[grandville455]

We'll AFter Talking with Steve C, He suggested that I have my current new springs checked, why not car is down anyway, well At my Target IH of 1.750 the pressures were only 145! At my current IH of 1.800 they tested only at 130! They are advertised as 130 @ 1.8500 install. So I am Not sure I am confortable with only that amount for this setup, waiting to hear back from Dave, to get His input also.

[ponjohn]

Originally Posted by grandville455

We'll AFter Talking with Steve C, He suggested that I have my current new springs checked, why not car is down anyway, well At my Target IH of 1.750 the pressures were only 145! At my current IH of 1.800 they tested only at 130! They are advertised as 130 @ 1.8500 install. So I am Not sure I am confortable with only that amount for this setup, waiting to hear back from Dave, to get His input also.

And these springs were new when the motor was assembled or did you change them later?

[grandville455]

Originally Posted by ponjohn

And these springs were new when the motor was assembled or did you change them later?

Just put them in when I was chasing that motor noise, there is only 7 passes on them!

[ponjohn]

Originally Posted by grandville455

Just put them in when I was chasing that motor noise, there is only 7 passes on them!

Wow!

[Steve C.]

Ring a bell ? Remenber the horror stories regarding the Comp 995 valve spring. And cars nosing over at rpm, lifter crashing with XE lobes !!!

This is two people I know that have tested these 99893 springs at both 1.750" IH and 1.785" IH, both had the same 145 lbs spring pressure. The old catalog I have suggests they should be 167 lbs at 1.750" IH. I know of others that state about 165 and 160 at 1.750" IH. One set was checked after the dyno session and Darby after 7 passes. Springs will not only lose pressure after run-in, but often don't even cut the mustard new. Always varify the actual pressure at the actual installed height. Check your new springs on a Rimac machine (or similar) at your local machine shop. Keep a eye on them, especially if racing a lot or banging on them with a solid roller set up.

Once I bought a set of Lunati springs new from Butler that were off 19-20 lbs at their rated installed height. Called Butler, he checked the three remaining sets on his shelf. Two tested similar to mine.

Needless to say, start losing spring pressure as the valve closes on a solid roller set up and other than just nosing over things have the potential to get worse over time.

I wonder if the infamous 'Road Paver' hyd roller cam would be happy with the heivier hydraulic roller lifters and only 115 lbs seat pressure ? Or if it starts nosing over at 6000 rpms with 130 lbs seat pressure ?


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[grandville455]

I will be taking my old springs that were on the heads since 08 when i bought them and have a couple of those tested monday, very curious to see where those are at! I can see why my motor wasn't happy up near 5800 or more with only 130 seat pressure!

[Steve C.]

"I'd be very interested to see an SD ( Comp Lobes) cam replicated with Bullet asymmetric lobes."

Interesting thought.

Comment from Harold Brookshire:

"I joined the guys at Competition Cams as their original cam designer. I brought the concept of the unsymmetrical cam with me, and started developing it. To fill in a hole in their inherited hydraulic cam line, I designed a cam we called the 268 High Energy, using the same technigues I was using on my roller cams, including unsymmetricalness."

What I'm leading up to, I'm of the understanding the Comp Magnum High Lift Hydraulic Roller lobes are unsymmetrical like the old Ultradyne lobes, as are the Comp XE lobes today. Both of which are designed with differant opening and closing rates. If I'm incorrect about this assumption, please let me know. Either way it shouldn't be difficult to obtain similar lobes at Bullet. They have the rights and masters for the UltraDyne lobes and have their own design profiles. You could probably get close just looking at their lobe listings.
http://www.bulletcams.com/

Just call them up and order a custom, when you get it then you can name it with your own glitchey name The Road Grinder ? Old Fistfull ?

Now if you get into details like similar valve timing events regarding opening and closing numbers between the two companies, ScreamingChief would find it of interest. like when he posted a roller cam version of the Comp 290B HFT cam. He's good at that stuff. Might be fun.

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[TCSGTO]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

"I did notice a couple of problems related specifically to the cam, and to the rocker arms. The base circle on these cams is NOT consistent. Depending on which position the lobe is in the lash will vary a few thousanths. I tried several methods when running the valves, following the firing order, TDC of the #1 piston and 180 degrees from TDC, positioning the lobe so its exactly 180 degrees from the full lift point, and intake valve fully open/exhaust valve just starting to open.

You will get different readings for each method. Sort of bothered me at first, but then I just figured being out a thousanth or so really isn't going to hurt anything as the engine really doesn't seem to care and the valvetrain was quiet.
....Cliff

I noticed the same thing when I degreed my Old Faithful cam. The base circle had about .002-.003 runout. Makes it almost impossible to get an accurate lash with everything installed. I agree on picking your chosen method of adjustment and being consistent with it. With this hybrid set up if it's noisy it's too loose. With aluminum heads as long as there is any clearance at all cold you'll be ok.

[ponjohn]

Originally Posted by Steve C.

"I'd be very interested to see an SD ( Comp Lobes) cam replicated with Bullet asymmetric lobes."

Interesting thought.

Comment from Harold Brookshire:

"I joined the guys at Competition Cams as their original cam designer. I brought the concept of the unsymmetrical cam with me, and started developing it. To fill in a hole in their inherited hydraulic cam line, I designed a cam we called the 268 High Energy, using the same technigues I was using on my roller cams, including unsymmetricalness."

What I'm leading up to, I'm of the understanding the Comp Magnum High Lift Hydraulic Roller lobes are unsymmetrical like the old Ultradyne lobes, as are the Comp XE lobes today. Both of which are designed with differant opening and closing rates. If I'm incorrect about this assumption, please let me know. Either way it shouldn't be difficult to obtain similar lobes at Bullet. They have the rights and masters for the UltraDyne lobes and have their own design profiles. You could probably get close just looking at their lobe listings.
http://www.bulletcams.com/

Just call them up and order a custom, when you get it then you can name it with your own glitchey name The Road Grinder ? Old Fistfull ?

Now if you get into details like similar valve timing events regarding opening and closing numbers between the two companies, ScreamingChief would find it of interest. like when he posted a roller cam version of the Comp 290B HFT cam. He's good at that stuff. Might be fun.

.

Steve-

I should clarify.

I'd like to see a cam made from over the counter lobes and get as close as possible.

I think there is a lot of value on street strip motor to have asymmetric lobes and protect the valve springs.

[ponjohn]

Originally Posted by TCSGTO

I noticed the same thing when I degreed my Old Faithful cam. The base circle had about .002-.003 runout. Makes it almost impossible to get an accurate lash with everything installed. I agree on picking your chosen method of adjustment and being consistent with it. With this hybrid set up if it's noisy it's too loose. With aluminum heads as long as there is any clearance at all cold you'll be ok.

This probably isn't a problem with a purely hydraulic valve train. When you put a solid roller on this it is going to amplify it.

I wonder if the solid roller cams have the same run out?

[grandville455]

I'm going to use the Method Dave told me to use which is exhaust just opens , adjust intake, then follow the firing order doing the same for all intakes, then close exh til intake opens fully and closes fully then do exh valve, and following the firing order again for all them . I did this last night when setting up for my pushrod length and the lobe is 180 from the base circle.

[Steve C.]

Ponjohn- This might be of interest. here is a post made by Harold Brookshire that brings up the subject of a cams intensity. It ties into the subject with the idea of lobes with differant opening and closing intensity.

Hello, everyone!!!
Scott asked me to drop by and talk a little about cams, so here I am.
Although I have done only a few Buick cams, I have done an awful lot of Pontiacs and Oldsmobiles. Jim Butler, famed Pontiac engine builder, was my largest buyer of camshafts at UltraDyne, doing over $65,000 a year. He thought they worked very well, until the Recession of 2000 left us with an inability to keep him supplied.
As was said, I do all my cam designs as unsymmetrical cam designs. Although I design my hydraulics just like I do my roller profiles, The information I will give applies just to my hydraulic flat profiles.
Using Harvey Crane's Hydraulic Intensity formula, ALL my .842" tappet designs have an Hydraulic Intensity of 53.88 degrees.
This is the duration at .050" subtracted from the duration at .004", where the SAE has decided that hydraulic durations begin and end.
This Hydraulic Intensity of 53.88 is considered to be very aggressive, yet the cams do not have that 'sewing-machine' sound to them.
The opening side of the cam has a 45.26 degree equivalent Hydraulic Intensity, and the closing side is 62.50 degrees Hydaulic Intensity. The SEATING velocity of the valve is only 37% as fast as the OPENING velocity. This seating velocity is only slightly faster than GM uses on all their engines. At UltraDyne, I have had many hydraulic, as well as solids, go over 100,000 miles on the street. I keep the edge of the tappet about .018" away from the point of contact between the cam and tappet.
That 'sewing-machine' sound is caused by the valves hitting the valve seats too fast. The original High Energy cams, which I designed, produced that sound. I was shutting the valve at .0007"/*, only .0002"/* faster than GM. After hearing about the noise, a little thought made me realise the .0002"/* was only 40% faster than GM.
You do not have to shut the valve faster to keep the charge from getting out.
You have to design the cam so the charge, or inertia ram, is still filling the cylinder when you shut the valve.
Every cam I design, hydraulic, hydraulic roller, solid, solid roller, is designed using the same theory I have used for the past 29 years, and they all make excellent bottom-end torque for their duration.
I will keep checking in to continue to answer questions.
UDHarold
Source: http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?t=188048


Roadpaver- Comp hydraulic roller lobes 3115B & 3116B
246/252 at .050
164 /169 at .200
.4000" / .4000" lobe lift
112 lobe separation

Old UltraDyne Hydraulic roller lobes from my catalog on hand:

296 / 245 / 167 / .3823" lobe lift
303 / 253 / 175 / .3823" lobe lift

I presume these lobes are listed on the Bullet site. Call Bullet, order it with a 112 lobe separation and make up the lift with a higher rocker ratio if desired. Or possibly they have similar lobes with additional lobe lift, but you might evaluate that thought considering the additional .200 duration. Much depends on the cylinder heads involved. Many tout UltraDyne lobes are easy on parts.




.

[ponjohn]

Steve-

These lobes are real close to the cam you posted just above.
lobe # adv 050 .200 lobe
HR304/403 304 246 166 0.403
HR314/400 314 252 169 0.400

These are from the bullet master lobe list. As a note they are both CRA, R being an rpm lobe and A for asymmetric

[Steve C.]

There we go, a new kid on the block... the RoadGrinder cam.

Now call Bullet and see if they would be happy with those lobes using solid roller lifters at 6000+ shift rpm in a race car with 130 lbs seat pressure

Bwahahahahahahaha





.

[TCSGTO]

Originally Posted by grandville455

We'll AFter Talking with Steve C, He suggested that I have my current new springs checked, why not car is down anyway, well At my Target IH of 1.750 the pressures were only 145! At my current IH of 1.800 they tested only at 130! They are advertised as 130 @ 1.8500 install. So I am Not sure I am confortable with only that amount for this setup, waiting to hear back from Dave, to get His input also.

When the pressure was checked was the retainer on top of the spring, or was there a spigot on the tester for the inner spring? The retainer has a step that pushes the inner spring down about 1/8" more than the outer and could make readings lower if it wasn't on there.

[Cliff R]

There we go, a new kid on the block... the RoadGrinder cam.

Now call Bullet and see if they would be happy with those lobes using solid roller lifters at 6000+ shift rpm in a race car with 130 lbs seat pressure

Bwahahahahahahaha


"They will tell you to use Pacaloy springs with 280 lbs seat pressure and to move the cam to a 108 LSA!.....LOL......Cliff"

[grandville455]

Originally Posted by TCSGTO

When the pressure was checked was the retainer on top of the spring, or was there a spigot on the tester for the inner spring? The retainer has a step that pushes the inner spring down about 1/8" more than the outer and could make readings lower if it wasn't on there.

Good question? I don't know? Do U have a link of what that looks like,so when i go back tomorrow i can see

[Skip Fix]

Darby just take the appropriate retainer with you for them to check pressures with.

Cliff I would bet 130 would even be on the light side of pressures for most folks to use with a SFT that is not as an aggressive a lobe as the HR lobes using a SR. In fact even the NHRA "stocker" boys that have to use HFT use 150-170 seat to keep their valve train under control with their aggressive lobes.

I do agree most folks feel more pressure is safer and if they have to warranty anything from floating them from too little pressure they sure are going to recommend more. When we start using less or "off label usage"(as they say in my field) we have to take responsibilty for any "side effects".

On the other side of the coin using only as much pressure as you need does make sense. I swapped roller springs on a previoius motor in the car and I guarantee the more cylinders that got the springs it was harder to manually turn the motor over so they must suck some HP if there is more effort to spin the motor over(like using low tension rings). You just have to be prepared to accept the effects of loss of high rpm power or worse case bent valves,dented pistons from too little pressure if you are not controlling or floating the valves.

Lynn McCarty here has picked up rpm and power on his combination using alot higher pressures and specific springs and his 455 continue to make power way above the 5500-5800 ceiling for a Pontiac with iron heads.

[grandville455]

Skip
I took the retainer that i use with these springs friday and this is the pressure he found. Dave wants me to see what they are at 1.150, and if their in spec I can run them, I trust him as he is the one setting these combo's up! If Not then I will have to replace them as my almost .700 lift killed them quickly. Going back to 1.5's will be alot less stress up top also, take a look at the difference in my HS Heavy duty 1.65's rocker's I have been running and the 1.5's I got now, there alot heavier too!

[Steve C.]

On the Crower solid roller previously installed in my current 505cid combo and the UltraDyne solid roller (from Bullet) that is now installed; When I contacted both companies regarding adequate spring pressure for the lobes involved and the intended use, both companies had the exact same response. If I was racing the car or banging on it hard with a lot of rpm on the street they wanted an additional 20 pounds seat pressure over what I could use for street use only and keeping the rpm down.

Both suggested I monitor the spring pressure over time and when it dropped to a certain point it was time to replace them. After the springs are "run in", spring pressure should remain somewhat constant until the point of replacement. Many will agree that shoving additional spring shims in when they drop pressure can be a band aid fix and not recommended.





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