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Old 04-30-2020, 09:37 AM
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Wow, sounds like the bean counters were asleep at the switch.

Maybe you can also answer this question? Were the 71-76 frame-chassis design still unique for each division on the big cars (like in 70 and older) or did they go to a GM standard frame like on the A body?

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1969 Fbird (Base, 350 & Sprint Cvt’s - 400HO & TA Hardtops)
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1969 GTO (2 Cvt, 2 Hardtops & Judge Hardtop)
1969 Catalina (3 Cvt’s & a 2dr hardtop)
1969 Ventura 2 Seat Wagon
1969 Executive 4dr Sedan
1969 Bonnie Cvt
1969 Bonnie 3 Seat Wagon (2 of them)
1969 Bonnie Brougham (4dr Hardtop & Cvt)
1969 Grand Prix SJ (2 of them)
1969 2+2 2dr Hardtop (Canadian model)
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Old 04-30-2020, 10:24 AM
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From what I understand the Frames and suspension parts are the same year for year on all the divisions 71-76 B-Bodies. I am not sure on the 71-72 model year frames though. Do say the 71-72 Catalina Frames interchange with the Belair/Impala? Then the longer Bonneville/Grandville frames interchange with the longer Buick & Olds Models?

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  #23  
Old 04-30-2020, 11:51 AM
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I do know the frames for the most part interchanged year to year (unlike in the '60s and earlier) but I think the low end Chevy cars were shorter by 2" or so, so it's not a 1:1 interchange across all B-body cars. The largest Buick and Olds cars (Electra and 98) actually interchanged with Cadillac (DeVille). I believe the wagons also shared this longer frame length but they weren't interchangeable. After 1973 the frame length was the same as the 1971-1972 Catalina.

The real design flaw I've found on the '71-76 big cars is the double lined roof. It was supposed to stiffen the car and improve rollover and crash protection, but there was no drainage for moisture out of it. Between the sound deadener they used and two metal layers of unprotected metal that were bare when they left the factory, rust is an issue. The majority of cars I've found have roof rot of some form, vinyl top cars especially. On 4 different station wagons I've found perfect floors, frames, and bodies except for holes in the roof in places you wouldn't think a car would rust.

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Old 04-30-2020, 11:52 AM
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I believe from 1971 on, B-body frames and suspensions were shared across the different GM brands. They were an improvement over the previous generation; not that they were turned into sports cars or anything, but they handled pretty well for the big boats that they were.

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Old 04-30-2020, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben M. View Post
Rear glass is different between Catalina\Bonneville and the Grandville cars. The Grandville has a flatter sloped rear glass piece while the Catalina\Bonneville has a wrap-around style. This means roof and upper quarter panels are different as is the package tray and trunk filler panel between the glass and trunk lid. Trunk lids are the same!
I think the Grand Ville roofline was supposed to be more 'formal', whatever that may have meant. I prefer the sleeker roofline of the Catalinas and Bonnevilles.

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Old 04-30-2020, 11:58 AM
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Quote:
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I think the Grand Ville roofline was supposed to be more 'formal', whatever that may have meant. I prefer the sleeker roofline of the Catalinas and Bonnevilles.
Yup, that's what the literature says. And I agree, I really like the Catalina\Bonneville roof line better. Better visibility out the back and it does appear a bit more sporty and less stuffy. The Grandville was obviously Pontiac's attempt to grab a higher end car buyer since the performance aspect of the division was somewhat constrained and mostly left to the A & F body buyers.

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Old 04-30-2020, 04:17 PM
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Did a little looking at brochures and part books about the short versus long wheelbase versions of the 71-72 big Pontiac...

The wheelbase difference was 2.5" (126" vs 123.5")
The overall length difference was 3.8" (226.2 vs 222.4"). Since the quarters are the exact same lengths as are the doors than it's all in the fenders? That would mean they have extra length in the front and back of the fender (2.5" behind the wheel and 1.3" ahead of the wheel). Make sense?

By comparison the older cars had all the extra length in the trunk...

69-70...Wheelbase (125" vs 122"), and three additional inches in the rear overhang for 6" total extra length (plus half an inch on the Bonnie only for the rear bumper pad).

In 65-68 the wheelbase was also 3" different (124" vs 121") but the rear overhang was 4" longer for a total of 7".

In 62-64 the differences were the same as 65-68 but the wheelbase was one inch less all around (123"-120"). In 61 the wheelbase was (123" vs 119") but the overall length difference was still 7".

In 59-60 the cars were a bit bigger than what followed, 2" difference in wheelbase (124" vs 122") but again that 7" total length difference.

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1969 Fbird (Base, 350 & Sprint Cvt’s - 400HO & TA Hardtops)
1969 LeMans (2dr & 4dr Hardtop and a Cvt)
1969 LeMans Safari 2 seat Wagon
1969 GTO (2 Cvt, 2 Hardtops & Judge Hardtop)
1969 Catalina (3 Cvt’s & a 2dr hardtop)
1969 Ventura 2 Seat Wagon
1969 Executive 4dr Sedan
1969 Bonnie Cvt
1969 Bonnie 3 Seat Wagon (2 of them)
1969 Bonnie Brougham (4dr Hardtop & Cvt)
1969 Grand Prix SJ (2 of them)
1969 2+2 2dr Hardtop (Canadian model)
  #28  
Old 04-30-2020, 05:10 PM
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Quote:
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The overall length difference was 3.8" (226.2 vs 222.4"). Since the quarters are the exact same lengths as are the doors than it's all in the fenders?
Actually it's the nose and fenders. The fenders are almost the same length, but the wheel well opening is different and unless you know to look it's possible to miss it. There was a guy here years ago who bought one of these that someone had put the wrong fender on and it bolted up just fine but looked "off" from a distance. The wheel wasn't centered in the opening.

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Old 04-30-2020, 05:23 PM
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So the fender wheel opening is shifted 2.5” forward but the car still needs to be 3.8” longer. Is the nose cap that much bigger? then the bumper brackets must be also that much longer?

I don’t know why but this sort of obscure stuff fascinates me. Like trying to climb into the heads of the engineers from half a century ago.

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1969 Fbird (Base, 350 & Sprint Cvt’s - 400HO & TA Hardtops)
1969 LeMans (2dr & 4dr Hardtop and a Cvt)
1969 LeMans Safari 2 seat Wagon
1969 GTO (2 Cvt, 2 Hardtops & Judge Hardtop)
1969 Catalina (3 Cvt’s & a 2dr hardtop)
1969 Ventura 2 Seat Wagon
1969 Executive 4dr Sedan
1969 Bonnie Cvt
1969 Bonnie 3 Seat Wagon (2 of them)
1969 Bonnie Brougham (4dr Hardtop & Cvt)
1969 Grand Prix SJ (2 of them)
1969 2+2 2dr Hardtop (Canadian model)
  #30  
Old 04-30-2020, 05:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben M. View Post
The Grandville was obviously Pontiac's attempt to grab a higher end car buyer since the performance aspect of the division was somewhat constrained and mostly left to the A & F body buyers.
With the 1971-1976 big cars they abandoned most any sporting pretensions, you couldn't even get bucket seats. There were a handful of cars in 1971 with three on the tree manual transmissions, but that got dropped midyear and from then on they were all automatics.

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Old 04-30-2020, 06:30 PM
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Basically though it looks like in 71 they just did a name shift? Like they did in 1970 with the A body badging. (Custom S became LeMans and LeMans became LeMans Sport).

Looking at a 69-70 vs 71-72 brochures it looks like the 4 levels of trim and 2 wheelbases proceeded exactly the same with just names changed...

...Catalina stayed the same with shorter body, plain interior and plain outer trim.
...Ventura was renamed Catalina brougham, same size and exterior trim with a step up interior.
...Executive was renamed Bonneville, longer body but same trim inside and out as the Catalina brougham
...Bonneville was renamed grandville, same longer size but with fancier interior (folding armrest, fully molded door panels etc) and the regular trim upgrade outside with fancier grille, taillights and extra decor moldings.
...Bonneville Brougham was renamed grandville custom, basically just fancier upholstery.

The one major change in the above pecking order was that they created a 2 bbl 455 to be an in between the smaller Cat engine (350 or 400) and the 455 4bbl Grandville engine for the new Bonnie. In previous years the Cat and the executive typically shared engines.

The de-sporting of the big cars had started well before 71. In 68 the 2+2 was axed, in 69 all consoles and all floor shifts (including all 4 speeds) were axed, in 70 bucket seat option got the axe and the base Catalina engine got downgraded from a high compression 400 to a low compression 350. The smallest engine in a big Pontiac since 1957.

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My Break Away Squad
1969 Fbird (Base, 350 & Sprint Cvt’s - 400HO & TA Hardtops)
1969 LeMans (2dr & 4dr Hardtop and a Cvt)
1969 LeMans Safari 2 seat Wagon
1969 GTO (2 Cvt, 2 Hardtops & Judge Hardtop)
1969 Catalina (3 Cvt’s & a 2dr hardtop)
1969 Ventura 2 Seat Wagon
1969 Executive 4dr Sedan
1969 Bonnie Cvt
1969 Bonnie 3 Seat Wagon (2 of them)
1969 Bonnie Brougham (4dr Hardtop & Cvt)
1969 Grand Prix SJ (2 of them)
1969 2+2 2dr Hardtop (Canadian model)
  #32  
Old 04-30-2020, 09:09 PM
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The nose is definitely larger. You can see the difference in these two photos.
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Old 04-30-2020, 10:16 PM
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Thanks, those pics tell the story! I’d love to have a pair side by side with a tape measure!

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1969 Fbird (Base, 350 & Sprint Cvt’s - 400HO & TA Hardtops)
1969 LeMans (2dr & 4dr Hardtop and a Cvt)
1969 LeMans Safari 2 seat Wagon
1969 GTO (2 Cvt, 2 Hardtops & Judge Hardtop)
1969 Catalina (3 Cvt’s & a 2dr hardtop)
1969 Ventura 2 Seat Wagon
1969 Executive 4dr Sedan
1969 Bonnie Cvt
1969 Bonnie 3 Seat Wagon (2 of them)
1969 Bonnie Brougham (4dr Hardtop & Cvt)
1969 Grand Prix SJ (2 of them)
1969 2+2 2dr Hardtop (Canadian model)
  #34  
Old 05-04-2020, 03:22 PM
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More work continues to get done. Got a new fuel pump and fuel lines installed. I hooked up an electric pump to the tank and it didn't pull anything from it, so the tank appears to be empty (it sounds empty when I bang on it as well). Hooked up the alternator and power steering pump and then ran the spark plug wires and hooked the coil up. The engine harness is in decent shape but the yellow start wire at the starter is broken and the oil pressure idiot light is all junked up and needs to be fixed. The transmission kickdown wiring is also missing. The harness will likely need to be replaced in the near future anyways as I'm sure after patching it will exhibit all sorts of fun little electrical gremlins that shut the car off in the middle of driving.

Now to spend some time under the car getting the transmission cooler lines run, the driveshaft installed, and the gear shifter hooked up. Then get the coolant hoses run and patch up the harness, then it should be ready to fire up and verify if it runs.

The spare manifolds I have both have cracks in them, so they're no good. I'm thinking this is the perfect time to put a set of HO manifolds on the car instead of spending money tracking down another set of logs.
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  #35  
Old 05-05-2020, 10:12 PM
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As for the difference in length between Catalina and the Bonneville/Grandville, here's what I've observed and learned from personal examples of each, cross-referenced with the 71 Assembly manual and the repair guide and parts interchange books for all 3 versions:

The GM B-bodies were required to have the same interior dimensions across all product lines, so the dimensions from the firewall to the rear quarter panels are the same- this was mandated by all cars having to use the same glass for windshield and doors. (this is referenced in another posting somewhere on the forum, apparently the window glass molds were prohibitively expensive to change, they were the single-most costly item to change between models- which is why the interior never changed dimensions even if exterior length did. External door skins may have changed, but the internal structure of the doors are always the same across the entire GM B-body line. I've not come across any reasoning for modifying the length to begin with, somewhere an accountant must have signed off on it, realize they were still changing significant parts of the body sheet-metal every year still to allow year-to-year model changes.

For Pontiacs B models, the rear quarters are also the same length, even thought they were changed slightly around the rear windows due to the different rear glass (as mentioned previously, the Grandville had it's roof line and rear glass sourced from the Cadillac D-body) with the taillight panel also changing between the Grandville and Bonneville/Catalina.

Forward of the firewall is where the changes were made; fenders were shorter on the Catalina; however the hood stayed the exact same; to accommodate this this the Catalina front header/nose panel was shortened and partially indented about 3 inches to allow the hood to sit closer to the headlights and bumper. -I think it also meant some modification of the bumper mounts, as well. I'll try to get a picture of what this looks like and post it.

I'm still amazed that Pontiac engineering designed it this way; it required new metal molds for stamping out 2 different L/R Catalina fenders, plus a new mold for the fiberglass header as well- all of which are barely noticeable and seemingly of little importance for the overall model design (the rear roof line and resulting change to the rear qtr panels were much more noticeable, as stated earlier to distinguish the Grandville as an entry closer to the Cadillac.


Last edited by drummond93; 05-05-2020 at 10:16 PM. Reason: update
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Old 05-05-2020, 11:28 PM
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That explains it very well, thanks!

The situation in 65-70 was exactly backwards. The interior panels (inner doors, door jams, roof, glass etc was common to all B cars from Pontiac, Chevy, Buick and olds (as opposed to C cars which were Cadillac as well as the Buick 225 and olds 98).

The way the made the extended B’s for 65-70 Pontiac was by lengthening the frame by 3” just before the rear axle and 3” (4” in 65-68) after the rear axle. All the extra length was in the trunk. The quarters were 6-7” longer, the outer half of the rear tubs were the same as the Catalina but the inner half of the rear tubs tubes are “canted” so they align with the Catalina body floor pan and trunk hinge structure. The trunk lid is also 6-7” longer than the Catalina version. Bumpers and tail panels dimensionally interchange other than decorative trim variations. Btw, this was basically a continuation of the same pattern since the first extended deck Star Cheif in 54.

Where you can see this best is comparing the way the frame follows upward the passenger floor pan at the rear axle hump as seen with a rear wheel removed. If you look at a 69 Impala the frame is just about touching the floor pan as it kicks up for the axle. On the Catalina the gap between the frame and floor there is 2” further apart. The exec-bonnie frame is another 3” further. Leaving about a 6” horizontal gap between the floor and frame.

In these long wheelbase cars the gap was big enough to be unsightly without skirts so executives have a clip on rubber filler piece so you can’t see through the lower car side to side. They didn’t bother on Bonnevilles since they came standard with fender skirts.

Another odd variance on B bodies in 65-70 is that Chevrolet B’s had the front axle located 1” closer to the O line (the vertical face of the cowl on the engine side) than on the BOP B bodies (Catalina-Bonneville plus LeSabre and 88). I wonder if the 71 Catalina continued this process or if the Catalina now had the same axle to O dimension as Chevy?

By the way given the success of the 69 GP and the 70 Monte Carlo (both which had their unique look from a wheelbase stretch between the front axle and O line) it’s not surprising that Pontiac decided to apply a bit of that magic to their New higher end 71 big cars. Also since the 65 Mustang the long hood short deck look had been king making those 65-70 long deck Bonnevilles look dated even when new. Look at the 68 A bodies compared to the 64-67’s, they chopped at least 6” off the rear and tacked a few inches to the front overhang for the same reason.

Perhaps the need for re-engineered 5 mph front bumpers and general cost cutting brought an end to the two wheelbase Pontiac B body in 73.

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My Break Away Squad
1969 Fbird (Base, 350 & Sprint Cvt’s - 400HO & TA Hardtops)
1969 LeMans (2dr & 4dr Hardtop and a Cvt)
1969 LeMans Safari 2 seat Wagon
1969 GTO (2 Cvt, 2 Hardtops & Judge Hardtop)
1969 Catalina (3 Cvt’s & a 2dr hardtop)
1969 Ventura 2 Seat Wagon
1969 Executive 4dr Sedan
1969 Bonnie Cvt
1969 Bonnie 3 Seat Wagon (2 of them)
1969 Bonnie Brougham (4dr Hardtop & Cvt)
1969 Grand Prix SJ (2 of them)
1969 2+2 2dr Hardtop (Canadian model)
  #37  
Old 05-06-2020, 09:16 AM
drummond93 drummond93 is offline
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Thanks for that insight on the earler 65-70 bodies, I can see where car design was changing to the long hood/ short trunk in that time period, so it seems they just adjusted the design to put the extra length in the front.

Also, I found a set of Fisher Body movies that have been digitized and uploaded to youtube, showing the construction of the body... it seems that the tooling to handled the entire body assembly was keyed to the dimensions of the main passenger compartment, that was probably also a consideration as to why that part of the car remained the same size while the front/ rear of the car could change.

The best video is titled "Fisher Body, The Body Builders"- this highlights the 1971 model car line for GM, following the design process starting in 1968, as digitized by PeriscopeFilms, at:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYgxgGlN8CM


There are other videos about Fisher Body, this next one seems to be the sequal to the 1st, about a decade later- from the 1980-82 time frame -cars highlighted include an early 80's Chevy Citation, Olds Delta 88, Buick LeSabre:
Title is: FISHER BODY GENERAL MOTORS AUTOMOBILE MANUFACTURE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAL5-B2ROkw

When watching these videos I was somewhat astounded (to my 21st century sensibilities) of just how much manual labor went into car production before the era of mass-robotics, and computer-controlled production- it was a bit surreal to see all the hand-sewn pieces being assembled into seat covers, interior upholstery, etc.. not to mention the multiple shots of engineers drafting on long drafting/ lofting tables.


Last edited by drummond93; 05-06-2020 at 09:22 AM.
  #38  
Old 05-06-2020, 02:35 PM
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Thanks for the link, neat video. Ironically that film was released right in the middle of Fisher Body's biggest debacle ever... the 70 F body fiasco that delayed production 6 months. apparently the only time in history that Fisher caused a model release delay. Maybe this movie was made to do damage control.

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My Break Away Squad
1969 Fbird (Base, 350 & Sprint Cvt’s - 400HO & TA Hardtops)
1969 LeMans (2dr & 4dr Hardtop and a Cvt)
1969 LeMans Safari 2 seat Wagon
1969 GTO (2 Cvt, 2 Hardtops & Judge Hardtop)
1969 Catalina (3 Cvt’s & a 2dr hardtop)
1969 Ventura 2 Seat Wagon
1969 Executive 4dr Sedan
1969 Bonnie Cvt
1969 Bonnie 3 Seat Wagon (2 of them)
1969 Bonnie Brougham (4dr Hardtop & Cvt)
1969 Grand Prix SJ (2 of them)
1969 2+2 2dr Hardtop (Canadian model)
  #39  
Old 05-08-2020, 01:37 PM
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All this researching of this generation of big cars made me think about which years I like best so here are my personal tastes. It primarily comes down to front ends since the interiors were pretty constant as were the sides. Mechanically it was downhill every year because of the smog - mpg Double barreled attack in those years. My favorite front end is 72, nice formal design while still looking like a Pontiac. 71 is next, pretty nifty in a different sort of way. Then I’d say it’s 75-76, a bit bland, sort of a 77 boxy nose on the old big rounded 71 body but it is tidy. Lastly the 73 and 74 in that order, Never liked the look, in fairness they were struggling with the new bumper laws and unfortunately the Pontiac sporty look was more difficult to adapt to the battering ram bumpers than say the more formal style themes like Buick, Olds or Cadillac had. However the 77 big Pontiac came out as one of the best looking of all the new downsized GM’s.

Which years do you guys prefer?

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My Break Away Squad
1969 Fbird (Base, 350 & Sprint Cvt’s - 400HO & TA Hardtops)
1969 LeMans (2dr & 4dr Hardtop and a Cvt)
1969 LeMans Safari 2 seat Wagon
1969 GTO (2 Cvt, 2 Hardtops & Judge Hardtop)
1969 Catalina (3 Cvt’s & a 2dr hardtop)
1969 Ventura 2 Seat Wagon
1969 Executive 4dr Sedan
1969 Bonnie Cvt
1969 Bonnie 3 Seat Wagon (2 of them)
1969 Bonnie Brougham (4dr Hardtop & Cvt)
1969 Grand Prix SJ (2 of them)
1969 2+2 2dr Hardtop (Canadian model)
  #40  
Old 05-08-2020, 01:55 PM
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I'm a big fan of the '72, followed by '71 and then '74 and '73. I don't care for the square headlight '75-76 cars (although you could get the round headlights on the Catalina still). Interior-wise I'm a huge fan of the '71-72 instrument cluster but hands down the nicest interiors are the '75-76 Brougham models with their cushy seats and soft arm rests. Those cars also tended to come with multiple options including delay wipers.

The only real drawback I've found for these cars is they tend to be a bit cumbersome to park if you aren't used to them and the fuel economy at +75MPH is a bit lousy - a problem an overdrive would likely solve as I managed to get 17MPG in my '74 Catalina wagon at 75MPH with 3.08 gears on the freeway. It's the start and stop part that gets them.

I do find that of the '77-81 big cars, Pontiac's offerings were the classiest and best looking, especially the Brougham seat cars (SO comfy). Shame about the demise of the 400 after 1978 though. If they'd kept the 350 through 1981 there would likely have been more fans of them. That generation is the most "modern" of the big cars to drive compared to cars today as they're easy to park and nimble enough to maneuver when needed, plus with their 2.41-2.56 rear ends they can do 75MPH with ease all day (once they get there).

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