#1361  
Old 11-20-2019, 12:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Greg Reid View Post
What are the two water pump lengths? A body uses the shorter one, right?
IIRC, the short one was 69 F-body only. And it didn't even last the entire model year?

  #1362  
Old 11-20-2019, 10:38 PM
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Don't know much about the F body... Shopping for one, it looks like it was a year model thing... like they went to the longer one after they went from the 8 bolt to the 11 bolt. I ordered one for a 69 and it was the long style which matches what l have.
Unfortunately, it also has a stamped impeller.

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  #1363  
Old 11-21-2019, 12:00 AM
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I had the Flying Dutchman rebuild one about 12 years ago that performed perfectly with no issues yet. I wonder what that old cuss Tony would recommend... call him if he's still alive.

  #1364  
Old 11-21-2019, 08:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Reid View Post
What are the two water pump lengths? A body uses the shorter one, right?
4" & 4.5"

  #1365  
Old 11-25-2019, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by 'ol Pinion head View Post
Below is a good example of a cast impeller in a tall 11 bolt wp, a pump that will work great for what it was designed for, a short deck (reduced cooling capacity) 301 or 265. Open the pics & skim to the one with a view of the impeller.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-GM-4882...p2047675.l2557

This is the late style abbreviated impeller designed to create less drag & move less coolant. This type impeller works fine on a short deck block & works equally well on std deck height blocks that have been hardblocked to the bottom of the freeze plugs. Needless to say, the parts usage description in the eBay ad is far from correct.

On the previous 8 bolt design water pumps, the early ones used a lazy impeller which was designed to move a certain volume of coolant due to the cooling needs of a '64 or '65. Later 8 bolt wps received a much more aggressive design impeller which moved coolant through the system quicker & will move the coolant too quickly to transfer heat into the coolant in an early system. On several instances, have ran across owners of vehicles having cooling problems which had sourced the incorrect cast impeller pump.
That pump works great on my 461 500 hp with a 3 core alum. radiator / non electric fan / 8 years now & in Pa. with hot summers idles in traffic & never goes above 200 / 180 in motion.


Last edited by chrisp; 11-25-2019 at 09:47 AM. Reason: add
  #1366  
Old 08-09-2020, 07:55 PM
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Question CVF WRAPTOR and the WATER PUMP CVF provides...

OVERHEATING!
I'm only on page 11 of this EPIC SAGA and I need to know if anyone has installed the CVF WRAPTOR serpentine belt and accessories system? I have had that added to my 65 GTO with a 1965 421 Tripower. The first "surprise" was having to switch to an 11 bolt timing chain cover, because the 421 had an 8 bolt water pump, but the Wraptor provides an 11 bolt water pump. The 2nd surprise was the TRIPOWER requires a dimpled timing chain cover (just like the dimpled 8 bolt I had on it) and those are NOT available NEW, but fortunately BUTLER performance had a nice used one.
My engine is going over 235° EEK!!
Anyway, I have changed a LOT all at once, but the RADIATOR is an EXCELLENT COLD CASE LARGE tube, 2 core aluminum style, so I'm confident that isn't the problem. I don't know what kind of impeller vanes (stamped or cast) the WRAPTOR 11 bolt water pump has. My 8 bolt pump has BOTH the dividing plate and a second plate that I have attached a picture of. It's the plate with the "thumb" that blocks off part of the passages, and you can see it sitting on top of the dividing plate. DO ALL PONTIAC WATER PUMPS use BOTH plates?
I've been told that the mechanic only installed the divider plate, the one with the dome-ish curve that has to be as close as possible to the impeller vanes.
I need some help. No trapped air in the system, 2x 12" fans cranking air through the radiator.
Here's something that makes me think the divider plate has too much distance between it and the impeller, OR there's some other water pump related problem: When the engine is idling after being over 230° and the car is sitting stationary, the temperature drops at least 2° every 30 seconds or less (both fans running). If I increase the idle speed to 1,600 RPMs, the temperature immediately begins to climb. That makes me think it's a water pump related problem.
HELP!!!
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  #1367  
Old 08-09-2020, 08:20 PM
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Chris65LeMans Chris65LeMans is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avman View Post
OVERHEATING!
I'm only on page 11 of this EPIC SAGA and I need to know if anyone has installed the CVF WRAPTOR serpentine belt and accessories system? I have had that added to my 65 GTO with a 1965 421 Tripower. The first "surprise" was having to switch to an 11 bolt timing chain cover, because the 421 had an 8 bolt water pump, but the Wraptor provides an 11 bolt water pump. The 2nd surprise was the TRIPOWER requires a dimpled timing chain cover (just like the dimpled 8 bolt I had on it) and those are NOT available NEW, but fortunately BUTLER performance had a nice used one.
My engine is going over 235° EEK!!
Anyway, I have changed a LOT all at once, but the RADIATOR is an EXCELLENT COLD CASE LARGE tube, 2 core aluminum style, so I'm confident that isn't the problem. I don't know what kind of impeller vanes (stamped or cast) the WRAPTOR 11 bolt water pump has. My 8 bolt pump has BOTH the dividing plate and a second plate that I have attached a picture of. It's the plate with the "thumb" that blocks off part of the passages, and you can see it sitting on top of the dividing plate. DO ALL PONTIAC WATER PUMPS use BOTH plates?
I've been told that the mechanic only installed the divider plate, the one with the dome-ish curve that has to be as close as possible to the impeller vanes.
I need some help. No trapped air in the system, 2x 12" fans cranking air through the radiator.
Here's something that makes me think the divider plate has too much distance between it and the impeller, OR there's some other water pump related problem: When the engine is idling after being over 230° and the car is sitting stationary, the temperature drops at least 2° every 30 seconds or less (both fans running). If I increase the idle speed to 1,600 RPMs, the temperature immediately begins to climb. That makes me think it's a water pump related problem.
HELP!!!
Did you have problems before the switch? Have you verified your temp gauge with a laser thermometer?

I have a CVF pulley system - their customer service is excellent. If that’s their pump, call them and ask.

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  #1368  
Old 08-09-2020, 09:47 PM
avman avman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris65LeMans View Post
Did you have problems before the switch? Have you verified your temp gauge with a laser thermometer?
I have a CVF pulley system - their customer service is excellent. If that’s their pump, call them and ask.
No problem before. Yes, and the laser thermometer agrees with the Dakota Digital gauge and app.
By "CVF pulley system" you mean the same thing I have? Water pump, alternator, power steering pump, AC compressor, pulleys, bracket, tensioner and serpentine belt?

  #1369  
Old 08-10-2020, 02:27 AM
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Mister Pontiac Mister Pontiac is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avman View Post
...My 8 bolt pump has BOTH the dividing plate and a second plate that I have attached a picture of. It's the plate with the "thumb" that blocks off part of the passages, and you can see it sitting on top of the dividing plate. DO ALL PONTIAC WATER PUMPS use BOTH plates?
I've been told that the mechanic only installed the divider plate, the one with the dome-ish curve that has to be as close as possible to the impeller vanes...
Only the 8 bolt design has the two plates. The 11 bolt design uses one divider plate that must be close to the impeller for proper operation. From your description, the mechanic seems to have installed the plate correctly.

That said, you are probably right. If there was no problem before with the 8 bolt setup, and now you're running that hot with an 11 bolt setup, the problem is there somewhere. You're searching in the right area.

One thought I just had, how fast is the new pump turning compared to the 8 bolt setup? Is the water pump pulley the same size as before? Also probably worth pulling the pump again just to verify that only the one divider plate is installed, and that it is adjusted properly close to the impeller. This will also confirm what type of impeller you have (cast or stamped steel). You may or may not find the problem quickly, but each step gives peace of mind to move on to the next potential problem. Process of elimination.

Hope that helps.

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  #1370  
Old 08-10-2020, 03:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister Pontiac View Post
Only the 8 bolt design has the two plates. The 11 bolt design uses one divider plate that must be close to the impeller for proper operation. From your description, the mechanic seems to have installed the plate correctly.

That said, you are probably right. If there was no problem before with the 8 bolt setup, and now you're running that hot with an 11 bolt setup, the problem is there somewhere. You're searching in the right area.

One thought I just had, how fast is the new pump turning compared to the 8 bolt setup? Is the water pump pulley the same size as before? Also probably worth pulling the pump again just to verify that only the one divider plate is installed, and that it is adjusted properly close to the impeller. This will also confirm what type of impeller you have (cast or stamped steel). You may or may not find the problem quickly, but each step gives peace of mind to move on to the next potential problem. Process of elimination.

Hope that helps.
Thanks for the reply.
Knowing that there is only supposed to be one plate inside the water pump to timing chain housing is extremely helpful!
The pulley sizes all changed because of the Wraptor. The mechanic wants to try the mechanical fan next, but without the factory shroud. The Wraptor pushed everything forward and the fan would be too deep in the shroud to function properly. That's easier to try than taking everything off to check the gap between the water pump impeller and the divider plate, but I still suspect that I have too large a gap between the two.

  #1371  
Old 08-10-2020, 07:53 AM
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It may sound stupid and I am not trying to insult anyone's intelligence, but with going to the serpentine belt are you sure you have the belt routed correctly? I have seen it before that the routing was wrong the water pump was turning wrong direction. Not on a conversion kit, but on a car that came factory equipped with a serpentine belt, and the belt got replaced and then started overheating.

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  #1372  
Old 08-10-2020, 02:48 PM
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The 11 bolt has one plate, incorrectly called a "divider". The "divider was the internal plate for an 8 bolt. On a 11 bolt, the single plate closes off the chamber with the impeller and directs the flow to the sides of the block. It should have only a center hole about the size of a circle formed by the inside edges of the vanes.

One thing that may be missed is that the 11 bolt timing chain housing also has tubes in it that mate up with the outlet holes in the pump/plate combination. The mating surface of the tubes has rubber "O" rings to mate with the pump closing plate to direct flow to the block cooling jacket on each side. The tubes and the "O" rings MUST be used on an 1 bolt.

George

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  #1373  
Old 08-10-2020, 04:32 PM
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Tubes installed, and I just specifically asked if the O rings were also installed with them.
Yes, one plate. I was on the phone with CVF and Cold Case tech support today.
CVF says cast impellers on the pumps they provide (the good ones vs stamped steel). Yes, it turns in the normal direction and the belt is on correctly, no slippage.
According to Cold Case, they like .060 clearance, and I am sure it's no less than 1/16th inch. I am going to pressure test the radiator and cooling system while it's running and see if the pressure drops when RPMs go up. THAT would indicate a water pump impeller efficiency problem.

  #1374  
Old 09-14-2020, 02:06 AM
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MAJOR UPDATE!
I finally made the time to remove the
Cold Case/Max Performance dual 12" electric fans and shroud assembly. Keep in mind that this is the fans and shroud assembly that Cold Case, my radiator manufacturer, recommended.
THE FANS AND SHROUD ASSEMBLY FROM THEM FAILED to keep the 421 from running hot!
Part numbers (to avoid in my opinion) is:
EF18A dual 12" shroud 15.5" GTO
FAN12 12" ELECTRIC FAN 1400CFM (Qty 2)
I am going to contact Cold Case/Max Performance tomorrow (Monday) and let them know without ANY doubt that their fans and shroud assembly are the reason why the GTO ran hot, not "a little" but up to 230° To be clear, I had each fan on a separate, dedicated 70 amp relay and power circuit, and the Dakota Digital PAC-2800BT electronic fan(s) control module, had them set to come on at 175 and 177 each, both to be on ANY time the AC was on. There was no way to make them "work better" to resolve the overheating problem.
Unfortunately, the factory mechanical fan shroud doesn't work with the Wraptor because it puts the fan too deep in the shroud. I could probably cut back the shroud to make it shallower, but I have another plan.
I am not going to keep the mechanical fan in place, even though it greatly improved the cooling of the 421, and here's why (I'm open to comments and suggestions, but I am executing this plan) Previously with the dual electric fans and shroud assembly, the cooling system temperature would run in the high 190s, around 195-200° NO AC, and speeds around 40-45 average. Within a minute or less of turning the AC system on, the temperature would rapidly increase and get as high as 235° still constantly moving at 45-55 mph. If I kept the AC on, and stopped the car, idling at a 900-1K RPM, it would gradually cool down some. If I turned off the AC, car not moving, 900 RPM idle, it would rapidly cool down into the low 190s high 180s. Raising the idle RPMs would bring the temps up again, NO AC, into the 190s.
With the factory mechanical fan, NO shroud, I got STEADY 186-190 degree temps, and with the AC on, the highest it went was low 200s like 201, 202. Turning the AC off and driving, the temps would drop back into the high 180s, low 190s.
BUT and here's the main reason why I want to switch to the CCI 1790 16" electric 2 speed fan and shroud assembly. AT IDLE, sitting still, AC ON, the temps would rise into the 190s. I think a shroud would help that, but I KNOW the electric fan will be running at full speed under those circumstances, and I think that will keep it cooler.
I'll follow-up again once I get the single larger electric fan and shroud assembly installed and tested on the road.
I want to add that Max Performance aka Cold Case tech and sales have been GREAT to work with. Hopefully they will give me a FULL REFUND on the fans and shroud assembly they recommended that doesn't do the job.

  #1375  
Old 09-14-2020, 06:35 AM
chrisp chrisp is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avman View Post
MAJOR UPDATE!
I finally made the time to remove the
Cold Case/Max Performance dual 12" electric fans and shroud assembly. Keep in mind that this is the fans and shroud assembly that Cold Case, my radiator manufacturer, recommended.
THE FANS AND SHROUD ASSEMBLY FROM THEM FAILED to keep the 421 from running hot!
Part numbers (to avoid in my opinion) is:
EF18A dual 12" shroud 15.5" GTO
FAN12 12" ELECTRIC FAN 1400CFM (Qty 2)
I am going to contact Cold Case/Max Performance tomorrow (Monday) and let them know without ANY doubt that their fans and shroud assembly are the reason why the GTO ran hot, not "a little" but up to 230° To be clear, I had each fan on a separate, dedicated 70 amp relay and power circuit, and the Dakota Digital PAC-2800BT electronic fan(s) control module, had them set to come on at 175 and 177 each, both to be on ANY time the AC was on. There was no way to make them "work better" to resolve the overheating problem.
Unfortunately, the factory mechanical fan shroud doesn't work with the Wraptor because it puts the fan too deep in the shroud. I could probably cut back the shroud to make it shallower, but I have another plan.
I am not going to keep the mechanical fan in place, even though it greatly improved the cooling of the 421, and here's why (I'm open to comments and suggestions, but I am executing this plan) Previously with the dual electric fans and shroud assembly, the cooling system temperature would run in the high 190s, around 195-200° NO AC, and speeds around 40-45 average. Within a minute or less of turning the AC system on, the temperature would rapidly increase and get as high as 235° still constantly moving at 45-55 mph. If I kept the AC on, and stopped the car, idling at a 900-1K RPM, it would gradually cool down some. If I turned off the AC, car not moving, 900 RPM idle, it would rapidly cool down into the low 190s high 180s. Raising the idle RPMs would bring the temps up again, NO AC, into the 190s.
With the factory mechanical fan, NO shroud, I got STEADY 186-190 degree temps, and with the AC on, the highest it went was low 200s like 201, 202. Turning the AC off and driving, the temps would drop back into the high 180s, low 190s.
BUT and here's the main reason why I want to switch to the CCI 1790 16" electric 2 speed fan and shroud assembly. AT IDLE, sitting still, AC ON, the temps would rise into the 190s. I think a shroud would help that, but I KNOW the electric fan will be running at full speed under those circumstances, and I think that will keep it cooler.
I'll follow-up again once I get the single larger electric fan and shroud assembly installed and tested on the road.
I want to add that Max Performance aka Cold Case tech and sales have been GREAT to work with. Hopefully they will give me a FULL REFUND on the fans and shroud assembly they recommended that doesn't do the job.
Good luck on the refund.

  #1376  
Old 09-14-2020, 09:19 AM
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I'd be looking at having a fabricator build you a nice tapered shroud to use with the factory mechanical fan. Heck, if you are into tedious work ... you could build a mold and make one out of glass. There are probably very few electric setups that will draw as much air as a shrouded factory fan at idle.

  #1377  
Old 09-15-2020, 11:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisp View Post
Good luck on the refund.
It's hard to get inflection from the written word. I can't tell if you are sincere or suggesting that it may be difficult?
I got a RMA and return shipping instructions from Cold Case/Max Performance, who are primary sponsors of this forum, and that may be an understatement as to how great a role they play in this site's existence. I wouldn't let that prevent me from being honest, give praise, or criticism, but I think it's worth noting.
I made the call, explained my problem, troubleshooting process, and undeniable conclusions. I believe they were going to offer a different fan solution, but were not argumentative and I have nothing negative to report on all of my interactions with them. I will receive a full refund once they get the fans and shroud back.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dataway View Post
I'd be looking at having a fabricator build you a nice tapered shroud to use with the factory mechanical fan. Heck, if you are into tedious work ... you could build a mold and make one out of glass. There are probably very few electric setups that will draw as much air as a shrouded factory fan at idle.
I appreciate the advice, and I don't doubt what you are saying, but the only remaining improvement to be made is keeping the engine cool at idle when the car is stationary, and that is a big reason why I am going to the 16" 2,500 CFM two speed single fan and shroud assembly. Like I said in my last post, the 16" fan will run at full speed with the AC on, and whether the AC is on or not, the Dakota Digital PAC-2800BT module will control the fan speed according to the temperature, and I think it will move more air under the only circumstance that I still would like better cooling, and that is at idle, car not moving. I do appreciate the suggestion, and I did ask for advice or comments, but I'm confident this will work well. Whatever the results, I will definitely post them here. The fan comes in tomorrow, and I expect to have it installed no later than this weekend.
Thanks!

  #1378  
Old 09-16-2020, 08:35 AM
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Make sure you have all your baffles in place so it's only pulling outside air at a stand still .. they love to recirc underhood air if they can find a place, hence all the seals around the frame horns and core support on AC cars. Also the one that goes beneath the radiator, between it and the rail of the core support. At speed it's not a problem because of the positive pressure in front of the radiator ... but at a stand still it can be. Let us know how it works.

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  #1379  
Old 09-16-2020, 09:49 AM
avman avman is offline
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Thanks for the advice. That is one thing that I did NOT check with the dual 12 fans and shroud, mainly because of two reasons: The aluminum shroud attached to the sides of the radiator, so no gaps to check on the sides. The other reason is the temps were SO high when the car was in motion, even if there were multiple gaps on the top and bottom of the shroud to radiator, it wouldn't have made enough of a difference.
Since I plan on making this 16" electric fan and shroud permanent, I will make sure to close ANY gaps I see, and I appreciate the advice!

  #1380  
Old 09-16-2020, 02:03 PM
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What kind of fan? Most single fan installs don't move enough air. You need at least a true 3000cfm to get it under control, but really, more like 4000cfm or more.

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