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#21
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Given I run 30 minute and hour long races and go through 30-40 gallons a race weekend, I'd like to run pump gas, which is what I built my newest 433 using KRE's. But I seriously doubt I could get the HP I need using Iron heads and pump gas. New sanction doesn't care what compression I run or fuel.
I figured with IV heads and my current flat tops I'd end up around 11.5:1 or so, price I'd have to pay to play. For the tracks I want to run in Vintage racing over the next few years I'll have to switch sanctions to run those. Basically, bucket list racing. Vintage sanctions can be hard to jump one to the other unless your car is built to a nationally recognized class. An iron headed dual plane gets me within their rules.
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#22
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Did they change the rules or did you change organizations? |
#23
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600+hp from a 433ci on pump gas and iron heads will pretty tough in my opinion. |
#24
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Just playing around with an old desktop dyno program. 623 HP @ 7000 but it is with 13:1 CR.
Stan
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Stan Weiss/World Wide Enterprises Offering Performance Software Since 1987 http://www.magneticlynx.com/carfor/carfor.htm David Vizard & Stan Weiss' IOP / Flow / Induction Optimization - Cam Selection Software http://www.magneticlynx.com/DV Download FREE 14 Trial IOP / Flow Software http://www.magneticlynx.com/DV/Flow_..._Day_Trial.php Pontiac Pump Gas List http://www.magneticlynx.com/carfor/pont_gas.htm Using PMD Block and Heads List http://www.magneticlynx.com/carfor/pont_pmd.htm |
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#25
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Stan why did you sim 785 lift when the head profile stops at 600? |
#26
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For longevity I'm thinking 11.5:1 or so would be the easiest on the internals for hr long races, and using IV's might have a shot at 600. With such an engine I wouldn't have to swap engines but race fuel prices for a 4-5 race weekends a year gets expensive. For budget concerns building one with Iron D's for the SVRA races and use my pump gas Aluminum head engine for HSR and VDCA races is the most practical since I have two almost identical 433 short blocks and I run primarily with VDCA. SVRA runs nation wide, requires extensive travel and the Iron heads, so maybe 1-2 events a year over the next decade with them as I hit the bucket list tracks like Road America, Watkins Glen, Mosport, Mid Ohio, COTA and Laguna. Right now I run with HSR and VDCA, they allow my car to run as is, but they're regional and it took a lot of lobbying to get in with them. It gets complicated trying to race a big inch Pontiac engine competitively in Vintage Road Racing.
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#27
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Might could get by with half race gas half race gas. FWIW my zero deck flat top 400 and 614s had no audible detonation but did pick up 8 hp with race gas.
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Skip Fix 1978 Trans Am original owner 10.99 @ 124 pump gas 455 E heads, NO Bird ever! 1981 Black SE Trans Am stockish 6X 400ci, turbo 301 on a stand 1965 GTO 4 barrel 3 speed project 2004 GTO Pulse Red stock motor computer tune 13.43@103.4 1964 Impala SS 409/470ci 600 HP stroker project 1979 Camaro IAII Edelbrock head 500" 695 HP 10.33@132 3595lbs |
#28
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Stan
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Stan Weiss/World Wide Enterprises Offering Performance Software Since 1987 http://www.magneticlynx.com/carfor/carfor.htm David Vizard & Stan Weiss' IOP / Flow / Induction Optimization - Cam Selection Software http://www.magneticlynx.com/DV Download FREE 14 Trial IOP / Flow Software http://www.magneticlynx.com/DV/Flow_..._Day_Trial.php Pontiac Pump Gas List http://www.magneticlynx.com/carfor/pont_gas.htm Using PMD Block and Heads List http://www.magneticlynx.com/carfor/pont_pmd.htm |
#29
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We were over 13.5 comp with our 408 with the iron head. Going to be tough to do on pump gas I agree
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Working on going faster (and now staying dry at the same time !!) |
#30
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Torco ?
Is it possible that Torco Accelerator might work with pump gas, in order to make your race fuel a bit cheaper, but still provide enuff octane ?
https://torcousa.com/products/accelerator It's available in 6 quart cases & 5 gal pails. Don't know the cheapest current source, for total shipped price. Might depend on whether anybody still ships this without charging tax. https://www.superchargedmotorsports....RoCP20QAvD_BwE https://www.summitracing.com/parts/tic-f500010t https://www.amazon.com/-/es/Torco-F5...M53AAK93BT23CT https://autoplicity.com/1500494-torc...xoC_foQAvD_BwE Last edited by ponyakr; 10-18-2020 at 04:43 PM. |
#31
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See attached. |
#32
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Can you run E85?
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#33
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I would hit the 11.5 compression target and run Avgas as it is cheap and works.
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66 GTO Nostalgia Super Stock/Street Legal Car 421 CID, stock block, Wenzler Intake, 2- Carter 750 AFB's, 3.90 Gears, Full Factory Interior, Full Exhaust, Stock Suspension 3750LBS 9.77@136.99 Multiple NSCA/NMCA World Champion 66 GTO 389 3x2, 4 speed, 4.33 gear, Montero Red 33K original Miles 67 GTO 2dr Post, 428, Tri Power, 3.55 Gears 80 Trans Am Black SE Y84 W72 WS6 |
#34
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I am not sure what you are trying to tell.
With 0.785" Intake lift and 0.753" Exhaust lift simulation shows 623 HP @ 7000 RPM Only change made was to reduce both valve lifts 0.100" With 0.685" Intake lift and 0.653" Exhaust lift simulation shows 591 HP @ 7000 RPM with 592 HP @ 6500 RPM Stan
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Stan Weiss/World Wide Enterprises Offering Performance Software Since 1987 http://www.magneticlynx.com/carfor/carfor.htm David Vizard & Stan Weiss' IOP / Flow / Induction Optimization - Cam Selection Software http://www.magneticlynx.com/DV Download FREE 14 Trial IOP / Flow Software http://www.magneticlynx.com/DV/Flow_..._Day_Trial.php Pontiac Pump Gas List http://www.magneticlynx.com/carfor/pont_gas.htm Using PMD Block and Heads List http://www.magneticlynx.com/carfor/pont_pmd.htm |
#35
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The SD ported 272 cfm #48s, 70cc heads I sold might get you close. I believe the fella I sold them to might be interested in selling them. As far as I know they are still new as SD shipped them to me.
Probably get them for around 2K. They were very nice heads, wish I did not sell them. |
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#36
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The prices I've been getting behind the scenes for 614's and 722's is just ridiculous considering I only need cores, they'd be built specific anyway. I can't put 3 grand into a set of cores and start from there. I did talk to a couple of our "head" players about building IV's in Iron since prices are getting close to where Iron V's were only a few years ago, but they don't think there is a market for Iron IV heads. Which I don't understand, if I could buy built new Iron IV's for 3 grand I'd do it, but I can't put 3 grand into 50 year old IV cores and then another 3 grand into the build. Yet people will drop 3 grand to have old D ports ported and built.
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#37
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441 Pontiac Ram Air IV E-85
That is what I want to do, build a 4" stroke, 3" main, perhaps with a 1967 400 block (thicker walls), with Ram AIr IV 614 heads with 12.75 or so compression ration, with E-85. How doable is that, assuming a consistent true E-85 supply with a quadrajet. (Or some EFI setup that adjusts on the fly for E-70etc)
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1970 Lucerne Blue Firebird Trans Am, deluxe blue interior. Original Ram Air III, M-21, 3.73. Being built as a 4" stroke "434" with SR 614 Ram Air IV heads 1972+ Lucerne Blue 4-door hardtop "what if" T-41 Le Mans Sport GT/Grand Am concepts. Equipped with future 3" journal "455 HO"/"what if" prototype "SD 455". What if GM had continued production of the 1970-72 GM A body somewhere in the southern hemisphere? |
#38
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I think you can reach your goal with either head but it will be considerably easier with the round ports and they will be more reliable. The d-ports will have to flow at least 260 cfm but need a maxed out exhaust port to make good power at 7k on a 4" stroke engine (I hope that's what you are using). I'm not sure how the thin ports will hold up under road race conditions. Not uncommon for them to start leaking water after a lot of 1/4 mile passes. Years ago one of the reproduction parts companies were going to make the RAIV heads but unfortunately the "made in the USA" company they hired decided it was easier to steal the front money and spend years in court than get off their azzes and produce the parts they were hired to make. |
#39
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Butler was hooked up with someone years ago that was supposed to reproduce RAIVs that went 290cfm as cast. Myself, I would like to see some 614s cast in steel. Then you could easily "wide port" them and have something special. Do them with modern chamber and plug placement, killer head IMO. Stock looking street racers could make some money with them . As far as weight, its not like you are taking 100lbs off your engine like a BBC going from iron to aluminum. I have kicked myself in the @$$ for not buying some 614s when I had the chance. Way back when I started my 455 build(85) I bought 197 HO heads for 600$, good deal. But I could have had 614 RAIVs for 900$ untouched from a guy Dan knew. I cheaped out. Ended up with nice heads but would rather have the smaller chamber RAIVs. |
#40
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Can the OP run E85 fuel?
__________________
Wernher Von Braun warned before his retirement from NASA back in 1972, that the next world war would be against the ETs! And he was not talking about 1/8 or 1/4 mile ETs! 1) 1940s 100% silver 4 cup tea server set. Two dry rotted 14 x 10 Micky Thompson slicks. 1) un-mailed in gift coupon from a 1972 box of corn flakes. Two pairs of brown leather flip flops, never seen more then 2 mph. Education is what your left with once you forget things! |
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