Pontiac - Race The next Level

          
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 05-20-2017, 06:45 AM
TheGrudge TheGrudge is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Elsewhere
Posts: 104
Default Deliberate choke point?

Here's my theory. I'm sure I'm not the first to think of this. Maybe it's a known "thing". Maybe it doesn't work.
Through a strange twist of events a 4.25/6.8/4.181 build became 4.50/6.7/4.195.
RPM vs longevity has become something I've pondered a lot. Conventional wisdom would suggest that keeping RPM to a safe level would necessitate selecting cam/intake/heads etc matched to the intended operating range ie if you don't want to spin it past say 6000 pick parts that work from 2500-5500 and maybe shift at 5800 to keep it all together.
Problem there is of course that 2500-5500 is 067-068 territory and I'm not building 497 cubes to pull a Winnebago.
My idea is to use airflow limitations/choke point to make the motor "run out of air" before 6,000rpm thus making peak power earlier (obviously giving up some top end power) but using a much more aggressive cam that would otherwise maybe peak at say 6500.
I got to thinking about fast Ponchos in the pre-E head era (or pre Wenzler). 250cfm headed 450-some cid motors deep in the 10's clearly making more than the old rule of thumb
HP=Cyl head intake cfm x2 kinda thing. Anyways, as things have turned out I'll be testing this theory first hand in the coming months as I finally get this lump together. I'll post details, but wonder if this is something others have tried/done or if a specific class of racing has led racers down this path before. Fire away, I won't be offended!

  #2  
Old 05-20-2017, 07:36 AM
taff2's Avatar
taff2 taff2 is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: South Wales in UK.
Posts: 2,172
Default

Contact one of the cam manufacturers and tell them what you want to do, you'll probably end up with a roller with lots of lift but short on duration I imagine.

  #3  
Old 05-20-2017, 01:11 PM
pastry_chef's Avatar
pastry_chef pastry_chef is offline
Suspended
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 2,300
Default

What will the compression ratio be?

What heads will be run?

  #4  
Old 05-20-2017, 05:08 PM
Lee's Avatar
Lee Lee is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Crosby, TX (East of Houston)/Texas/USA
Posts: 2,059
Default

"Running out of air" is not going to miraculously re-make low-end power, which was sacrificed by a too-large intake duration.

The big cam will lose low-end. The "choke point" will just kill the upper-rpm power, the motor will not really notice it until becomes the limiting factor. You'll end up with a large engine that performs like a much smaller, weaker engine.

Get a custom cam for sure. A properly chosen cam will extract the most power possible over the rpm range you wish to utilize, and not "tricks" will be needed.

__________________
'73 T/A (clone). Low budget stock headed 8.3:1 455, 222/242 116lsa .443/.435 cam. FAST Sportsman EFI, 315rwhp/385rwtq on 87 octane. 13.12 @103.2, 1.91 60'.

'67 Firebird [sold], ; 11.27 @ 119.61, 7.167 @ 96.07, with UD 280/280 (108LSA/ 109 ICL)solid cam. [1.537, 7.233 @93.61, 11.46 @ 115.4 w/ old UD 288/296 108 hydraulic cam] Feb '05 HPP, home-ported "16" D-ports, dished pistons (pump gas only), 3.42 gears, 275/60 DR's, 750DP, T2, full exhaust

My webpage http://lnlpd.com/home
  #5  
Old 05-20-2017, 06:38 PM
TheGrudge TheGrudge is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Elsewhere
Posts: 104
Default

Thanks for your replys. Motor is almost ready to assemble. Custom cam already ground.
I know that if I posted the specs straight up I'd get responses like "you need more cyl head flow/Northwind/Victor/Dominator" etc. Probably still will. What I'm getting at is that if more airflow/bigger ports etc will raise peaks then less airflow/smaller ports/higher velocity will lower peaks and keep rpm range safer as a byproduct. Stepping up to 4.50 stroke was something that wasn't part of the original plan so rather than re-spec the entire build I've tried to work with what I have, knowing that some more port work & an intake/carb swap down the line won't be major surgery if it comes to it.
Goal was always 550hp/550tq/5500-6000 rpm at 467cid.
Specs as they stand are:

YC 455 block
3 centre program billet caps
Spotts windage tray & scraper
Butler pro series oil pump 80 psi
Scat 4.50 steel crank
Manley 6.7 H-beam rods
Icon 2618 4.195 slugs 17cc dish
87cc E heads 285cfm / right on 10:1 comp
Torker 2 blended approx 1.5" in to Felpro 1233
Carb shop stage 3 4150 vac sec 925cfm no choke horn etc
Comp custom solid flat tappet ( card below )
Comp 800-16 lifters w/edm hole
Lifter bore brace
Comp 1.65:1 gold roller rockers
PRW stud girdles
MSD ignition
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	image.jpg
Views:	82
Size:	54.8 KB
ID:	455012  

  #6  
Old 05-20-2017, 08:39 PM
pastry_chef's Avatar
pastry_chef pastry_chef is offline
Suspended
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 2,300
Default

Thanks for sharing, will you dyno this?

The cylinder pressure differential will increase horsepower / CFM.

  #7  
Old 05-20-2017, 08:50 PM
TheGrudge TheGrudge is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Elsewhere
Posts: 104
Default

Will definitely dyno, yes. Just love a bit of bench racing/like to pretend I understand physics. All will be revealed on dyno day. A trillion calculations have me thinking this thing may make some torque.

  #8  
Old 05-20-2017, 09:48 PM
Skip Fix's Avatar
Skip Fix Skip Fix is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Katy,TX USA
Posts: 20,577
Default

My pump gas 455 in the 78 TA is about there with an UD HFT 296/304 T2 Holley 850.

__________________
Skip Fix
1978 Trans Am original owner 10.99 @ 124 pump gas 455 E heads, NO Bird ever!
1981 Black SE Trans Am stockish 6X 400ci, turbo 301 on a stand
1965 GTO 4 barrel 3 speed project
2004 GTO Pulse Red stock motor computer tune 13.43@103.4
1964 Impala SS 409/470ci 600 HP stroker project
1979 Camaro IAII Edelbrock head 500" 695 HP 10.33@132 3595lbs
  #9  
Old 05-21-2017, 01:25 AM
john marcella john marcella is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,033
Default

Give it lots of cyl head and back up on valve timing.! VE will be better over the whole curve.

__________________
John Marcella
Marcella Manifolds Inc.
john@marcellamanifolds.net
ph. 248-259-6696
  #10  
Old 05-21-2017, 03:59 PM
Probird's Avatar
Probird Probird is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Athens, Illinois
Posts: 3,187
Default

Looking at the bottom end parts you are using that thing will be plenty safe to 7000 or more. I wouldn't hesitate to turn up to 6800 and let that be the rpm upper end.

__________________
Come take a ride http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7Y8Awfk2I0
2008, 2013, 2015, 2016, 2019 Central Il Dragway Mod track champion
and 2015 IHRA Div 5 Mod champion
  #11  
Old 05-21-2017, 04:50 PM
TheGrudge TheGrudge is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Elsewhere
Posts: 104
Default

Thanks for your input guys. If the bottom end is likely to safely/reliably spin up past 6500 then will the T2 let it get there? When I was at 467cid I would have thought so, at 497 I wonder. Will the cam still be pulling at 6500?

Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:09 PM.

 

About Us

The PY Online Forums is the largest online gathering of Pontiac enthusiasts anywhere in the world. Founded in 1991, it was also the first online forum for people to gather and talk about their Pontiacs. Since then, it has become the mecca of Pontiac technical data and knowledge that no other place can surpass.

 




Copyright © 2017