[WARPed]

Here is a two part interview about the use of ethanol alcohol as a
fuel source and dismissing many myths & only partial truths that have
been spoken of over the past few decades. Note: each of these
interviews are just under 30 minutes.



I am personally not one of those fanatical tree huggers by any means
but I see it as a viable economical fuel for use in the performance
arena and ALSO as being less harmful to the environment.In this I see
it as a win win for both party's - we get a fuel that makes more
power, burns cleaner, is cheaper and the tree huggers are happy too -
rarely do we get to have something that makes everyone happy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jew3ah24Zj4
　
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vq7km9TWL0

[WARPed]

This is very interesting about ethanol as a fuel and many claims of negative impacts for producing & using it. For us as performance enthusests we stand to gain by embracing this cuz the current path we are on is only going to be a growing target for tree huggers and government alike. I would love to open up a channel of communication to help educate everyone about the use of e85. Much disinformation is out there on this topic and would like to try and clear up any question anyone might have. I am sure fellow e85 users can also give their first hand knowledge too. You have heard of many "blames" that ethanol did/caused this or that but by in large the problem existed independently of the fuel being used.* Yes there are a few new rules we need to follow but are very minor and easy to adapt to compared to the positive aspects gained. And the tree huggers would be on our side for a change too.
　
*we are talking about automotive use only and not going out on tangents with other types of fuel usages

[WARPed]

Also this can not be over stressed - ethanol is not methanol

[BruceWilkie]

I dont consider myself the tree hugger type but certainly appreciate trying to maintain a healthy environment. I used to live next to a heavy pollutin factory... often not bein able to see down the block... it started treating the pollution shortly before the clean air act(1968?) took effect... People near steel mills had it far worse. The factory I lived near went out of business around 1980 and place was tore down not long after... you can still smell it if you walk nearby. The bad pollution has since moved to China.

I think there is more to gain with making use of alcohol and the by-products of making it... Also think oil still has its place but the supply is limited... sure, there is enough for awhile yet, but at some point its bound to get impractical. Wouldnt hurt to start weening ourselves from it... Now if they can get politics, corruption and greed out of both industries(and a whole bunch of other places it dont belong) we would be far better off.

E85 is certainly in my future plans and may even consider E99. (or make my own). Price of race gas is getting rediculous... E85 currently around $2.69 where I buy my 87 octane gas at $2.89. 93 octane gas is about 40 cents more... Race gas???? I dont even look anymore, its way more than I want to pay. Methanol for a race only fuel is low cost but seems to have more downside than upside...

[68blackbird]

Long term how do you address the additional moisture that winds up in the oil?

Ethanol is not going away, but I think he hit it on the head when he says its a distribution issue, which we all know is a "big money" problem. Oil company's have big money, it makes its way to politicians... that's the issue. A few tax breaks for stations with an e85 pump and it would be a whole new world.

I'm going back to gas in my 68 due purely to distribution. I just can't drive as far as I want to without having to buy fuel and e85 stations are just not frequent enough yet. I can't get e85 near our local race tracks, Houston Raceway Park and Houston Motor Sport Park. If I could, I see no reason to use anything else. I went to the local spot I normally get it... they were out... its a distribution issue.


Rich

[BruceWilkie]

Originally Posted by 68blackbird

Long term how do you address the additional moisture that winds up in the oil?

Ethanol is not going away, but I think he hit it on the head when he says its a distribution issue, which we all know is a "big money" problem. Oil company's have big money, it makes its way to politicians... that's the issue. A few tax breaks for stations with an e85 pump and it would be a whole new world.

I'm going back to gas in my 68 due purely to distribution. I just can't drive as far as I want to without having to buy fuel and e85 stations are just not frequent enough yet. I can't get e85 near our local race tracks, Houston Raceway Park and Houston Motor Sport Park. If I could, I see no reason to use anything else. I went to the local spot I normally get it... they were out... its a distribution issue.


Rich

Hang in there... distribution has improved considerably the past few years here. Initially when I got interested (around 2008)closest was about 17 miles away and next closest triple that. Now there are several in 10 mile radius of where I am. Havent looked in Nashville but did stumble on a few places outside there recently.

I would guess demand has increased or most dealers wouldnt sell it.

I figure I could make a small still and make my own ethanol if the stations go away.(probably not exactly legal but...) My current build is planned for EFI and dual fuel capability... Mainly because there are political forces at work trying to de-rail the use of ethanol. Interesting that alcohol was fuel of choice till 100 years ago when Rockefeler(sp?) and other oil companies got involved.

[WARPed]

68blackbird how hot/long did you run your motor?　
Moister in the oil usually indicated the motor has not been running at or above 150-160ish degrees long enough - two things happen the minimum temp to get e85 to vaporize has not been met - with out heat in the motor there will be oil contamination. This may be more of an issue in racing but we do change the oil fairly regularly - but on the street there is longer periods the engine is running with heat so it will be burnt off/boil out.

[BruceWilkie]

As far as moisture in fuel goes.... there are water trap fuel filters available with a drain on them and capable of high fuel flow.(5 gal minute = 300 per hour = @1800lbs/hr gas) I used this filter system on my old race car and plan to again. ( page 10 or pdf page 12 http://perma-cool.com/catalog.pdf )I used the twin 1/2" npt inlet/outlets. Summit or Jegs... Also a closed venting system like modern vehicles have would also be helpful in controlling moisture. A sump drain would be useful if vehicle sits for extended periods... actually useful with todays gas...

There is also water absorbing "socks" you can put in your tank and change out periodically. Very common up north in places where snowmobiling is popular. http://www.shadetreepowersports.com/...or-p/34-66.htm but you might find them in a motorcycle or 4 wheeler shop. There are other brands. I would think the jet ski guys have some good moisture control stuff too.

They work very good... wasnt hard to get snow in your sleds tank when fillin up or snow dust somehow finding its way into your vent system. Summer storage outside under a cover often added plenty of condensation in the tank too. Without the absorber(s) water/ice in your fuel could lead to being stranded in the middle of nowhere or engine damage (or both).(especially 2 strokes which are very mixture sensitive). I used to change mine out every few weeks in the winter. They dont cost much and small enough to put a few spares in your glove box.

[CraigG.]

Warped - I have this question and I don't want to Hyjack this thread. It does seem relevant though.

How much moisture build-up in the motor can occur when making passes in temperatures of 50 to 55 degrees and the water and oil doesn't get up to temperature?
Thanks Again, Craig

[WARPed]

Originally Posted by CraigG.

Warped - I have this question and I don't want to Hyjack this thread. It does seem relevant though.

How much moisture build-up in the motor can occur when making passes in temperatures of 50 to 55 degrees and the water and oil doesn't get up to temperature?
Thanks Again, Craig

I am probably not qualified to answer that cuz down here in FLA we rarely see such temps and even when we do is is for a VERY short period Hench it would not be an issue here. Maybe some northern folks can chime in.

[BruceWilkie]

When I lived in NY a friends BBC had moisture issues early and late season... It wouldnt get much over 140 even with a 190 tstat if below 65 at track. He but a moroso pan heater on it.

[455firebird1969]

Originally Posted by 68blackbird

Long term how do you address the additional moisture that winds up in the oil?

Rich

I have never had any moisture in the oil issues, for three seasons. And I run the oil for sixty
or seventy passes.

It sounds like a myth!

[WARPed]

I am trying to get hold a friend of mine that is a chemist to ask a question on the hygroscopic properties of ethanol to get some facts. I like to have my information verified before I talk about water & ethanol.

[455firebird1969]

I believe this is a ethanol assumption made as a result of methanol experience.

[WARPed]

Originally Posted by 455firebird1969

I believe this is a ethanol assumption made as a result of methanol experience.

Exactly! Those people need to re-read post #3 above

[GTO Dan]

I am a fan of E85 and it will be the fuel of my next race engine, but you must be aware of the differences to race gas and the nuances...

http://www.penngrade1.com/CMSFiles/F..._BRAD_PENN.pdf

[johnta1]

I believe this is a ethanol assumption made as a result of methanol experience

All alcohols are hygroscopic.
Ethanol makes less HP per pound than methanol.
All 'gasahol' type fuels are ethanol based.

So all the crap said about gas with 10% alcohol applies to E85.
All alcohol fuels require different setups than plain gasoline.
Alcohol is corrosive.
Water in the alcohol causes a lot of the problems in cars also.
(whether ethanol or methanol)

The water in the oil is mostly from race vehicles.
They don't run their cars for minutes let alone hours.
They try to keep the engine cold.
(for more HP)

If the engine is kept hot it will evaporate the water.
Idling on a race car is where most of the water in the oil comes from.

I use methanol in racing for the power it makes and the ability to keep the engine cool.

Being a lot cheaper than either gasoline or E85 is an added benefit.

Plus I know what percentage of alcohol it is at all times.

[pontiac6269]

I started running E85 in my 69 GTO back September. Using it straight or mixed with 87 octane unleaded. 461, 670 heads, Comp 292AH-10 cam, iron intake and Q-jet. Stock fuel lines, tank and pump but not original, all replaced when body was off 10 years ago. Going to upgrade to 1/2" lines and pump this winter.

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by johnta1

Plus I know what percentage of alcohol it is at all times.

This is a valid concern because due to ambient temperature the ratio of gasoline to ethanol is revised through the season change so at times it is far from being 85/15 ratio. The maximum ethanol content cannot exceed 85%, however there is no minimum number for the ethanol content and the lower ambient temperatures require probably closer to a 60/40 ratio to start at lower temps. Even in the summer time the blending can be revised because there is no minimum amount of ethanol required. If say the loading rack would be low on ethanol and they're trying to stretch it to fill orders before the next shipment, the blend ratio can be legally changed and the end consumer has no clue about the fuel he purchases is what the blend unless he tests it.

One other thing about ethanol is before it leaves the distillery it has to have some gasoline blended with it so it can't be consumed as moonshine or spirits. Some people that thought they'd just steal the ethanol and blend their own drinking liquor soon found out it has gasoline blended into it so it can't be used for consumption.

[Dragracertoo]

I've been running E-85 for 6 years and have never had a problem with it. E85 is user friendly with only adequate fuel delivery from a gas fuel pump and an E85 specific carb needed.
I have never been double- crossed by any of the myths you can make up about it either.
Don't over think it and just enjoy the savings.
We have run 9.11/147 and have had to use ether on 30 deg. days to get it to start in Northern Il.(so what!) Alky guys dump gas down their carbs to get theirs started in cold weather.I guess I could use gas too!
I would suggest drain all E85 out of the fuel system and carb. ( squirters too) for the winter,purging with gas until spring.
I also have never had an issue with the percentage of E85 after the winter blend is over .E70 has more gas (rich) just take out a jet size if it's not at 85% yet.
You can argue about what you think could be problems or use it like we do,and will continue to do so. Rich