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Old 04-06-2020, 04:39 PM
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Dick Boneske Dick Boneske is offline
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We're using a standard bore, standard journal size, 4 bolt 428 block for a '68 Firebird with overdrive automatic, 4.11 gears, FI, Edlebrock 87 cc D-port heads. Will use stock crank, Eagle rods, Diamond pistons for 9.6:1 compression.

When talking to the builder about cams, he suggested Comp Cams Extreme Energy Series with their SOLID LIFTERS. They offer a lifter with a .012" hole in the bottom cam surface, for improved lube to the cam. He does not like any of the retro hydraulic roller setups.

I was concerned about valvetrain noise with a solid cam, but he says these run with minimum lash so you'd never know it was not a hydraulic cam.

What have you heard?

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Old 04-06-2020, 05:52 PM
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Dick I used to run solid rollers on my hyd roller cams.I did away with that some years ago.You are talking about a roller cam right?Just remember you will have to treat it like a solid roller cam and use the proper springs.We ran 200 on the seats and set the lifters at 6 thou.FYI,a friend of mine just lost a engine when his solid roller lifter gave up and put bearings thru the engine.Total re build.Good luck with the build.I did not find them that noisy.I lost a lifter also but caught it before the bearings left the race.Tom

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Old 04-06-2020, 05:58 PM
Navy Horn 16 Navy Horn 16 is offline
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If you run solid rollers, they are going to be noisy as hell.

The best way to eliminate the noise is to get exhaust cutouts, at least you can drown it out. Otherwise, get a hyd roller. If your builder doesn't know of any good HYD Roller setups for these engines, you might need a more experienced builder. Just sayin.... there are tons of great options.

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Old 04-06-2020, 06:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Boneske View Post
We're using a standard bore, standard journal size, 4 bolt 428 block for a '68 Firebird with overdrive automatic, 4.11 gears, FI, Edlebrock 87 cc D-port heads. Will use stock crank, Eagle rods, Diamond pistons for 9.6:1 compression.

When talking to the builder about cams, he suggested Comp Cams Extreme Energy Series with their SOLID LIFTERS. They offer a lifter with a .012" hole in the bottom cam surface, for improved lube to the cam. He does not like any of the retro hydraulic roller setups.

I was concerned about valvetrain noise with a solid cam, but he says these run with minimum lash so you'd never know it was not a hydraulic cam.

What have you heard?

One of our daily drivers uses a Comp solid flat tappet, with the Comp lifters and their EDM hole on the face of the lifter that you are talking about.
Your engine builder is correct that if you use a tighter lash solid flat tappet, they make very little noise. The one I'm using is only .014" lash and quite frankly, with the hood shut and sitting in the car, I hear nothing. Even standing beside the car with the hood shut, it's barely even noticeable, you have to know what you're listening for. Typical bystander wouldn't even notice. Open the hood and it becomes a little more apparent but it's nothing that jumps out at you. Certainly nothing like the other solid flat tappet car here that runs .030" lash on an old Isky cam from the 60's. Now that one makes some noise, lol. Different (antique) ramp profile. The new stuff is much better.

Here's a picture of those lifters, you can barely even see the hole on the face. Over 30k miles on this setup and since break in, the lash hasn't budged, it's been an excellent setup.
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Last edited by Formulajones; 04-06-2020 at 06:30 PM.
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Old 04-06-2020, 07:05 PM
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I read your post one, twice. Since you ARE talking about a flat tappet cam.......The general consensus HERE, is against Comp Extreme Energy cams, period, even if you select one with enough duration for the cubes you are running!!! Any other grind of theirs would possibly be OK (I'm a non expert here, just remembering ALL the bad words against an XE cam...) Comp has other series of cams. Pick one of those...

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Old 04-06-2020, 07:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 77 TRASHCAN View Post
ALL the bad words against an XE cam...)
Come from mainly one forum member, your hero.
There have been scores of forum members saying they are happy with theirs. Even in Jim Hand's book there are several recipes recommending them from real builders! Fact.

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Old 04-06-2020, 08:47 PM
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We run the edm oiling solid flat tappet lifters/solid flat tappet cams combos. The pressure lubed face oiling adds a lot of durability to a flat tappet cam. When we can find a profile that fits I won’t blink and eye going that direction on the street or at the track. Just make sure you put a big enough cam in, look at the cam ratings and make sure you account for the lash effect on the size of the cam.

The compcams extreme energy solid flat tappet really has no relation to an extreme energy flat tappet hydraulic. The XE solid is a tight lash solid street profile. They have fairly aggressive intensity, but not compared to some of the other solid flat tappet profiles out there. We have one street solid flat tappet from Bullet that has .597 lift with 1.5s with similar intensity off the seat. A Max area solid makes a XE look lazy. The magnum solid flat tappets can be lashed nearly as tight, they will go from .015 to .030”. On high compression street stuff we often pick that type of cam. If you concerned about noise and not power as much one of the magnum solids lashed tight is quieter than one of the XE’s.

There was a pretty interesting Engine Masters show over on Motor Trend channel were the took a 500 hp hydraulic roller cams engine and put solid rollers on it the tightened the lash down to .002”. The solid lifters made just under 10HP more across the entire power band. Solid cams can be surprising sometimes.


Last edited by Jay S; 04-06-2020 at 08:51 PM. Reason: Edit
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Old 04-06-2020, 09:23 PM
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Solids do generally make more power than a similar hydraulic for reasons that Steve has explained so well in previous posts about the subject.

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Old 04-06-2020, 11:30 PM
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Why the low compression ratio?

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Old 04-07-2020, 06:02 AM
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Just keep in mind that the lash that's needed to be run with a solid type Cam ( even a roller!) isn't just there to compensate for expansion, it's needed to give the intended opening acceleration rate of the valve for which the Cam lobe was designed!

It seems most folks don't understand that if a Cam is designed for 1.5 rockers with let's say .018" lash, if you step up to a higher ratio rocker then you also need to increase the lash setting also!

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Old 04-07-2020, 06:33 AM
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Jim Butler recommended SFT lobes for me from the XTQ series - also with the lifters with the pee-hole. I haven’t seen/heard these discussed on these boards - might be worth looking into? FWIW

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Old 04-07-2020, 06:38 AM
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...and although I’m younger than many here, when I was a kid all of the baddest street cars ran solids; the combination of solid lifter noise and choppy overlap-py idle is like a symphony to me.

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Old 04-07-2020, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGrudge View Post
...and although I’m younger than many here, when I was a kid all of the baddest street cars ran solids; the combination of solid lifter noise and choppy overlap-py idle is like a symphony to me.
Many of the hot cars coming out of Detroit were born with solid lifters.

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Old 04-07-2020, 11:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve25 View Post
Just keep in mind that the lash that's needed to be run with a solid type Cam ( even a roller!) isn't just there to compensate for expansion, it's needed to give the intended opening acceleration rate of the valve for which the Cam lobe was designed!

It seems most folks don't understand that if a Cam is designed for 1.5 rockers with let's say .018" lash, if you step up to a higher ratio rocker then you also need to increase the lash setting also!
Yes you want the lifter to be on the same spot on the cam (lifter raise) when the lash is taken up.

Also what most folks don't understand is that a number of companies design a cam lobe (Valve lift curve) and it then may have a hydraulic lash ramp added or a solid lash ramp added.

Stan

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Old 04-07-2020, 11:21 AM
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Dave Bisschop is using Comp XE lobes on some of his revised cams.


.

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Old 04-07-2020, 12:28 PM
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I've been dubbed the Comp XE cam "basher" on here simply because I put up results based on direct testing. I get a LOT of complaints from customers who have used XE cams and not happy with anything about them, starting with excessive valvetrain noise, going "dead" around 4800-5000rpm's from excessive seating velocity and not running "battleship" springs on them, and quite a few lobe failures although that is probably more due to Comp supplying lower quality lifters with them, IMHO.


Keep in mind that contrary to leader of my "fan club" I actually do something beside "troll" around the websites and "google" to the brink of extinction to find someone who agrees with my line of thinking. Basically the difference between owning, building, driving, racing a Pontiac powered car and getting dirty by doing things vs not even have ported my first Pontiac head let alone have built, dynod, street and track tested a Pontiac engine in a car that moves.

Now that we have that sorted out, 9.6 compression is "low" for aluminum heads with the revised/modern chambers on pump gas. The last 428 we did here used KRE 74 cc combustion chamber heads at 10.6 to 1. We used a Comp XFI roller lobed (.361") cam in it, 236/242 @ .050". It cranked out 497hp/540tq with unported heads. Nothing more done to them but a quick port match and minor clean-up under the valves. I didn't take more than a tablespoon material from each head. We did that build over 15 years ago and coincidentally talked to the owner the other day. He said it's still flawless an zero issues on pump fuel of any octane. He likes it so much he sent the carb back to have it upgraded to electric choke to make it even more using friendly in cooler/cold weather.

For sure you woln't be running into detonation issues even on the lowest octane fuel out there, unless a tiny little cam is installed on a really tight LSA to boost cylinder filling at low RPM's.

Tight lash solid cams are fine, have used a few here. For comparison purposes I also dyno tested a custom ground flat solid from Comp using their better XTQ lobes, 284/296, 240/248/112lsa. It LOST 10hp/22ft lbs torque compared to a Crower 60919 cam 304/314, 231/240/113LSA even though it has more duration @ .050" and nearly .060" more lift. Something to be learned there comparing a solid cam with shorter seat timing to a flat hydraulic cam. The old rule of thumb was to choose one about 10 degrees bigger comparing to a flat hydraulic cam. I'd say 15-18 degrees would be a better comparison as more is lost with the lash and take-up than previously believed.

Don't be concerned for a second about "valve train noise". Flat solid cams are not loud in use and for sure you aren't going to get a "ticker" in the bunch as is common with hydraulic lifter set-ups.

I run the "hybrid" set-up in my engine, Crower HIPPO solid roller lifters lashed at .005" on a flat hydraulic roller cam. Has been flawless for over 10 years now and the quietest engine I've had in the car to date in terms of valve train noise.

In contrast we have done several flat solid combinations for customers using Pontiac engines. None were considered "tight lash" and they were pretty quiet on the dyno and after making it between the fenders of the car they were installed in.......Cliff

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Old 04-07-2020, 12:34 PM
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Bullet and use the Ultradyne lobes if you want a solid FT-heck or a HFT or rollers even. I used the UD 288/292 SFT in my RAIV 400 and it was pretty rowdy.

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Old 04-07-2020, 01:10 PM
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Although minimal in the situation here the lash required effectively reduces cam duration, especially at low lift off the valve seat. With less duration, peak torque and power occur at lower rpm than would normally be the case for the given combo when running a hydraulic lifter. In other words, the cam acts smaller. Exactly how much lash is necessary varies with the specific cam profile.

And Like Tom was told by Comp the rep I used to deal with at Comp said the same thing, you need to run more spring pressure with a sold lifter on a hydraulic lobe. There is enough material posted on this subject to choke a horse !


.

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Old 04-07-2020, 01:51 PM
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Good point Steve, I forgot to mention spring pressure(s). Don't skimp with solid lifter profiles they do NOT run into any lifter "crash" or hydraulic lifter "pump-up" issues at higher RPM's.

My "hybrid" set-up will rev right to and past 6500rpm's so quick at times it's difficult to move the shifter quick enough to prevent it from going higher!

My last 455 with HR lifters started to act like I had a rev-limited installed around 5800rpms.......Cliff

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Old 04-07-2020, 02:01 PM
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I have a file for a Comp XE Hyd 3192 lobe. It should have 224 @ 0.050" on the intake. This file I have shows 226.64.

If I add 0.008" (add 0.012" lash more with 1.5:1) to each lobe lift point I have 233.3 @ 0.050"

If I add 0.016" (add 0.024" lash more with 1.5:1) to each lobe lift point I have 240.1 @ 0.050"

Note different lobe designs will show a different increase.

Stan

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