[Region Warrior]

Originally Posted by JZD_Fan

"Those guys never came back to visit." Meaning that you believe you've scared them so badly that they won't dare return. I guess you were able to do that with your awesomely bad stares.

Of course had you merely observed them returning from the house with a saddle, and not, say, pockets bulging with jewelry and arms full of electronics, then you would have been able to figure it out. At least your neighbors can count on you for a knee jerk reaction. Acting without thinking is no virtue.

So it's ok to steel a saddle, but not jewelry and electronics.

All my nieghbors have weapons except one widow, and they will confront suspects while waiting for police.
The widow told me to feel free to confront anyone going in or around her home or garage day or night. Home or not.
Think she would be alittle dissapointed being dead if i just took a pictures.
Nor would i give them an advantage of knowing i'm armed.

[igoslow]

Originally Posted by Wick

Where did I say I held them at gunpoint? I thought you were a trained professional that would get all facts......Was I armed? Yes. Why would I confront two guys coming out my neighbors garage with nothing more than a camera?

You can be my neighbor

And for all the confused... Texas law says you no longer have to retreat before using deadly force

[JZD_Fan]

Originally Posted by Region Warrior

So it's ok to steel a saddle, but not jewelry and electronics.

All my nieghbors have weapons except one widow, and they will confront suspects while waiting for police.
The widow told me to feel free to confront anyone going in or around her home or garage day or night. Home or not.
Think she would be alittle dissapointed being dead if i just took a pictures.
Nor would i give them an advantage of knowing i'm armed.

Did anyone say it was okay to steal a saddle?

It's not okay to steal anything.

I gave advice on how to protect yourself in case you do take someone's life while defending your person or property. One must protect their rear ends before and after a deadly force encounter, which is NOT to say that you should hestitate from defending yourself. Please tell me that you understand the distinction.

That was the gist of post #67:

"Yep. Here are the steps [to protecting yourself after you've shot someone]:

1) Thief was holding one of my knives/hammers/sharp sticks.
2) Thief said, "I'm going to f$%$ing kill you."
3) I felt as though I was in imminent danger of being harmed or killed.
4) I fired two shots center mass into thief's chest. These shots were not meant to kill thief. These shots were meant to stop thief from harming me.
5) I immediately rendered first aid. However, it took me 15 minutes to find my cell phone. I dialed 911 for EMS when I did find my phone"

Just to clarify that I am not advocating needlessly creating a dangerous situation for you or your neighbors, there is more to be said for an armed encounter, generally:

To wit, post #69:
Well let me just say that I would much prefer to get a good pic of the thief and call the cops and stay out of it. Or if confronted, I would try to see if the thief would comply with commands. (I.E., when you have someone at gunpoint, you give them loud commands. I thought everyone would be aware enough to realize that.)Barring that, you need to be in the right frame of mind in a "rock and a hard place" situation. That is that your safety comes first and everything else comes second. If he has a knife, then he has made his choice. And the things that I've listed are things that you should be thinking for later, not saying out loud. You should always keep your ass covered and your mouth shut.

In other words, 1) "Stay Safe" at all costs. This may mean taking someone's life, but hopefully not. And 2) It is never in your best interest to make a statement or admission if you are forced to take a life. I don't care what your Texas laws are, that doesn't mean you don't live where there is a district prosecutor hungry to make a name for himself.

For this, I was called a "wuss" by Wick, and now you take everything I said out of complete context, as though I'm an ACLU'er ripping down mangers in the city park... which, I assure, you, I'm not. I'd be upset if some neighborhood rump ranger thrust a gun in my son's face, and then brag about it, when he was completely wrong, by his own admission, by doing so.

[Wick]

So now I'm a rump ranger? How did you conclude that? And where did I say I thrust a gun in the kids face? I think you said something about being trained to get all of the facts, looks like you failed. I'm willing to bet you no longer hold that job.

[Region Warrior]

Originally Posted by JZD_Fan

Did anyone say it was okay to steal a saddle?

It's not okay to steal anything.

I gave advice on how to protect yourself in case you do take someone's life while defending your person or property. One must protect their rear ends before and after a deadly force encounter, which is NOT to say that you should hestitate from defending yourself. Please tell me that you understand the distinction.

That was the gist of post #67:

"Yep. Here are the steps [to protecting yourself after you've shot someone]:

1) Thief was holding one of my knives/hammers/sharp sticks.
2) Thief said, "I'm going to f$%$ing kill you."
3) I felt as though I was in imminent danger of being harmed or killed.
4) I fired two shots center mass into thief's chest. These shots were not meant to kill thief. These shots were meant to stop thief from harming me.
5) I immediately rendered first aid. However, it took me 15 minutes to find my cell phone. I dialed 911 for EMS when I did find my phone"

Just to clarify that I am not advocating needlessly creating a dangerous situation for you or your neighbors, there is more to be said for an armed encounter, generally:

To wit, post #69:
Well let me just say that I would much prefer to get a good pic of the thief and call the cops and stay out of it. Or if confronted, I would try to see if the thief would comply with commands. (I.E., when you have someone at gunpoint, you give them loud commands. I thought everyone would be aware enough to realize that.)Barring that, you need to be in the right frame of mind in a "rock and a hard place" situation. That is that your safety comes first and everything else comes second. If he has a knife, then he has made his choice. And the things that I've listed are things that you should be thinking for later, not saying out loud. You should always keep your ass covered and your mouth shut.

In other words, 1) "Stay Safe" at all costs. This may mean taking someone's life, but hopefully not. And 2) It is never in your best interest to make a statement or admission if you are forced to take a life. I don't care what your Texas laws are, that doesn't mean you don't live where there is a district prosecutor hungry to make a name for himself.

For this, I was called a "wuss" by Wick, and now you take everything I said out of complete context, as though I'm an ACLU'er ripping down mangers in the city park... which, I assure, you, I'm not. I'd be upset if some neighborhood rump ranger thrust a gun in my son's face, and then brag about it, when he was completely wrong, by his own admission, by doing so.

The way you worded it made it sound like he shouldnt of confronted 2 guys walking out of a building with saddle and gear.
But would be diff if they had jewlry and electorics.
Reason why i responded.

Can see your point.
Some people shouldnt confront, but many are very capable.

I grew up with all types of firearms for hunting.
And used to go practice(sidearms) with my cop buds until some made me nervous with thier lack of caution.

Couple years ago they were seaching for 2 armed bank robbers that abandoned thier car and headed straight thru the 50000 acres behind/towards my house.
Half the 50K is wooded and thick up to my property except for our bike/snowmobile trail that comes out in my yard. Perfect escape route for them.
Waited out back 1/2 way with a loaded shotgun(#4 defender shot loads) and a sidearm.
Figured my family were safer with me in the middle.
They crossed about 5 houses down and were caught about 2 miles futher past with 2 sawed off shotguns and a sidearm.
Believe me, i would of shot 1st.

[screamingchief]

I don't care what your Texas laws are, that doesn't mean you don't live where there is a district prosecutor hungry to make a name for himself.

They would'nt waste their time with those sorta theatrics here,it just does'nt play to the people very well,and it's always the people that have the say in Texas as all use of forces cases go before a grand jury long before the DA can even consider prosecuting in a regular court of law.

95 out of 100 cases like the ones that are discussed here are "no-billed" meaning they wont indict on these sorta cases.

And prosecutors dont get diddly for play in the press on these cases either,so they just dont bother much.

I dont know where you live,but you better understand the local laws and not just assume other laws trump those laws,that's not always the case.

If you dont know/care about the laws in Texas,I suggest you dont comment on them then,as that is integral part of this discussion,as the thread starter is from this great state and others dont quite understand our laws either,thus all the in-depth debate and discussion that ensued.

And dont assume the laws here in Texas are anything like they are anywhere else,as was stated very early in this thread,they are nothing like the laws in other states.

Night and day as we say here,if it's night,your fair game if your a theiving.

[JZD_Fan]

Originally Posted by screamingchief

They would'nt waste their time with those sorta theatrics here,it just does'nt play to the people very well,and it's always the people that have the say in Texas as all use of forces cases go before a grand jury long before the DA can even consider prosecuting in a regular court of law.

95 out of 100 cases like the ones that are discussed here are "no-billed" meaning they wont indict on these sorta cases.

And prosecutors dont get diddly for play in the press on these cases either,so they just dont bother much.

I dont know where you live,but you better understand the local laws and not just assume other laws trump those laws,that's not always the case.

If you dont know/care about the laws in Texas,I suggest you dont comment on them then,as that is integral part of this discussion,as the thread starter is from this great state and others dont quite understand our laws either,thus all the in-depth debate and discussion that ensued.

And dont assume the laws here in Texas are anything like they are anywhere else,as was stated very early in this thread,they are nothing like the laws in other states.

Night and day as we say here,if it's night,your fair game if your a theiving.

One friend of mine in Texas said everything's good until you make a mistake, and then you might find yourself with the government on your back. (He's a Fed, too.)

[Wick]

crickets......

[Tom Vaught]

I just started reading this thread

Quote:

"If I had dropped them, I would have not gotten prosecuted like I did. Even the judge told me "do what you have to do to keep them there, and you are in the clear." They were over 250 feet from the road, in my building, so they were more than just checking out the ditch."

That might have worked in theory and the judge might have stated that but I will tell you that a friend of mine, (a Fireman) killed two guys stealing an outboard offshore
engine off his boat and he went through prosecution, the courts, and he lost his FFL3 license for a period of time while the case was being decided.

A lot of lost money and lost time but he eventually was freed on the charges.

You kill someone for theft and in many cities you will not just walk away vs in a farm community.

JMO

Tom V.

[Cliff R]

Tom, been following this thread from time to time as well.

No laws in any state will protect a person from using amounts of force which is/are not "reasonable for the circumstances". Also keep in mind that one can act within the boundaries of criminal law, and still be found liable in civil proceedings.

Just because there are laws in place to help us protect our property, few circumstances warrant using "deadly force" to do so. There will always be someone, someplace who will ask you if you had the ability to avoid the encounter, or seek refuge/shelter or cover in lieu of blowing their guts all over your driveway!

In all cases and in all states, deadly force should be reserved for the protection of life, to us or others, not the prevention of crimes, such as petty theft.

With that being said, I still believe that folks should use weapons to protect themselves, and their property. Bringing a gun along shows your intent to use it to stop the crime. Whether or not you choose to do so will probably be decided on a case by case basis, depending soley on the totality of the circumstances.

Each and every person will probably handle these situations differently. Bottom line is, if you plan on interacting with a theif, arm yourself first, sucks being someplace and having everyone pointing guns but you!.....Cliff

[Region Warrior]

Good points Tom and Cliff.

Dont fire a shot unless you have to.
Never shoot someone fleeing away. It could(most likely will) cost you big time.

If thier in your building, are between you and an exit, even then make sure thier facing you before killing them.
I say kill cause a dead man cant accuse or sue you in court.

An old friend tried to scare 2 nieghbor kids that kept stealing gas from his vehicles.
Came out one winter night and fired his shotgun at the ground behind them as they were running away.
The #6 bird shot ricocheted off the ground hitting them in the back and legs(4-5 pellets each).
Ended up paying hospital bills and attorney fees.

[Region Warrior]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

Bottom line is, if you plan on interacting with a theif, arm yourself first, sucks being someplace and having everyone pointing guns but you!.....Cliff

Got that right!

[Jokers69]

Check this out..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_QjEL0uUgo

[goquick]

That is why we should be able to shoot, stab, or rip an arrow though a thief. They know the law is protecting them more than thier victoms. A thief doesn't stop at only one robbery. They only get caught and arrested for only one.

[Cliff R]

Yep, pretty unfortunate that we put laws in place to protect citizens, then those that operate outside of the law can hide behind them. Most criminals now adays are smart enough to know NOT to take a weapon to a crime involving theft, as the penalties are typically much stiffer.

Personally, I like having Laws in place to allow property owners the option of using deadly force to protect there property and possessions. Not so much as to use the Law(s) to stop these crimes, but it certainly would make things a lot easier if you end up in an altercation with some POS and end up blowing their guts all over your driveway.

Most folks believe that a criminal has to be in your home before you can take action to protect yourself using deadly force. This is simply not so, it ALWAYS comes right down to whether or not you felt like your life was in jeapordy at any point during the confrontation. Where you are standing is NOT a factor is deciding whether or not to protect yourself.

Each and every situation will be somewhat different. The bottom line is, most reasonably prudent persons will ALWAYS use the minimum amount of force necessary to end the altercation. This could be as simple as a verbal command, or pointing a firearm in their direction, maybe even racking a round into a pump shotgun (EVERYONE knows exactly what this means!)

For myself, we have a big dog running loose on our property, he stays on the porch all day long, and wags his tail when we get visitors. Come around late at night, and he might just be eating you for breakfast, lunch, and dinner! Rest assured, he's going to give us PLENTY of time to get our guns ready if you come up here bent on doing no good!......Cliff

[screamingchief]

For myself, we have a big dog running loose on our property, he stays on the porch all day long, and wags his tail when we get visitors. Come around late at night, and he might just be eating you for breakfast, lunch, and dinner!

Down here the loose "guard" dog will likely get you in more trouble than just shooting the guy...

And it's definitely more risky in terms of civil liabillity,as dogs have little means to discern the legal standing of a person and/or their actions.

Again,read the Texas penal code I posted earlier in this thread,at night in Texas,you dont need to be in fear for your life,that is simply not required by the laws in place,all you need to justify the use of deadly force is the reasonable belief that the thief may posses ANY of your property,also you have the legal right to prevent their fleeing after commiting said crime,which means even if he is fleeing you can chase him across five counties and shoot him in the back if your believe that is what you need to do to detain him for the authorities,or to retrieve your property,and the law clearly states you would be well within your rights.

True it does'nt protect you from civil liabillity,but it makes it damn hard to win those cases in our courts.

And you'd better not kill any innocent bystanders or you will truly be up a creek without a paddle...

Again,this is why almost all moveable property thefts by professional thieves happen in broad daylight down here,as ya'll state the thieves know the law,and they know damn well they are safer during the day as opposed to doing their work at night where the law states they're fair game.

Like I said,the law is "night and day" in Texas,especially when compared to any other states.

We also just passed the "stand your ground" laws too,so folks have some more legal standing for the use of deadly force to protect themselves or others at home,in their car,or at their office/work place,but that law does little to help them to protect their property from thieves during daylight hours.

The bottom line is, most reasonably prudent persons will ALWAYS use the minimum amount of force necessary to end the altercation.

Agree 100%.

Just because we in Texas may have certain rights not afforded folks in most other states,that does'nt mean were all trigger happy Bubba's out to gun down some hapless thief we catch in the act,fact is if a theft is happening at night,the odds are the theft is likely being perpetrated by amateur teenage thieves who dont know,or dont care the risk they take in doing such a stupid thing.

[Jokers69]

Just because we in Texas may have certain rights not afforded folks in most other states,that does'nt mean were all trigger happy Bubba's

Damn.. Damn... WTF??
well, at least there's still Santa and the Easter Bunny..

[screamingchief]

well, at least there's still Santa and the Easter Bunny..

Maybe,,,that is unless they try coming around after dark!!!

Then it's ping,ping,ping,ricochet rabbit!

LOL...

[igoslow]

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?se...cal&id=5702495

Think they would have ran from a cell phone?

[Cliff R]

SC, I like all of it except for the part about chasing them across 5 counties. That puts EVERYONE in danger, yourself, the crooks, and everyone you encounter along the way. Most Law Enforcement agencies these days have very strict rules for their officers concerning high speed chases. Innocent bystanders are more likely to get killed or injured due to high speed chases, than those who were trying to get away!

Location has a lot to do with being "targeted" by criminals. Here, we sit WAY back off the road, lots of woods, long driveway, you have to pass the house before you get to the shop, big barking dog running around, and we sit up away from the main road, which is a dirt road.

All of these things reduce the chance of being targeted by criminals, they usually look for easier opportunities first. Around here they break into old Churches that sit way out in the country, and occassionally small businesses in remote areas. Pretty low crime area in the first place, although just 60 miles away in Columbus, murder and break-ins are nearly out of control!.......Cliff