#81  
Old 02-01-2020, 11:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skip Fix View Post
Yeah, John & J.B. put John's old '73 back on the track. Does anybody know if they left the '74 in race-ready condition, or did they transfer some parts off it onto the '73 ?

I'll see what I can find out.
Hey, if you have access, I have some question, you may be able to find answers to. Or, you may know some of the answers yourself.

(1) On John's Mission Garage site, there are pics & a video of a girl, driving a '74 T/A, on the track. Seemed to be her 1st passes, maybe. Anyhow, they seemed to indicate that the car was a Stocker on the Clegg racing team. Never heard anything else about her or the car. Would love to know all the details there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQhN...ature=youtu.be

(2) There is another pic of what appears to be the same car. It says the car was built by Forest Piedolla & Dan Reeves, and riven by Hunter Pierdolla. I know that Hunter has driven the car in some div 4 races, in recent years. So, is this the same car the girl in the video drove ?

At this race, Hunter was .991 under.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...UMMIT#indextop

(3) Right beside the pic of the car, there is a pic of an engine which has SD455 on the scoop, which is supposed to be the engine in that car. The car runs H/SA. So, does that car run an SD455 engine ?

http://missiongarage.com/photogaller...2012/photo.jpg

http://missiongarage.com/photogaller...012/photo2.jpg

(4) John has been long associated with the SD455 engine. Would be very interesting to know how many sets of SD455 heads he's had, and how many he still has today.
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  #82  
Old 02-02-2020, 05:37 AM
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How many of you guys have ever seen a '67 GTO big tire Super Stocker. Before I found this pic, I'd never seen one. Guessing there have been VERY few built.

It was raced out on the West coast by Jay Cason. Didn't run quick. But ran plenty quick to go rounds, unless it ran up on a same-class heads-up run.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r1998#indextop
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  #83  
Old 02-03-2020, 02:38 AM
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Default Sigh... they're the same car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ponyakr View Post
How many of you guys have ever seen a '67 GTO big tire Super Stocker. Before I found this pic, I'd never seen one. Guessing there have been VERY few built.

It was raced out on the West coast by Jay Cason. Didn't run quick. But ran plenty quick to go rounds, unless it ran up on a same-class heads-up run.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r1998#indextop
That's Pete McCarthy's 67. And yes, it's a REAL Ram Air GTO.
Note the license plate number in the photo you dug up.



Now look at the newer pic below. Read the license plate. Now look at the older pic again.
Stop over analyzing everything. Just how many SS/IA 67 GTOs do you think there were?


  #84  
Old 02-03-2020, 05:08 AM
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That's great. So, it's the same car, but with wheelie bars. Good info !

Jay Cason is listed as the driver.

What I'd like to know is why was he driving ? Did he have some sort of connection to the owner. Was he kin maybe ? An employee ? Did he lease the car, buy it, or just drive it for a short time ?

"...Stop over analyzing everything..."

If that's what you choose to call it, that's fine.

I could just say hey, there use to be a some Pontiac race cars. Some are still racing. Some are not. A few new ones have been built in recent years. Some have been sold & raced by others. Would that be simple enuff for you ? No offense meant. But your statement was definitely not meant to win friends & influence people.

I just like to dig up all the history of Pontiac Stockers, Super Stockers, & their drivers.

On most sites, especially the Class Racer site, when I mention a car, some of the old timers are quick to tell who raced the car before the guy I mentioned. MOST of the cars running now, have been raced by others, in the past. To me, that's interesting info. To most, I assume it's not. Different strokes.

I sent Jay a PM, along with a pic of the car, asking him for more info. No reply yet.

https://www.facebook.com/jay.cason


Last edited by ponyakr; 02-03-2020 at 05:27 AM.
  #85  
Old 02-03-2020, 06:59 AM
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Just found this. Says Bill Foder built the 400 engine that powered Phil Monteith's 3rd gen Bird to Peter Biondo's 1st SS championship, in 1996.

https://msu.edu/unit/msuaa/magazine/w97/foderw97.htm

Also says he was a teacher at John Glenn High School for 24 years, and was a SS champ himself.

And, Bill's son Billy Foder, now races the old Lee Bannister '72 Bird, in Stock.

I'm finding a lot of connections in the Pontiac drag racing world.

  #86  
Old 02-04-2020, 11:14 AM
gmeyer gmeyer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 242177P View Post
That's Pete McCarthy's 67. And yes, it's a REAL Ram Air GTO.
Note the license plate number in the photo you dug up.



Now look at the newer pic below. Read the license plate. Now look at the older pic again.
Stop over analyzing everything. Just how many SS/IA 67 GTOs do you think there were?

What a cool car!!!

  #87  
Old 02-04-2020, 11:18 AM
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Don't know if I've said enuff about this car or not. It's just one of my all-time favorite Pontiac SS cars. It ran so strong for so many years. Driven by Ken Shawver for many years, then by Monte Howard.

The 2006 US Nats is just one example of the car's performance. It qualified #4 @ 1.192 under, in the 128 car field.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2006#indextop

And it won the SS/KA class. It was the 4th year in a row the car won it's class !

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2003#indextop

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2004#indextop

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2005#indextop

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2006#indextop

It's a pretty good showing to qualify #4 & win your class at Indy. And it ran good at lots US Nats. Just guessing that not a lot of SS cars have won their class 4 years in a row. Jack Good is still racing it. No telling how many thousands of passes it has made, during it's long racing history. It has to be in the Hall of Fame, of Pontiac Super Stockers.
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Last edited by ponyakr; 02-04-2020 at 12:07 PM.
  #88  
Old 02-04-2020, 02:33 PM
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OK, this should be an easy one for some of you 455 guys.

Since I've always been a low budget racer, I'm always thinkin of ways you could build a car that could win, but do it as cheap as possible.

So, with that in mind, I'd like for some of you guys to help me figure if this might be a good way to build a Super Stocker, without spending a big fortune.

The engine I have in mind is the '73-'74 D-port 455. It's hp factor is only 310hp, in all SS classes.

In the 12lbs/hp classes you'd only have to run 11-teens, to run under your index.

So, the question is how to build the engine so that it will make enuff power to run 11-teens in a 12lbs per hp class.

12 x 310 = 3720 Car min weight is 3720 + 170lbs for a driver. Min total weight = 3890. So, we'll just say the car + driver will weigh 3900lbs total.

The engine must use 4X heads with a min chamber volume of 102.3cc.

Max bore is 4.233" Max stroke is 4.229" Max cubic inch is 476.1

Any cam/lifters OK. Any intake that will fit under the hood is OK. Must use a 750cfm Q-jet. Minor head porting OK. Wanna do as little as possible, for cost reasons, assuming the car owner can't port his own heads.

Any GM 3-speed trans. Trans Brake. Any stall converter. Any rear gear ratio. Big tires, narrowed rear & tubs OK. Ladder bars OK. 4-link too, I think.

Michael Brand & Adam Davis both ran high tens, in STOCK, with this engine, in '73 Birds. And they were limited to a flat tappet cam with a little over .400 lift, and a stock iron intake.

So, the problem is to make at least as much power as they did, with the advantage of being able to use Super Stock rules. Not trying for an all out build, using a .700+ lift solid roller, after market block, etc.

So, how would ya'll build the engine/car to run 11-teens. It sounds easy today. But the H-O guys set a SS/KA record with their '74 SD455 T/A, at only 11.31. So, you gotta run quicker than they did, and with D-port heads & a 750 carb.

  #89  
Old 02-04-2020, 03:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ponyakr View Post
OK, this should be an easy one for some of you 455 guys.

Since I've always been a low budget racer, I'm always thinkin of ways you could build a car that could win, but do it as cheap as possible.

So, with that in mind, I'd like for some of you guys to help me figure if this might be a good way to build a Super Stocker, without spending a big fortune.

The engine I have in mind is the '73-'74 D-port 455. It's hp factor is only 310hp, in all SS classes.

In the 12lbs/hp classes you'd only have to run 11-teens, to run under your index.

So, the question is how to build the engine so that it will make enuff power to run 11-teens in a 12lbs per hp class.

12 x 310 = 3720 Car min weight is 3720 + 170lbs for a driver. Min total weight = 3890. So, we'll just say the car + driver will weigh 3900lbs total.

The engine must use 4X heads with a min chamber volume of 102.3cc.

Max bore is 4.233" Max stroke is 4.229" Max cubic inch is 476.1

Any cam/lifters OK. Any intake that will fit under the hood is OK. Must use a 750cfm Q-jet. Minor head porting OK. Wanna do as little as possible, for cost reasons, assuming the car owner can't port his own heads.

Any GM 3-speed trans. Trans Brake. Any stall converter. Any rear gear ratio. Big tires, narrowed rear & tubs OK. Ladder bars OK. 4-link too, I think.

Michael Brand & Adam Davis both ran high tens, in STOCK, with this engine, in '73 Birds. And they were limited to a flat tappet cam with a little over .400 lift, and a stock iron intake.

So, the problem is to make at least as much power as they did, with the advantage of being able to use Super Stock rules. Not trying for an all out build, using a .700+ lift solid roller, after market block, etc.

So, how would ya'll build the engine/car to run 11-teens. It sounds easy today. But the H-O guys set a SS/KA record with their '74 SD455 T/A, at only 11.31. So, you gotta run quicker than they did, and with D-port heads & a 750 carb.
I don't have a rule book handy, but I believe weight includes driver.

When HO ran Super Stock the heads were basically stock. Call a head person and ask them how much for / to do a set of Pontiac Super Stock heads. That maybe all of your budget.

Stan

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  #90  
Old 02-04-2020, 04:09 PM
gmeyer gmeyer is offline
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Default Super heads

Super stock heads can run anywhere between 6000.00 to 11000.00 depending who you go to plus the intake. Cyl heads and the honing of the block can make or brake a whole comb. You can find cheaper or out dated used parts and run well but will have to dodge heads up races when all possible.
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Super Stock GT Firebird 4X 400 8.5 to comp. Q jet carb best 9:94 134 mph 3300 lbs

  #91  
Old 02-04-2020, 04:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmeyer View Post
Super stock heads can run anywhere between 6000.00 to 11000.00 depending who you go to plus the intake. Cyl heads and the honing of the block can make or brake a whole comb. You can find cheaper or out dated used parts and run well but will have to dodge heads up races when all possible.
Greg
Super Stock GT Firebird 4X 400 8.5 to comp. Q jet carb best 9:94 134 mph 3300 lbs
I have been looking at either converting my N/SS GTO over to SS or build another car. The price I got for the 68 #16 heads was $8K, The price for the E-NHRA legal heads was $6,500.

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  #92  
Old 02-04-2020, 05:49 PM
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Sounds not to bad the cast heads are always more this day in age having the exhaust brazed up and the cast iron is just time consuming. If i had a choice go with the e-head just because it repairable. I don't care who you have do them the cast iron head will leak water sooner or later.
greg

  #93  
Old 02-04-2020, 05:51 PM
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Yeah guys, I understand all that.

BUT as stated, we're not talkin about running a sec under the index. We're talkin about building a car that will just barely run under it's index. Think about it. It does not even have to run into the high tens. Real low 11's will work & give the car a chance to win every round that is not heads-up.

For those who have $100k to put into a car, building a sec under car is great. But, there are LOTS of cars running SS that did not cost near that much.

I've read here about quite a few guys who have their street cars running well into the 10's, with less than 470 cubes. And those cars don't have cams, gears, & converters that will run quickest at the track. And most don't have a trans brake, and 14x32 slicks, along with SS grade suspension front & rear.

With the rest of the parts correct, I don't know how much horsepower would be needed to run 11.00, with a 3900 lbs car. I'm guessing around 500. I know that some of you guys have all sort of formulas & programs designed to figure all this sorta stuff. How bouts some of you guys who have the know how, do some figuring on this & see what you come up with.

As mentioned, several guys have run under the SS index with their legal Stocker. quite a few legal Stockers are running high to mid 10's, with both 400 & 455 engines. So, if a 455 can't make enuff power to run 11-teens, without nearly $10, 000 worth of head work, it will really surprise me.

Greg mentioned the '74 400 engine. Lindy Lindholm is one of the guys who ran under the SS index with his legal '74 Formy.

This calculator says a 480hp engine will propel a 3900lb car to an 11.22 ET. I understand that calculators are approximations, & may not take into account converter stall/efficiency, trans brake, body areodynamics, etc.

https://www.motivegear.com/wp-conten...alculator.html

So, do you guys think this '73 455 engine can be built to make 480hp, without $5000 + of head work ? This is with light pistons, 760gr Eagle rods, & any cam.

I often think of Adam Strang running well into the 10's with his TRW piston 400 Stocker.

So, anybody wanna calculate about how much power can be made with this engine, without super high dollar head work. ?

  #94  
Old 02-04-2020, 06:26 PM
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You listed the min combustion chamber ccs but i don't see what the CR will be. I am going to guess 8.0:1.

Stan

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  #95  
Old 02-04-2020, 06:31 PM
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Quote:
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You listed the min combustion chamber ccs but i don't see what the CR will be. I am going to guess 8.0:1.

Stan
All the NHRA specs are listed on the Class Racer Info site. It says 9.66 CR. Don't know how they calculated that. Might be using max bore & stroke. It shows zero deck height, with .045 head gaskets.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...9&MAKE=Pontiac

Another thing those calculators probably don't take into account is the torque of an engine. The big torque of a 455 will help launch the car.

I don't have a clue how much money they spent on head work. But, as mentioned, Adam Davis & Michael Brand both ran high 10's with this engine, in legal '73 Bird Stockers. That's with an iron intake, heavy pistons, & a flat tappet cam, with .421/.425 lift. And no trans brake allowed. That brings up the question again. Aprox how much ET difference does a trans brake make ? The online numbers I get range from zero to .2. Average seems to be around a tenth.

Another thing that could help make this slow car a wee bit quicker is to use 9" tires. Everybody knows there are Stockers that are running 8's, 9's, & low 10's, with 9" tires. Bill Rink still runs small tires, & he has run in the mid 10's.

Right now I'm trying to think of 455 D-port iron head SS cars. None come to mind. In fact, the only SS iron head 455's I can think of are round port.


Last edited by ponyakr; 02-04-2020 at 07:29 PM.
  #96  
Old 02-04-2020, 08:19 PM
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Just happened to think. I have some better pics of that Ken Shawver '78 Bird, when Monte Howard was racing it.
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  #97  
Old 02-05-2020, 06:20 AM
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John Herslow told me his stocker went the fastest with a 4.56 gear. I tried that couldnt control the rpms at launch, 6000 came up quicker than now. I have his cam but he said that it would backfire through carb but would run ,afraid.never tried it or checked it.

  #98  
Old 02-05-2020, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ponyakr View Post
Yeah guys, I understand all that.

BUT as stated, we're not talkin about running a sec under the index. We're talkin about building a car that will just barely run under it's index. Think about it. It does not even have to run into the high tens. Real low 11's will work & give the car a chance to win every round that is not heads-up.

For those who have $100k to put into a car, building a sec under car is great. But, there are LOTS of cars running SS that did not cost near that much.

I've read here about quite a few guys who have their street cars running well into the 10's, with less than 470 cubes. And those cars don't have cams, gears, & converters that will run quickest at the track. And most don't have a trans brake, and 14x32 slicks, along with SS grade suspension front & rear.

With the rest of the parts correct, I don't know how much horsepower would be needed to run 11.00, with a 3900 lbs car. I'm guessing around 500. I know that some of you guys have all sort of formulas & programs designed to figure all this sorta stuff. How bouts some of you guys who have the know how, do some figuring on this & see what you come up with.

As mentioned, several guys have run under the SS index with their legal Stocker. quite a few legal Stockers are running high to mid 10's, with both 400 & 455 engines. So, if a 455 can't make enuff power to run 11-teens, without nearly $10, 000 worth of head work, it will really surprise me.

Greg mentioned the '74 400 engine. Lindy Lindholm is one of the guys who ran under the SS index with his legal '74 Formy.

This calculator says a 480hp engine will propel a 3900lb car to an 11.22 ET. I understand that calculators are approximations, & may not take into account converter stall/efficiency, trans brake, body areodynamics, etc.

https://www.motivegear.com/wp-conten...alculator.html

So, do you guys think this '73 455 engine can be built to make 480hp, without $5000 + of head work ? This is with light pistons, 760gr Eagle rods, & any cam.

I often think of Adam Strang running well into the 10's with his TRW piston 400 Stocker.

So, anybody wanna calculate about how much power can be made with this engine, without super high dollar head work. ?
That may work at Divisional events but you will not make the show at a National event. Check the Q sheet for a few National Events from last year at DRC,

Stan

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  #99  
Old 02-05-2020, 12:50 PM
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I don't have any pictures of a Pontiac Super Stock head. Not sure that anyone who has any will post them. Here are a couple example of a Hemi heads note that they are a number of years old.

Stan
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  #100  
Old 02-05-2020, 01:26 PM
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That may work at Divisional events but you will not make the show at a National event. Check the Q sheet for a few National Events from last year at DRC,

Stan
Every one qualifies, except at Indy

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