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Old 02-14-2020, 05:43 PM
LostHighway LostHighway is offline
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JD Machine just north of Dripping Springs is fantastic as well. He had no problem working directly with Butler on the specs for the rotating assembly and how it went with my existing pieces (heads, hyd lifters, etc).

http://jdmachineworks.com/Home_Page.php

JD Machine Works has been in business for a long time. I remember wanting to work there in HS. I graduated from Lake Travis. Im as local as local gets for Texas.

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Old 02-15-2020, 12:03 AM
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One was out of a 68 Firebird and the other a 69. I'm going from memory but I should be close. We used Eagle cast cranks and SIR 6.800 rods, Auto-Tec pistons based off an LS-1 forging. Bore size was around 3.905. Basic blueprinted short block and block prep.

Cylinder heads used original valve sizes (1.96/1.66ish). We converted the intakes to 30° seats, performed a good valve job, pocket ported the heads and gasket matched. The heads were converted to screw in studs, clearance for 1.65 rockers, exhaust cross overs filled and the combustion chambers heart shaped and opened up to around 88cc. We had to add the end exhaust bolt holes to the heads.

Both engines used stamped steel 1.65 rockers and cams around 220 on the intake and 230 on the exhaust. One was a Lunati Voodoo grind and the other was one of our custom nitrated HFT. The 68 used factory manifolds with some work performed to improve flow, a Q-jet and an Edelbrock Performer painted engine color. The other used a late design Edelbrock P4B, with a small Holley and headers.

Both engines worked well with the stock torque converters and 3.5'ish rear gears. If we dyno'd them I'm sure they'd be around 400-430ish HP.
I had been wondering how close the connecting rod beams were to the bottom of the cylinder walls, when the crank is between TDC and BDC??? May not be close, just wondering...

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  #63  
Old 02-15-2020, 06:15 AM
Dragncar Dragncar is offline
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ponyakr no one is here to imply you are DUMB.

I doubt very much there are many who have put a 4.25-inch crank in a 350 block.


.
Me too. Ace at PPR was doing 4" strokes with 350 blocks, had good pistons made and all that. Good results.
4.25 in a 350 block, I would not waste my time.

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Old 02-15-2020, 02:35 PM
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Me too. Ace at PPR was doing 4" strokes with 350 blocks, had good pistons made and all that. Good results.
4.25 in a 350 block, I would not waste my time.
What is wrong with a 4.25 stroke in a 350?

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Old 02-15-2020, 03:22 PM
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I love reading about guys building engines that make them happy and not building them to make someone else happy!

I find all the hate towards the P35O amazing. I get it if he was wanting to build a competitive race engine... But not everyone is... so to base advice on that is not really helpful to anyone. Advice should be based on the intention of the question and along the lines of what the person is trying to accomplish. sure everyone has an uncles best friends mothers grandpa who told stories of how ****ty the P350 is... But in reality, those rumors are just not accurate. Sure there are limitations to building a smaller engine... but once those are considered, and the builder is ok to build within those limitations, advice should be geared towards helping that project succeed... not towards belittling the build.

The stroking option was not available when I rebuilt my P350 back in 1997. I was stationed in Aviano Italy and the only Pontiac block in the country was my P350. I had no other options. It needed a rebuild so I bored it out .040, added 4-bolt mains (intended to run boost one day but never did) shoe horned a set of EDL Performer RPM round Port Heads with 2.11/1.66 valves, added MSD distributor, with 6AL topped off with an Performer RPM intake and and an EDL 650 Carb. It ran STRONG and was faster than most cars on the road at that time. I have had it over 155MPH on the Autostrada and it pulled hard the entire way only stopping when I let off the gas. (FYI high speeds are no good for conv. tops)

When I returned to the states I took the car to a local speed shop where they tuned the carb and got the engine running like never before. Took the car to the local 1320 and my NA P350 propelled my 69 Firebird Conv peg leg (one wheel wonder) down the track at 13.5 @ 108MPH <--- Trap speed indicates mid to low 12 sec capability with the addition of a Posi rear....

Point being, it was worth every penny and I have ZERO regrets for doing it! And I also have no doubt in my mind that adding a stroker crank would best my results which where more than outstanding.

My vote is to STROKE IT and dont look back! It will make more power than you can reasonably use on the street. If you need more power, add 10lbs of boost!

Also, if you ever want to build a 400 or 455... all those go fast parts will likely transfer right over to the new project. I repurposed those EDL heads from my P350 and they will now be going on my 496 stroker... I did have them cnc'ed to flow 340cfms with 2.19/1.77 however having them allowed me to spend money on improving them over buying a new set.... Dont let the haters slow you down!

SPEED SAFE, AIR RAM

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Last edited by AIR RAM; 02-15-2020 at 03:31 PM.
  #66  
Old 02-16-2020, 01:00 AM
PontiacJim1959 PontiacJim1959 is offline
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I don't get you guys. LostHighway is looking for engine build advice and has stated his reasons because he wants to keep his numbers matching car numbers matching, but wants to get a little sneaky and put some surprise power into a rather stock looking engine. But what he seems to have gotten is a lot of flak and little support but for a few members.

If you can't stand behind LostHighway's choice and rather sit behind your computer screen razzing him, then hit the power button and shut down your screen.

Building a 350, or stroking it, is a great alternative. Not every build has to be a 400, 455, or combo there of. I suspect it is because most have not had a 350CI that'll run. In my youth, 45 years ago, had a 1967 Firebird with a 350CI that was said to have some head work. Don't know what as all I liked was the power. Had a factory 3-speed and what ever gearing. The car flat out flew, no problem smoking tires and catching rubber in a hard 1-2 shift, and I would spin it 6,000 RPM's quite often. Street raced a few cars and it did pretty good and was a blast. It was the car that I cut my teeth on that led to a number of GTO's that I would own.

The 350 may not be as popular, or parts as readily available, but like any Pontiac engine, it can be built to perform. Every Pontiac build doesn't have to be 400-500HP and 500-580 ft lbs of torque which seems what everyone wants.

So rather than throw out opinions that are meaningless to the original question, how about helping LostHighway put together a smokin' hot Pontiac 350 build combination that'll work and have any street challengers seeing his taillights?

  #67  
Old 02-16-2020, 02:07 AM
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Originally Posted by PontiacJim1959 View Post
...So rather than throw out opinions that are meaningless to the original question, how about helping LostHighway put together a smokin' hot Pontiac 350 build combination that'll work and have any street challengers seeing his taillights?
Perhaps some of us have gone this road and are simply noting it to Lost Highway?

As stated above, a 4" stroke would make far more sense here - more would simply be more reciprocating stress and diminishing return due to lack of valve area. AFAIK, only one factory Pontiac mill was undersquare, the 326 - I wonder why?

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Old 02-16-2020, 09:34 AM
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I am curious were were exactly, or what rpm would a 4” stoke shine over a 4.25” in a 350??? At 2k? How about 4K? Maybe 6k????

Won’t it cost a bit more to do a 4” cast crank versus a 4.25” cast. Forged it is probably the same difference, but IRC the eagle cast 4.25” crank is one of the cheapest options out there. Versus a 4” cast RPM, do they even make those yet?

I do not recall any issues with the 350 stock car engine we did using big valve d ports. Solid roller cam engine that turned it 6k+, and ran with the pack. It had more cam in it than the 455s we did, but there were place on the track you would have thought it was a 455.

In a street engine, JMHO...4.25 stroke creates a good mix of piston speed and tq to a street engine.


Last edited by Jay S; 02-16-2020 at 09:36 AM. Reason: Edit
  #69  
Old 02-16-2020, 09:49 AM
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Well my only comment was not many do it to a 350. Also I might of added a suggestion to consider saving the block.... years ago my numbers matching '70 400 block that I stroked ended up with cracked mains after hard use.




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Old 02-16-2020, 10:04 AM
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Wallace racing Calculator suggest a P350 / 409 build would be capable of 454HP...
http://www.wallaceracing.com/calc-hp-bore-stroke.php

If I where building a P350 today I would go one of two ways.

1) NA - I would go with your NA plan above. It is easily 450+hp capable - 4.25 stroke, 3.19 10:1cr forged pistons. I would aim to build the rotational assembly as light weight as possible right from the start. I would build it to run in the 6000-6500RPM range and port the heads accordingly... This set up would just be a sleeper and would have more than enough to take on even some non built 400-455 engines. Wallace racing calculator suggest you would need 255cfms to reach that goal.
http://www.wallaceracing.com/flow-rpm.php

2) Boosted - I have wanted to build a boosted 350 for a long time. I would run a forged 3.75 stroke crank, 9:1cr 3.91 bore, good flowing heads, Solid Roller and add 15-20lbs boost. It would be in the 600+HP range on pump gas.

Again, I would spend my money at the machine shop with weight loss and head flow at the top of the list. This would remove stress and increase longevity while spinning in the 6000-6500rpm range.

The cost of a 4.25" stroke is not much more than a 4.0" stroke and would bring it up over 400ci. With a heads ported to feed that engine and properly selected Hyd Roller cam, a 350/409 can easily make 450+ daily driving, pump gas hp.

The 350 gets a bad rap mainly because for Pontiac, one size fit all... meaning they are all the same external dimensions. They all fit the same in all engine bays... and all the accessories fit from one block to the next. The cost of rebuilding ANY Pontiac engine is the same from 326-455... So it became common practice to go big or go home... this meant that anything under 400ci was wasted money/effort in the Pontiac community. But if 450HP is possible from a 350.... how is that wasted effort? That's healthy by any standard and more than most street driven vehicles have on the road at any given time.

I'm a fan! If you do build it, I hope you are able to visit the track or dyno at least once and post the results. Good luck with your project.

SPEED SAFE, NICK

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  #71  
Old 02-16-2020, 10:19 AM
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... and have any street challengers seeing his taillights?
So how much traction are we talking about? We could always point
him towards R2 compounds and ignition boxes with slew control.

  #72  
Old 02-16-2020, 12:27 PM
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Here is a few more things to add to this post that might channel the conversation towards a reasonable build.

Why not look back to the past? Check out the March 1969 edition of Super Stock and Drag Illustrate. The story? Royal Pontiac's F/S 350 HO Super Stock Firebird. Hmmm. 12.59 @ 110.29 on a cold day. A 350 is not worth building?

Again, Super Stock, where the compression was 10.5, the cam a factory Ram Air with 288/302 duration, 4.14" lift. Factory cast crank, rods, and replacement forged pistons. 4-bolt main caps were added. Of course, the engine was blueprinted. Weight of the car was 3350 pounds where the light weight of the Firebird makes a difference as does 4.33 gearing.

Does anyone here think 12.59 out of a basically stock 350HO is not impressive?

I have to preference this by saying I have no expereince in building up a 350 Pontiac. I myself do have 3 of them and hang on to them as a possible means to build a healthy 350 at some point.

My concern here would be the mention of the 1975 and up blocks being weaker like the 400 later blocks. Never heard this, but never worked with these later blocks. If true, then I would not use a stroker crank.

I would add ARP main cap studs to whatever stroke I selected and wouldn't go with 4-bolt main caps.

Purchasing the bottom end parts individually usually costs more than buying a kit. Keep in mind shipping cost when you piece it together, but it is an option. The Butler 4.25" stroker kit seems to be the best price/option and you are ready to roll if you go that route.

Your head and cam choices will be important, so you will be spending more $$, or the stroker route will be for nothing as the engine runs out of air and RPM. The engine needs to breathe so you will want to invest in prepping the iron heads you have to include some port/bowl work to get flow up above the stock numbers - so if you don't have a machine shop/engine builder who can do this correctly, then you may want to send them out. You can also buy a set ready to go as most of the big name Pontiac builders offer these.

Keep in mind that you probably have the 6x-4 heads, 93.5 cc's and 2.11/1.66 valves. Compression shows to be 7.6 on the 1975 350. Not good at all for performance. Playing with the Wallace Compression Calculator, milling the heads to get 90cc chambers, getting a zero deck clearance, and .039" head gaskets, I get 7.87. Going to a 4.25 stroke gets you 8.79. Both not the best at all. You want to shoot for 9.0 compression in my opinion, but that means about a 75 cc chamber with a zero deck height or any of the Pontiac high performance heads with 72 cc's and the typical factory deck height of .015" down in the hole. But the 8.79/stroker combo is workable using a tighter 110 LSA selected cam and building cylinder pressure.

You can obviously increase compression with smaller chamber heads, but I am taking into consideration that you want to keep all your original engine parts to include your heads.

So let's begin with that and see where it takes the forum members.

What I don't think has been mentioned, is there a budget that needs to be applied to this build?

  #73  
Old 02-16-2020, 07:03 PM
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"... Royal Pontiac's F/S 350 HO Super Stock Firebird. Hmmm. 12.59 @ 110.29 on a cold day. A 350 is not worth building?..."


Jim, just thought I'd give you a heads-up. Many times when I've mentioned anything about a Stocker, some of the guys are QUICK to say, that's an all out race car. Does not apply to a street car, in the street section here.

So, you may wanna keep this in mind, when posting on the street section here.

Just a word of warning, which might save you from catching flack from some here.

Some of these guys are sometimes unmerciful, & quick to contradict most anything they don't agree with.

And they don't like it when someone's post gives the appearance that the poster might think he knows more than others about the subject under discussion.

Proceed with caution, at your own risk.

PS: I love racing, especially Stocker racing. So, I won't complain if you wanna use Stocker engines for comparison. I even mentioned the 350HO engine that came in the '69 Tempest I bought. Made 434 dyno hp. Ran mid 12's, without any serious tuning. Adam Strang ran 10's with his '68 350HO Stocker, just last year. But, these were high compression engines, with a lot of cam duration. So, a low CR 350 block street stroker, would be quite different.

  #74  
Old 02-17-2020, 04:28 AM
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I would love to watch a full on 4.25" stroke 350 block build. I love being "different" and to heck with whether it's the most cost effective solution. Do it to do it, if you want to. It's your money.

But that's the biggest catch that people are stressing. No one "hates" the 350. Hate is a mighty strong word. It's just that for the same money spent you get more power out of a different block. The same 4.25" stroke crank and good flowing heads on a 400 block could easily make 100 more horsepower for the same money spent. So no "hate" just an acknowledgement of the reality of the situation.

If this is what LostHighway wants to do, and it WOULD be a total sleeper (which is what I love about it) then I say go for it, and please post all the details here so we can see how it goes.

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  #75  
Old 02-17-2020, 08:27 AM
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X2 on Will’s comments. Might be more of these out of square engines around if someone documented their results. I recall Jim Butler telling me they had even done some 326 stokers, but I do not recall which crank he said they used. It is difficult finding a modern version of a forged piston much less than $550 these days. A $700 custom set for doing it how you want in perspective of what the entire project costs is a small percentage. Really that and a little clearence game on the block are the only $ difference from it’s big brothers.
And if you find you have a weak block PM me. I have been working on solutions for that. Here is one of the earlier solutions I did.
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  #76  
Old 02-17-2020, 12:00 PM
hurryinhoosier62 hurryinhoosier62 is offline
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Originally Posted by Will View Post
I would love to watch a full on 4.25" stroke 350 block build. I love being "different" and to heck with whether it's the most cost effective solution. Do it to do it, if you want to. It's your money.

But that's the biggest catch that people are stressing. No one "hates" the 350. Hate is a mighty strong word. It's just that for the same money spent you get more power out of a different block. The same 4.25" stroke crank and good flowing heads on a 400 block could easily make 100 more horsepower for the same money spent. So no "hate" just an acknowledgement of the reality of the situation.

If this is what LostHighway wants to do, and it WOULD be a total sleeper (which is what I love about it) then I say go for it, and please post all the details here so we can see how it goes.
Will, we are discussing a STREET car. Ever seen what 500+hp does to a unibody WITHOUT installing subframe connectors, a partial roll cage and other gusseting? You guys are missing the point: the OP has a original car and wants to keep it that way with a bit more power. He doesn’t want a fire breathing, tire shredding, frame twisting monster.

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Old 02-17-2020, 12:50 PM
Steve C. Steve C. is offline
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Sub-Frame Connectors



.

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  #78  
Old 02-17-2020, 03:53 PM
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Sub-Frame Connectors



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  #79  
Old 02-17-2020, 04:59 PM
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I had to look up the word... not intended as such.

Just a easy solution and not expensive. Helps even if not a high HP application.

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'70 TA / 505 cid / same engine but revised ( previous best 10.63 at 127.05 )
Old information here:
http://www.hotrod.com/articles/0712p...tiac-trans-am/

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5.14 at 140 mph (1/8 mile) , true 10.5 tire, stock type suspension
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDoJnIP3HgE
  #80  
Old 02-18-2020, 08:00 PM
Will Will is offline
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Originally Posted by hurryinhoosier62 View Post
Will, we are discussing a STREET car. Ever seen what 500+hp does to a unibody WITHOUT installing subframe connectors, a partial roll cage and other gusseting? You guys are missing the point: the OP has a original car and wants to keep it that way with a bit more power. He doesn’t want a fire breathing, tire shredding, frame twisting monster.
What point am I missing?

OP wants to build an unusual engine combo for his own reasons. I fully support those reasons and hope he does it.

People telling him not to do it are the ones talking about how much more power he can make. This is the first mention of chassis considerations I've seen in this discussion and while a valid concern seems to be somewhat outside the scope here.

If he builds what he's proposing and ends up with a 400-450 HP combo that makes a boatload of torque I doubt that's going to endanger his otherwise stock chassis while driven on the street with street tires.

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