#1  
Old 01-24-2021, 03:58 AM
GILLIGAN GILLIGAN is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 158
Default 200r4 vs th400 1)weights 2)parasitic hp

hello !
1)with converter weight ?
factory-ish stalls
2)parasitic loss hp ?
factory-ish stalls

just a baseline before i pull trigger on one
thank yall
richard

  #2  
Old 01-24-2021, 10:18 AM
ErikW's Avatar
ErikW ErikW is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: White Plains, MD USA
Posts: 1,378
Default

Why?

__________________
1964 GTO
501, Edelbrock Heads NA, 3460 lbs.
9.76 @ 137mph
1971 Trans Am Lucy Blue, 11.56 @ 115
1966 LeMans. 462, SD prepped Kaufman D ports. 11.90 @ 112
1976 Trans Am twin turbo 462, SD Edelbrock heads 8.50@159
2009 G8 GT
  #3  
Old 01-24-2021, 10:32 AM
Chief of the 60's Chief of the 60's is offline
Suspended
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: On the Rez
Posts: 3,233
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ErikW View Post
Why?
x2

But if you figure 2 - 3 200's vs. 1 Turbo 400 that will last... Obviously the Turbo 400 will have less weight.

  #4  
Old 01-24-2021, 11:24 AM
Steve C. Steve C. is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Liberty Hill, Tx. (Austin)
Posts: 10,385
Default

To the OP.......here is a article that will interest you.

Overdrive Swap / 200-4R Overdrive in place of a Turbo 400

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/ccrp...smission-swap/


As you probably are aware depending on the power/torque level of your situation the 200-4R in stock form can be a hand grenade. That said, many have found and fixed all the weak points in this trans.
And they can and do work fine.
I personally agree with using a nonlockup torque converter for performance applications based on personal experience.
And the obvious, building a strong 200-4R does not come cheap.

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/ccrp...mission-build/


.

.
.

__________________
'70 TA / 505 cid / same engine but revised ( previous best 10.63 at 127.05 )
Old information here:
http://www.hotrod.com/articles/0712p...tiac-trans-am/

Sponsor of the world's fastest Pontiac powered Ford Fairmont (engine)
5.14 at 140 mph (1/8 mile) , true 10.5 tire, stock type suspension
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDoJnIP3HgE

Last edited by Steve C.; 01-24-2021 at 11:30 AM.
  #5  
Old 01-24-2021, 11:36 PM
GILLIGAN GILLIGAN is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 158
Default thank you

Quote:
Originally Posted by ErikW View Post
Why?
1) weight - less hp to pull
2) parasitic loss - less hp to turn

  #6  
Old 01-24-2021, 11:37 PM
GILLIGAN GILLIGAN is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 158
Default thank you

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chief of the 60's View Post
x2

But if you figure 2 - 3 200's vs. 1 Turbo 400 that will last... Obviously the Turbo 400 will have less weight.
funny !

  #7  
Old 01-24-2021, 11:43 PM
GILLIGAN GILLIGAN is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 158
Default thank you

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve C. View Post
To the OP.......here is a article that will interest you.

Overdrive Swap / 200-4R Overdrive in place of a Turbo 400

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/ccrp...smission-swap/


As you probably are aware depending on the power/torque level of your situation the 200-4R in stock form can be a hand grenade. That said, many have found and fixed all the weak points in this trans.
And they can and do work fine.
I personally agree with using a nonlockup torque converter for performance applications based on personal experience.
And the obvious, building a strong 200-4R does not come cheap.

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/ccrp...mission-build/



.
.
nice links
will talk to art

  #8  
Old 01-25-2021, 12:07 AM
GILLIGAN GILLIGAN is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 158
Smile research

answered my own question

weight / same
factoryish converters

parasitic loss
20 hp less to turn 200r4
factoryish converters

with non lock-up 200r4
15lb lighter than stock converter
another nice reduction in hp loss

chippin away at it !

  #9  
Old 01-25-2021, 12:11 AM
tom s tom s is online now
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: long beach ca usa
Posts: 18,764
Default

Don’t buy from Art Carr!Call me!Tom

  #10  
Old 01-25-2021, 12:41 AM
GILLIGAN GILLIGAN is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 158
Default thank you

Quote:
Originally Posted by tom s View Post
Don’t buy from Art Carr!Call me!Tom
will do friend

  #11  
Old 01-25-2021, 09:43 AM
Chief of the 60's Chief of the 60's is offline
Suspended
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: On the Rez
Posts: 3,233
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tom s View Post
Don’t buy from Art Carr!Call me!Tom
LOL!

C'mon Tom... Really? Don't deal with a guy that has been in the game a lot longer than 99% of the people on this forum and 95% of the builders in the field? LOL!


  #12  
Old 01-25-2021, 11:31 AM
Sirrotica's Avatar
Sirrotica Sirrotica is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Catawba Ohio
Posts: 7,190
Default

FWIW, comparing HD transmissions (T400 and 4L80E) vs light duty transmissions, and parasitic loss from Jake, of Jakes Performance. He specializes in T400s and 4L80Es which are pretty much identical internally as far as direct internal parts interchangeability. He states that the 2 HD transmissions only rob about .05 seconds over the lighter duty in a 10 second car, below that ET the loss is even less. This quote is taken from his frequently asked questions concerning parasitic loss. Of course either of the HD transmissions weigh more, because of the mass involved in making them strong in the original design.


Quote:
It is heavier, has more rotating mass, more clutch drag, and on the surface would seem to “eat” HP. The biggest loss would seem to come from the heavier rotating mass. However what is widely misunderstood is that yes it’s heavier, but that alone doesn’t cause more power loss. Remember an object in motion tends to stay in motion unless acted upon by another force. So unless there is more friction involved, a heavier rotating mass doesn’t take any more HP to maintain the same speed as a much lighter mass. It DOES take more power to accelerate or decelerate the heavier mass. So what this means to the average enthusiast is the faster your car, the more power the transmission will consume. This applies to all transmissions.

Power loss through the transmission will increase the faster you accelerate it. Our testing has shown that you will not see any significant power loss in a 11, 12 or 13 second combination. They simply aren’t accelerating fast enough that the rotating mass really comes into play. As you get into the low 10 second ¼ mile times, you may start to see some differences between a lightweight transmission and a heavier one. The thing to remember is, typically the lighter duty transmissions become a maintenance item at these power levels. More frequent rebuilds and failures. So for a small loss of power often equating to less than .05 second in Elapsed Time in the ¼ mile, you gain reliability. Unless you are racing for a record attempt where hundredths of a second are crucial, reliability is usually a more important factor.
Jake was one of the top 200 4R builders in the country before switching his business model to the T 400 and 4L80Es, so I would believe he fully knows very well how much ET loss there would be in the lighter duty transmissions, compared to the heavier duty ones.

__________________
Brad Yost
1973 T/A (SOLD)
2005 GTO
1984 Grand Prix

100% Pontiacs in my driveway!!! What's in your driveway?

If you don't take some of the RACETRACK home with you, Ya got cheated

The Following User Says Thank You to Sirrotica For This Useful Post:
  #13  
Old 01-25-2021, 11:47 AM
242177P's Avatar
242177P 242177P is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 1,709
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chief of the 60's View Post
LOL!

C'mon Tom... Really? Don't deal with a guy that has ...
That is not what he said. First, there are TWO Art Carrs. Second, the real Art Carr wasn't too bright, selling his name and all. Third, CK and Jake are at the top now. I get it, you really like Art Carr. He built you a billet everything 700R4. But the whole "dyno tested to 900 hp" rhetoric is something a circusmaster might hawk.

  #14  
Old 01-25-2021, 12:00 PM
242177P's Avatar
242177P 242177P is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 1,709
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sirrotica View Post
Jake was one of the top 200 4R builders in the country before switching his business model to the T 400 and 4L80Es, so ...
He said that has to do with core availability. In business, you go where the demand is. If things ever slow down for him, I expect he'd build another 200-4R, IF you supply a good core.

  #15  
Old 01-25-2021, 12:10 PM
Sirrotica's Avatar
Sirrotica Sirrotica is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Catawba Ohio
Posts: 7,190
Default

And I do have a good 200 4R core, but just as Jake says, the reliability is the driving factor, especially on a street, or a street and strip car. So unless you're going for a record, which I'm not, I'll be using a 4L80E, in my own car, anyone else can spend their money as they see fit on their cars.....

__________________
Brad Yost
1973 T/A (SOLD)
2005 GTO
1984 Grand Prix

100% Pontiacs in my driveway!!! What's in your driveway?

If you don't take some of the RACETRACK home with you, Ya got cheated

  #16  
Old 01-25-2021, 12:26 PM
242177P's Avatar
242177P 242177P is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 1,709
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sirrotica View Post
And I do have a good 200 4R core, but just as Jake says, the reliability is the driving factor, especially on a street, or a street and strip car. So unless you're going for a record, which I'm not, I'll be using a 4L80E, in my own car, anyone else can spend their money as they see fit on their cars.....
And the 480LE (always wanted to type that) can handle stupid levels of power.

  #17  
Old 01-25-2021, 12:28 PM
Stuart's Avatar
Stuart Stuart is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 7,938
Default

It appears the OP has had his questions answered, so I'll close it before this goes the way of every other 200 R4 discussion.

Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:10 AM.

 

About Us

The PY Online Forums is the largest online gathering of Pontiac enthusiasts anywhere in the world. Founded in 1991, it was also the first online forum for people to gather and talk about their Pontiacs. Since then, it has become the mecca of Pontiac technical data and knowledge that no other place can surpass.

 




Copyright © 2017