? When it's a dial-your-own race, you have to cut real good lights, consistently, & be able to run real close to you dial, consistently. There are some guys who can do both.

https://www.knfiltri.com/blog/nhra-w...on-of-winning/

https://classracer.com/magazine/?p=4936

https://wforadio.com/tag/dan-fletcher-100th-nhra-win/

http://www.dragraceresults.com/fulls..._Racing_Season


Last edited by ponyakr; 02-01-2020 at 07:28 AM.
  #74  
Old 02-01-2020, 08:19 AM
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Who knows what year GT class cars 1st began running at nat & div races ?

There is a LARGE number of GM bodies that would be suitable for a Pontiac powered GT car. Me being a Pontiac freek, I'd prefer a Pontiac body. But, it doesn't have to be. The quickest Pontiac powered GT car is a Cobalt, which ran an 8.90 & won the GT/AA class at Indy one year. It runs a Pontiac 428.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2016#indextop

One of my favorite GT bodies is the 3rd gen Bird. There have been a few. 4 currently running are raced by Lynn McCarty & son, Greg Meyer, Bill Kennedy, & the Burtons, Scott & Brad. Phil Monteith built one, and put his "Hatari" name on it. He built a 4th gen, and Bruce Fulper then raced that 3rd gen for a while. He won class one year at Indy, with it.

If you guys know of other Pontiac powered 3rd gen Bird GT cars, please post that info.
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  #75  
Old 02-01-2020, 08:52 AM
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I suppose the next most popular GT body is the 4th Gen Bird. The most well known is Phil Monteith's Hatari. Peter Biondo won lots of races & some SS Championships with it.

Out on the West coast, Leo Glasbrenner has one. Both those cars run the 428.

One was built by Johnny Duncan, I think. John Agneta has been driving it recently.
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  #76  
Old 02-01-2020, 09:17 AM
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Of course, you can run a Pontiac body that came with a Pontiac engine, then use an engine that didn't come in that particular model car.

We have 2 good examples of that.

Carroll Warling has a '74 GTO. I think he runs a '74 400 engine in it, probably very much like the one in his '74 Lemans. I think Norman said he is planning an iron head 428 for it this season. That'll be interesting. I think most of the 428 guys are running the NHRA legal Edelbrock alum heads.

Larry Maxwell has taken another approach. He has a small tire '68 Bird, which looks like a Stocker. He runs the '74 GTO 350 engine. So far, it hasn't been real quick. But, it always runs under it's index. That's as quick as you have to go, to win races.

Larry ran a 10.82 at the Winter Nats. That may be the quickest time I've seen. Most races he's in the low 11's.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2019#indextop
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Last edited by ponyakr; 02-01-2020 at 09:32 AM.
  #77  
Old 02-01-2020, 10:11 AM
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Some guys are using the smaller Pontiac bodies. Don K. is one of 'em. I think his car is a Sunfire. He runs an alum head 428. He also had a 3rd gen GT car with SD455 power.

The McCarty's also have a small Pontiac body. I'm not familiar with the small cars. But I assume many of ya'll know what it is. I think they too have run SD455 power. Don't know what they used the last time out. The car did run GT/AA, before the classes changed.
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  #78  
Old 02-01-2020, 10:43 AM
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I was told that Bob Bales Little GT car is Pontiac powered. A Q-list I saw listed his GT car as a '98 Grand Am.

As mentioned, these cars are Cobalts. But they do have Pontiac power. Robert Cruzen's Cobalt is the car that ran 8.90, making it the quickest Pontiac powered GT car.

Last year, Don K. won GT/EA at Indy, & Todd Frantz won GT/FA, with his Cobalt.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2019#indextop
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Last edited by ponyakr; 02-01-2020 at 11:00 AM.
  #79  
Old 02-01-2020, 11:54 AM
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Yeah, John & J.B. put John's old '73 back on the track. Does anybody know if they left the '74 in race-ready condition, or did they transfer some parts off it onto the '73 ?

I'll see what I can find out.

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  #80  
Old 02-01-2020, 10:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ponyakr View Post
Who knows what year GT class cars 1st began running at nat & div races ?

There is a LARGE number of GM bodies that would be suitable for a Pontiac powered GT car. Me being a Pontiac freek, I'd prefer a Pontiac body. But, it doesn't have to be. The quickest Pontiac powered GT car is a Cobalt, which ran an 8.90 & won the GT/AA class at Indy one year. It runs a Pontiac 428.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2016#indextop

One of my favorite GT bodies is the 3rd gen Bird. There have been a few. 4 currently running are raced by Lynn McCarty & son, Greg Meyer, Bill Kennedy, & the Burtons, Scott & Brad. Phil Monteith built one, and put his "Hatari" name on it. He built a 4th gen, and Bruce Fulper then raced that 3rd gen for a while. He won class one year at Indy, with it.

If you guys know of other Pontiac powered 3rd gen Bird GT cars, please post that info.
I don’t know the first year for GT cars, but I know that it happened be cause of Don Kennedy petitioning NHRA for that change. Got to meet Don in 1992 when our Thunder Valley, Noble Oklahoma first opened. He was racing his 3rd gen TA.

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