#21  
Old 11-06-2019, 08:49 PM
Hank Hank is offline
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Default clearance problem

The trans mount i used is a GM one that i had in my cupboard for 30 years and is and was identical to the old one i took off the trans,,,, stock. Iv'e drove this car for 2 years with the 6 bangger in it and it goes down straight as a arrow. Also there is only one shim for front end alignment so i really find it hard to believe it has a frame sag. Just thought i would put it out on here to see if anyone else has had this problem. Iv'e did these swaps alot over the last 30 years and never had this mickey mouse problem. Thought i was missing something... I guess put shims under the frame perches which i'm against. Could it be the steering box from a 6 cyl. car? are the different from the V-8 cars as far as shaft lengths?

  #22  
Old 11-06-2019, 09:00 PM
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Are you sure that you have the "Taller" Engine frame mount on the Drivers side and the "Shorter" metal engine frame mount on the passenger side? They are different.
Where did your V-8 Frame Mounts come from?

Tom V. .

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  #23  
Old 11-06-2019, 09:20 PM
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The frame stands have different bolts patterns they cannot be mounted on the wrong side, those clever Pontiac engineers made it easy.

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  #24  
Old 11-06-2019, 10:03 PM
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Default clearance problem

As B-Man said you can't bolt them on wrong. And they are from a 64 LeMans.

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Old 11-06-2019, 10:05 PM
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Default clearance problem

The kicker is the motor is level from side to side and has the correct drop back towards the firewall. I'm using the factory trans

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Old 11-06-2019, 10:33 PM
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Interesting, then why is the Stock metal engine mount on the frame higher on the drivers side.

The engine should not be level, if I remember correctly, so that the oil can drain from the oil pan out the open pan plug hole properly when doing an oil change.

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Last edited by Tom Vaught; 11-06-2019 at 11:19 PM.
  #27  
Old 11-06-2019, 10:39 PM
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Default clearance problem

???? The motor is sitting in there spot on from left to right and has the correct drop from front to back which in turn lets the oil go to the oil pan sump

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Old 11-06-2019, 11:24 PM
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I will ask the question differently then.

Why is the drivers side metal mount higher vs the passenger side metal mount?
Why can't they be the same height if the bolt pattern to the frame is different.
They are different for a reason. Post up what it is.

Tom V.

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  #29  
Old 11-07-2019, 01:35 AM
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The engine should sit level from side to side.

The drain plug is in the center front on all oil pans until 1970 when the plug was moved to the side, and even then the engine was still mounted level in the frame.

I would say the reason for the difference in frame stand height has something to do with the crossmember not being symmetrical.

Here’s my ‘64 Tempest engine compartment showing the frame stands, judge for yourselves. By the way this car was also factory equipped with a six-banger, at one point I put a 455 in it.
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  #30  
Old 11-07-2019, 02:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich-Tripower View Post
The frame I used under my Chevelle wagon (same basic frame) had a small little Chevy small block all if its life before I got it. A Chevy small block weighs less than any GM 6 cylinder by the way. It had some frame sag which we addressed while the car was in the body shop. The guy also had a frame jig so he checked it out and made some minor adjustments so we'd have a strong platform for building the car. My point being, you can't SEE frame sag in and of itself but it sure does crop up with issues like yours or when you try to get an alignment. Why do you you think the aftermarket came out with offset cross shafts for those A-body upper control arms? To compensate for the sag almost all of them have.

Honestly, the best way to cure your problem is to visit a shop with a frame machine, have it measured and have the front tweaked a bit back into spec. It doesn't take much work and makes for a better platform overall. As it stands I'll bet that side of the car needs a huge pack of shims to get the alignment anywhere close, another sure sign of frame sag.

A ‘64 -‘65 Pontiac 215 six weighs in at about 440 pounds (same as Chevy 194/230/250 sixes). A Chevy small block V8 is about 550 pounds.

Chevy V8s are definitely heavier than Chevy sixes, look it up, the information is out there on the ‘net. Front springs for six cylinder cars are made for the lighter engine, put in a V8 and the front end will sit lower.

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  #31  
Old 11-07-2019, 07:41 AM
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Sorry about that Tom. My mistake.

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  #32  
Old 11-07-2019, 10:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b-man View Post
A ‘64 -‘65 Pontiac 215 six weighs in at about 440 pounds (same as Chevy 194/230/250 sixes). A Chevy small block V8 is about 550 pounds.

Chevy V8s are definitely heavier than Chevy sixes, look it up, the information is out there on the ‘net. Front springs for six cylinder cars are made for the lighter engine, put in a V8 and the front end will sit lower.
You are right, I mistakenly compared the small block to the older L6 from the 40s and 50s which weighed over 600 pounds! But, that doesn't change the fact that these a body frames sag up front, regardless of what engine they have had in them. Even at 440 pounds (plus all the accessories' weight, etc.) pounding on that frame cross member every time you hit a bump, pothole or whatever over 40-50 years.

  #33  
Old 11-07-2019, 11:45 AM
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The engine is supposed to sit level side to side, it however may not sit centered in the frame. Pontiacs are wider than most other GM engines causing steering shaft exhaust manifold interference if centered symmetrically in the chassis.

I worked on a 68 Firebird that someone had butchered the frame mounts in, with the proper mounts installed the engine was offset to the passenger side of the car by at least an inch. The first gen Firebirds are rear steer tie rods and that puts the steering box in an area that causes the minimal clearance with the exhaust manifolds. It also causes the engine to be off center in the chassis.

In my experience most Pontiac cars have the engine offset to the passengers side because of steering gear interference. Different chassis have more or less offset than others. I.E. a 69 GP has the engine setback in the chassis about 4 inches requiring no engine off set because of steering gear interference.

In this particular car there is a possibility that the frame horns could be swayed to the right/passenger side causing the steering box to be too close to the exhaust manifolds, even with the correct frame engine mounts installed. I'm not saying that this is definitely the problem, but is a possibility to cause the interference shown.

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  #34  
Old 11-07-2019, 12:21 PM
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My carpenters level (4 foot) when sitting above the waterneck on the front ends of the valve covers says the engine is not level but it is only off about a 1/4 of a bubble from being close to being level. So I guess I would agree that it is close to being level.

Tom V.

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  #35  
Old 11-07-2019, 06:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b-man View Post
A six isn’t that much lighter than some of the small V8s offered in the A and F cars (sb Chevy) so no matter what was mounted between the rails they all sag to some degree.
We found that out pulling the 6 out of a friend's 67 Acadian(Nova) to put in a SBC. Felt not a lot different.

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Old 11-22-2019, 05:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hank View Post
The trans mount i used is a GM one that i had in my cupboard for 30 years and is and was identical to the old one i took off the trans,,,, stock. Iv'e drove this car for 2 years with the 6 bangger in it and it goes down straight as a arrow. Also there is only one shim for front end alignment so i really find it hard to believe it has a frame sag. Just thought i would put it out on here to see if anyone else has had this problem. Iv'e did these swaps alot over the last 30 years and never had this mickey mouse problem. Thought i was missing something... I guess put shims under the frame perches which i'm against. Could it be the steering box from a 6 cyl. car? are the different from the V-8 cars as far as shaft lengths?
The easy way to spot a sagged front crossmember/frame on these cars is that they will typically only have one shim as you describe or no shim or shims on one or both sides in order to get the camber correct. The sign of a non-sagged frame is plenty of shims on both sides. As the frame settles, the mounts that the A-arm shafts bolt to move inward towards the engine, necessitating the need to remove shims to move the A-arm shafts outward to where they once were. You stating that you have only one shim in place is very indicative of a sagged frame.

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  #37  
Old 11-22-2019, 07:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geeteeohguy View Post
The easy way to spot a sagged front crossmember/frame on these cars is that they will typically only have one shim as you describe or no shim or shims on one or both sides in order to get the camber correct. The sign of a non-sagged frame is plenty of shims on both sides. As the frame settles, the mounts that the A-arm shafts bolt to move inward towards the engine, necessitating the need to remove shims to move the A-arm shafts outward to where they once were. You stating that you have only one shim in place is very indicative of a sagged frame.
You are correct, I had it exactly backwards in my earlier post.

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Old 11-26-2019, 12:25 PM
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I may be way off here, as I see a lot of more qualified people than I, have already responded, but it looks to me that the shaft coming out of your steering box is too long. (compared to mine)....maybe you have a manual steering box?

That would mean that your steering column is shorter, does that mean that 6cyl. cars and V8's had different length steering columns? and maybe manual steering columns were shorter than power steering columns??


Sorry to create more questions than answers, but if you could relocate that rag joint closer to the steering box, there would be plenty of room.

sorry I don't have any pics of mine

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Old 11-26-2019, 12:50 PM
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Steering columns are all the same length.

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  #40  
Old 11-30-2019, 10:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 389 View Post
I would try loosening and moving the steering wheel over to the left. Grinding the manifold down and shimming the motor mount..

The clearances on these cars are crude by todays standards.. They all need extra frame support under the radiator. They way they have the steering box hanging out there on one frame rail is a joke... SC&C sells the piece you need.. I'm putting one on my car during this winters tear down..
https://scandc.com/product/scc-heavy...evelle-gs-442/
I have other products I bought from Mark as he's very sharp on improving handling and offers some nice products.

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