[455Grandville]

Originally Posted by Overkillphil

2.74, 1.57, 1.1, 0.67

Depends on what the trans is out of originally. 86-up are the best ones, needing the least upgrades with a stock engine. But even with a stock engine, I would do some std. upgrades like valve body kit, hardened stator (mandatory in my book), GN or billet servo. If you are lucky enough to have a unit out of a GN, GNX or Turbo T/A you can drop it in with just a hardened stator and go.

Thanks: It's going to replace my 80 Bonnies TH350 : I could go with 3.73 gears and the TH200R4 would still give about 2.50 : 1 overall ratio vs. the 2.56s it now has; plus the first 2.74 is deeper then the 2.50.
I think I'll upgrade , even though Im just pushing 125 hp.

[Blue '66]

Heres a good thread from Jake with pics. http://www.nastyz28.com/forum/showthread.php?t=87368

[pastry_chef]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

Got a call yesterday from a customer who went the 200-4R route, and bought a custom 10" non-L/U Continental converter from us. His car is 455 powered, runs low 11's and he is very happy with the converter on the street and at the track. He also monitors his transmission temps, and sees no indications anyplace that the converter heats up the fluid for "normal" driving.......Cliff

Has the cost of the converters come down from last year Cliff?

Originally Posted by Cliff R

I could build 3 or 4 TH400's for the cost of a decent torque converter for a 200-4R, FWIW.....Cliff

post #29 - 07-25-2007, 05:29 AM
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/....php?p=2984863

[GOAT8U2]

SMDELLIN, where you at after all this 200-4r talk??

FWIW, I was cruising at 2200rpm at 75mph in my GN last week, my Turbo Talon does 45mph higher than that

[smdellin]

I haven't moved on the tranny yet. We are racing at Milan, MI next week and both cars blew up trannies so we are frantically getting them repaired.

One of the trannies is a brand new 2004r in a 455 Buick, my bud just spent $2400 in getting it built. It went boom on the second pass. I think it was the input shaft, but we will know for sure today. He stated he had the billet parts so it may be something else. All I know is it was a heck of a noise! Now it won't move in any gear.

Makes me nervous about swapping out a solid TH350, but I don't race the car I want to swap so maybe I'll be OK.

[jakeshoe]

Please PM me the builder of the 200-4R and spec sheet.

$2400 should include a billet input shaft IMO.

I was talking to a guy on the TurboBuick board who bought a 200-4R from a "reputable" vendor off the LS1 sites. Just because they can make a 4L60E work doesn't mean they can get a 200-4R to do so. It's been proven time and time again.

[smdellin]

I'll find out and let you know.

[Cliff R]

"Has the cost of the converters come down from last year Cliff?"

The 200-4R non L/U converters aren't much more than the standard TH400 converters, never have been. The billet multiple clutch converters are the most expensive, costing nearly as much as the transmission.

"One of the trannies is a brand new 2004r in a 455 Buick, my bud just spent $2400 in getting it built. It went boom on the second pass."

Ouch!...and exactly why I don't use one in my own daily driven car with an engine making 600ft lbs torque. Despite all the good internals that are available for those units, they are still "little" transmissions. It's amazing that they hold up as good as they do......Cliff

[GOAT8U2]

I meant to say 2200rpm at 75mph and Talon is 45mph at 2300rpm.

$2400 better include the input but he'll find out when he pulls it.

Wasn't Precision doing a lock up idea for the TH400 at like $700?

[jakeshoe]

PI offered the lockup kit for a TH400 but it was expensive. Around $2K with a converter IIRC.

Here's the deal and I'm going to say it as politely as possible.

There are only a few really good builders of the 200-4R. There are other excellent transmission builders, big name places that do well on other units. They couldn't build a 200-4R to save their arse.

In simple terms,
when you ante up and buy the billet parts they just don't break.
I have yet to see a broken 4340 input shaft, or even hear of one for the 200-4R. I have yet to see a broken "billet" forward drum. I haven't seen or heard of any of the billet OD pieces breaking. I haven't seen a broken hardened sun shell.
I've HEARD of broken output shafts in very heavy and/or very fast combos, never seen one. I believe there are billet output shafts available now. I can't see the need for one because I don't plan on putting a 200-4R behind a high 8 second or low 9 second combo as some have done.

So when you have replaced all the driving parts with billet (not cheap) there really isn't anything to break inside except the planetaries. They are proven up to the 800 HP level in GN's (not particularly light, typical A-body type weight 3600-3800 lbs).

The GOOD builders know the tricks to get the clutches to live, and it isn't rocket science, and it isn't expensive or hard. The average builder doesn't know these tricks. Most performance builders aren't familiar with them, especially with the 200-4R. It is truly a specialty deal, and even at that it takes a few tries to get the VB calibration right. I went through 3 or 4 iterations to get the VB calibration where I was happy with it in my personal car and I have further refined it from there.

There are only a handful of guys who can really build these transmissions. Not to be conceited but I would include myself among these. It was definitely a trial and error deal at first.
Amazingly enough most of the info is easily available on the TurboBuick site, it would take hours of reading to learn it, but much of it is consolidated in Bruce's sticky post at the top of the trans forum.
Many of the good builders are listed there. There are a handful of others like myself who do it "part-time" and have enough word of mouth business that we're not listed there.
Chris at CKPerformance
Bruce at PTS
Lonnie at Extreme Automatics
Brian Hofer
Mike Ridings
Mike Kurtz
these are the names you should be looking for.

In the above case it wouldn't surprise me if it was not one of the known builders, but another builder who used parts from CK or PTS.
As with the 700/4L60E units, parts alone doesn't get you there.

$2400 would buy a full billet unit or close to it from myself or most of the other builders. It should be at a minimum the input shaft and forward drum IMO, but some builders charge more. PTS in particular. Their $2400 piece may not have as much billet. One guy called it the "California Tax" because theirs are much more expensive than the equivalent from other noted builders. Ovehead costs or whatever.

As an exmaple..
Just this week I was in contact with a guy who bought a 200-4R from a noted vendor on the LS1 forums. Big name, lots of advertisement, decent reputation for the 4L60s. New trans, NOT cheap, and it has miserably low line pressure. I know of this builder and have noticed some interesting "techniques" or lack thereof that they use. IMO they have a good reputation on the LS1 boards and that tells me they can build a 4L60E. Probably due to dumb luck of using a good combo of parts and decent assembly techniques, copying of other more innovative builders.
I've seen the same vendor makes very ill-informed statements due to a general lack of knowledge of other common GM transmissions. TH350s, TH400s, etc. The Th350 and Th400's are old as dirt and simple, there are a few "tricks" but they are commonly known, and this builder doesn't know these common tricks. As an example, using a TH350 pump bearing to replace the rear thrust bearing in a Th400 or 4L80E.

You can't just buy a transmission from a big name or well known shop and expect it to be top notch. Certain builders specialize in certain units. I've been studying these things in depth for 5-6 yrs and have been rebuilding them for over 15 yrs. I still consider the GM rear wheel drive autos as my specialty and would say I'm more proficient than many at the 200-4R and the 4L80E.
I can build a nice AOD, C4, C6, 727, etc. But I don't specialize in them. I don't have such an ego to claim I can build a C4 as good as some of the really good Ford guys who know ALL the tricks and know the hydraulics off the top of their head.

I see these stories about the 200-4R often, and they get a bad rep because at the bigger power levels, you MUST go to one of the good builders.

As an example,
Cliff is a noted memeber here and from what I've read he can hold his own building most of the GM units. He doesn't like the 200-4R based on his past experiences (probably pre-billet parts era). I'm sure he can assemble one as good as anybody, checking for clearances, properly assembling clutch packs, attention to detail, knowledge of pump tricks (because they are the same as the 700), etc.
However,
I could have him build a 200-4R with ALL the billet pieces and I seriously wouldn't expect it to last a week behind 600+ HP.
That's not to say he woudl have built it wrong, but just that without knowing the hydraulics tricks, it would be doomed for failure. Not hard parts failure but clutch failure.


I'm really curious about the above unit, as to who built it, and what it actually contained.

It could be a converter failure too, with the noise.

[lust4speed]

I had a friend at a local trans shop build mine, and he did really well until he slipped up and installed a thrust washer backwards. All the trick stuff just couldn't make up for that mistake. The rebuild was handled by a race shop this time, and it's doing well. This is in the cruiser with A/C so the demands are pretty light on it.

I have two simple questions that are way below the level of this thread, but seems like a good place to wedge them in:

Where is the date code on a 200-4R and how do you read it?
Which line should be tapped for the trans temp sender?

[jakeshoe]

Date code is on the tag on pass rear. Usually the first two numbers, almost self explanatory.

87BR F 1121 would be an 87 GN trans.

Gauge should go to the pan or return line. The outlet line will read hot, especially with a lose converter and isn't a good indicator of what the clutches see (the important part).

Pan temp is probably best.

[smdellin]

Well I must apologize, got the tranny out and it was the converter!!!

The converter was an Art Carr.

The builder of the tranny is Brian Hofer, seems like a pretty good guy. He is going to go through the tranny at no charge just to make sure everything is OK.

[Cliff R]

"There are only a few really good builders of the 200-4R. There are other excellent transmission builders, big name places that do well on other units. They couldn't build a 200-4R to save their arse."

Well said, I was thinking it, but didn't say it. One should also replace 200-4R with Quadrajet, and the sentence would be equally as true!

It all boils down to what you specialize in. I don't have enough interest in those units from anyone in this area to step up and start building them on a large scale. I did take the time to figure out how to get the direct clutches to live, and also how to install solid telfons at all locations for a perfect hydraulic seal between the parts. The billet and stronger parts are used when the power level dictates doing so. I still have never been comfortable with using such a small transmission behind large cid engines making over 500ft lbs torque, where they will see a lot of track time.

I see WAY too many failures of these units after a year or two of use at moderate power levels, where a well built TH400 will last for 1000 runs and still function like the day you put it in place.

Here's a case in point. A few years ago, we ran into a GN owner at a local car cruise. He had one of the fastest GN's I'd ever seen, HUGE turbo, intercooler and 4" exhaust. It ran sub 10 second quarter mile times at will, over 160mph. At that time, the average life expectancy for any 200 he'd tried was less than 10 runs. He had some pretty "deep" pockets, and had hired the very best builders in the industry to set them up for him, including at least one of the names that made your list, same end result, they simply couldn't hold the power he was making. Keep in mind when you read this, our conversation took place back around 2001-2002. Maybe things have improved some since then?

Anyhow, he asked me if I'd be interested in giving it a try, and I quickly declined, wanting no involvement in such a project at any price. I ran into the guy a few years later, and he had moved on to a TH400 transmission, and it was up to about 200 runs with zero problems at that point.......Cliff

PS: not surprised at all the converter failed, was it a lock-up or non lock-up?

[smdellin]

It was a lock up.

Why are you not surprised about the converter. Should he be doing something different in regards to the converter?

He is going to go with a West Coast converter next.

[Cliff R]

I've seen the same thing happen many times to L/U converters behind GN's, no matter who built them. Hopefully it didn't pump the transmission full of too much debris, which often happens when the sprag or torrington bearings in the converter fail......Cliff

[Overkillphil]

Had major problem with Art Carr with a 200-4R. Ended up sending it back. Later found out it was not the "real" Art Carr but someone who bought the name. I made specific requirements when I ordered it, and the convertor would not even fit into the crank register hole! When they sent one that fit, the trans shifted even more mushy than a Cadillac Fleetwood! No exaggeration.

They did however, let me return it with no BS. BUT, I had to eat the cost to ship it back (150 bucks!)

Next up was a Level 10 unit. Well, I was so disguisted with builders at this point I told them I wanted it to shift '10' on a scale of 1-10. Well, be careful what you wish for. It shifted so violently the back wheels would jump off the ground with just moderate acceleration! The car would also go sideways at times during shifts without provoking it.

Before I got around to correcting the issue, the accumulator seal blew out. Took it to a local guy who knows these trannies pretty well and he set it up perfectly. The only thing I would change down the road is swapping to the billet parts and a better converter as I am using a 'D5' 87 GN converter, but it does work flawlessly.

[smdellin]

Overkillphil

To help me with a baseline, what work have you done to your 2004r and what is it hooked to? What is the HP?

I need to start with the minimum for a 400 HP vehical and work my way up to the billet when I can.

I have had some great input from this thread but would like to hear what you have going on.

[jakeshoe]

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/tra...ing-2004r.html

Here's the article I've mentioned, it will give a good baseline.

Brian Hofer is one of the good builders as I previously mentioned.

I would have been extremely surprised to see the trans go boom that fast. What brand was the current converter that gave up?

The stock GN converter is a decent little piece behind a stout but mild street motor. That is what I ran behind my 427 BBC until I broke a flexplate and then took out the converter hub and pump.

[Overkillphil]

Currently I am running it in a 72 Formula with a 400. Car weighs 3650 without me in it, and runs low 13's. No big deal on the engine, usual street stuff and low compression heads, Cliff Q-jet, 2.5" pipes.

The trans is out of an 87 GN. I had the billet accumulator put in, better clutches and some valve body work along with the normal pump upgrades and hardened stator. I bought a brand new D5 converter back when they were still available because the stock stator splines were worn and I was worried about metal in the old converter. Just a precaution I suppose.

I am in the process of swapping to a new 462/KRE alum heads and HR cam, so I am planning to do some easy/spirited driving to get the engine broken in, then upgrading the trans to the billet parts before I start blasting down the quarter. I think this point is often overlooked when swapping to these trannys. If I am starting with a known running unit, I prefer to install it, and drive the car to work out any external issues with the install and also get to know trans a little and see if I even like it. When I did this with the 200-4R, I immediately noticed the car was snappier off idle and as soon as I hit the freeway I was sold!

Also, in the interim, when I do the engine swap I am swapping the pan and stock filter for a deep pan and custom filter from one of the pros Jake mentioned.


This trans has been in service in that car since 1989 with a few interuptions along the way, like the Art Carr trans I mentioned earlier. In it's current form it shifts perfectly firm/hard for my liking. No delayed shifts, it is very crisp and fast. The shift points are also perfect as I run the stock GN governor. Shifts are @ 5000-5200 at WOT. Car accelerates like a slingshot out of the hole on the street with BFG G-force radials/3.42 rear gear.

Hope that helps.