[lintmann]

Hey guys I'd like to hear your thoughts on something. My 65 GTO was built in the second week of May in Fremont. I have a chance to pick up an engine that is cast the second week of March. Is this two month spread too early or would it be considered typical for a factory date range? Just curious if I should try and get it or if I should keep looking for something cast in April...
Thanks

[tripower]

My 4th week of November built car has a October 21st cast block. So about 4 weeks from casting in Michigan to installation at the KC plant. Used to own a 1st week May Pontiac assembled car that had last week April/1st week May castings. Don’t think these blocks sat around gathering dust anywhere. Sure there is variance but about 4 to 6 weeks might be a good estimate. Best to find someone with a Fremont built car with those numbers.

[Chief of the 60's]

Originally Posted by lintmann

Hey guys I'd like to hear your thoughts on something. My 65 GTO was built in the second week of May in Fremont. I have a chance to pick up an engine that is cast the second week of March. Is this two month spread too early or would it be considered typical for a factory date range? Just curious if I should try and get it or if I should keep looking for something cast in April...
Thanks

Don't worry about it, just build it. Date codes are for unicorns.

I had an all original 40,000 mile '65 built in November '64, engine was October '64 with early '64 plug wires. Date codes are for plastic chevy people.

[60sstuff]

Originally Posted by lintmann

Hey guys I'd like to hear your thoughts on something. My 65 GTO was built in the second week of May in Fremont. I have a chance to pick up an engine that is cast the second week of March. Is this two month spread too early or would it be considered typical for a factory date range? Just curious if I should try and get it or if I should keep looking for something cast in April...
Thanks

lintmann,

A couple of examples.

It sounds like you are trying to make your classic automobile as “correct” as possible.
Correct equates to desirability and value these days with anything. Good for you!

I do think that gap of around two months in your case is to much. However if that 65 motor is reasonably priced I would snag it anyway.

The GTO’s in my signature are as follows,

1965 - Baltimore Built, First week of Nov. 64. Engine block, Sept. 14, 1964.
Important note, GM had a nation wide strike for about a month (Sept. 25 through Oct. 25).
I assume this strike interfered with my 65 Build. Take away that month of stoppage and my gap would be around 3 weeks.

1966 - Fremont Built, Second week of Jan. 66. Engine block, Dec. 29, 1965.
Around 2 weeks.

Yes, I agree that the engines were on the move quickly.

Chris.

[tripower]

Originally Posted by Chief of the 60's

Don't worry about it, just build it. Date codes are for unicorns.

I had an all original 40,000 mile '65 built in November '64, engine was October '64 with early '64 plug wires. Date codes are for plastic chevy people.

Another person who has problems with how others restore their cars.

[lintmann]

Thanks guys, I was thinking two months might be pushing it too but I just wanted to hear some other opinions on it to have a consensus. I'll keep looking unless someone with a Fremont car chimes in with different numbers.

tripower, please don't let ignorant comments like the 3rd post get to you. You're right in that he has problems, either he can't comprehend my question or for some reason believes I'd be interested in his unrelated opinion. Regardless, people's comments like that aren't worth responding to in person or on a forum but I do appreciate your input so thanks again.

[Tom Vaught]

If you are a GTO Salesman, get the dates perfect.
One less question asked by the "Numbers People" who might want to buy the car the GTO Salesman is selling.

If you are a GTO Owner and are keeping the car FOR YOU and the engine is a good deal and will give YOU (the car owner) good service for several years, buy the engine and install it.

I personally am not a Numbers Guy but I do enjoy reading the GTO History like the Nationwide Strike Info.

Tom V.

[John V.]

I'm a numbers guy, not because I place great value in them but because I am fascinated by them.

I don't have any special insight for '65 but I have an extensive log of '64 engines by Engine Code, block cast date, Engine Unit No., and where the engine could be determined to be original, the Time Built code, Car Model, and Final Assembly Plant.

As my log shows, most '64 blocks moved pretty quickly from foundry casting to engine plant assembly, to final plant, and then installation into a particular build.

It is pretty easy for me to make a pretty close estimate of a block cast date from the '64 EUN in most cases. I have uncovered anomalies but they are exceedingly rare.

I can also generally ferret out obvious restamps with the data I have.

As to the "lead" time between the block cast date and installation in a build, the norm is pretty short.

But again there are exceptions.

The longest lead time that I have logged for '64 was for a 4 bbl 326 HO optioned Lemans built at Fremont.

For '64, the Fremont PHS records identify the original EUN.

This particular engine was assembled in March as made obvious by the EUN, the block cast date was mid March but the car it was installed in was built at Fremont in very late May, approximately 9-10 weeks after the engine was assembled and 10 weeks after the block was cast.

The 326 HO was a far more rare option than the GTO option so that would be one explanation for why this particular engine languished in inventory for as long as it did. However, not all 326 HO engines exhibit that kind of spread so more likely it was just an anomaly.

Without the Warranty Booklet or some other documentation to show the original EUN, nobody can really know if an engine is correct based on cast date.

I usually advise that as long as the Engine Assembly existed at the time the car went to final assembly, anything is possible.

Some are more plausible than others, but that is a minor quibble in my book.

I have not logged any '64 GTOs with such a spread but that doesn't mean it didn't happen.

I used to believe that the satellite plants such as Fremont would typically show wider spreads than the home Pontiac Plant. However, it turns out that even this isn't necessarily so.

A 2 month spread for your May built GTO would be unusual (at least in '64 but probably also true if you logged '65 data). But I wouldn't say it wasn't possible.

Just my opinion!

[Chief of the 60's]

Originally Posted by tripower

Another person who has problems with how others restore their cars.

Another person that doesn't know how things work in a production factory or the real world.

I still also owned an all original 40,000 mile late '64 built '65 with early '64 plug wires. How's that for date codes.

[Chief of the 60's]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

If you are a GTO Salesman, get the dates perfect.
One less question asked by the "Numbers People" who might want to buy the car the GTO Salesman is selling.

If you are a GTO Owner and are keeping the car FOR YOU and the engine is a good deal and will give YOU (the car owner) good service for several years, buy the engine and install it.

I personally am not a Numbers Guy but I do enjoy reading the GTO History like the Nationwide Strike Info.

Tom V.

Intelligent guy right here. Even knows what happens when there are strikes.

To the OP..... If the part numbers are correct, that's all that matters. Unless you think you are going to be at a car show where they pull your engine apart and bust you for not having the correct date coded pistons.

[Tom Vaught]

Until the "word" got out many "Trophy Hunters" were passing their 421 cid blocks/ engines off at the car shows with a simple "Its a stock 389" comment. But I never was a "Wood Hunter" but if that is your pleasure, go for it.

Now John V's "Obsession with Numbers" is perfectly normal. My "Obsession" is with Boost.

Tom V.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Now John V's "Obsession with Numbers" is perfectly normal.

I'm not so sure about that.

[Chief of the 60's]

LOL

[John V.]

Keith and Tom, with friends like these....

Numbers are (mostly) rational. People? Not so much!

[Keith Seymore]

Reminds me of a joke I just heard (read):

http://www.yenko.net/forum/showthrea...highlight=joke

K

[Greg Reid]

I have the largest time gap I've run across yet on my '68...I know it's not a '65 but still interesting I think to this thread.
Car was built 2nd week MAY 1968...engine and heads are October and November of '67.
7 months....Yes, numbers match, EUN, partial VIN on block and frame rail.
Anyone seen a gap bigger than that?
How 'bout it John V.?

[Chief of the 60's]

Originally Posted by Greg Reid

I have the largest time gap I've run across yet on my '68...I know it's not a '65 but still interesting I think to this thread.
Car was built 2nd week MAY 1968...engine and heads are October and November of '67.
7 months....Yes, numbers match, EUN, partial VIN on block and frame rail.
Anyone seen a gap bigger than that?
How 'bout it John V.?

Yours and the '65 I had are unusual for sure due to parts dated well before the cars were built. However, it is extremely common to find dated parts beyond the vehicle's build date due to issues at the factory, in transportation, at the dealership or after customer delivery due to warranty. Vehicles break or can get damaged anywhere and at anytime. When I toured the Corvette plant, 2 new Vettes were pushed off the end of the assembly line and one in repair had a piece of the trailing edge of the right door broke off on a convertible. Yep, there goes date codes and originality.

[John V.]

Keith, thanks for the laugh!

Greg, that is a wide gap for '68 I think. By the mid '70s, the gaps became a lot less consistent, as the years went on wider spreads became more common by what I've come across.

The last of the Pontiac 400 blocks from what I remember learning years ago were cast in Nov. '77 and eventually found their way into the 400 powered TAs and Formulas built as late as May '79 IIRC. But of course that is a special case.

Is your EUN consistent with the cast date or did the block sit around awhile before becoming part of the engine assembly?

I once came across a block cast as I remember it in Feb '65. Somewhere I have details of this story but just going by memory at the moment. It did not involve a GTO. As I recall, it did not become part of an engine assembly until early in the '66 Model Year. Since the casting p/n hadn't changed, there was no reason for the block not to part of a "next model year" engine assembly but it seemed so illogical for a Feb cast block to have sat for that many months without becoming part of an engine assembly.

It was so unusual in my experience that I wondered if perhaps the cast date tag was a foundry mistake and that it was cast much later than the Feb date suggested by the cast date tag.

No way to know for sure but I just chalked it up to it being an anomaly that was out of step with what we typically see.

You might think it was a restamp but the evidence did not indicate that either.

In the end, it just "was". No need to draw any conclusion about it but it was fun for me to study that particular anomaly. Without knowing what is typical, I would not have known whether it was unusual or not. I'm fascinated by these and many other nos., so sue me!!!

[tempest1964]

Wel, all I can say is, that sounds very logical! Lol

[tripower]

Originally Posted by Chief of the 60's

Another person that doesn't know how things work in a production factory or the real world.

I still also owned an all original 40,000 mile late '64 built '65 with early '64 plug wires. How's that for date codes.

I’m pretty sure I know how it works. You’re just being an for ass telling the OP he is a “unicorn” for his interest in finding the engine he wants for his car. Whatever a “unicorn”is to you. You can enlighten us.