Ugly, bland and over priced.

[ClassJ]

Call it what you want....I have been around GTO's my whole life. Dad is the original owner of our 67. I was looking for a new car last year as a daily driver and was willing to spend up to about $60K. I was raised on Pontiacs and would have loved for it to be a new GTO.

However with that said, I could not warm up to the Australian jelly bean. I test drove it. Really did not like it. Truthfully it felt heavy and pokey relative to anything modern high performance I would be interested in and pushed like a plow. Other than looks, I could care less how "authentic" it is. I wanted a modern high performance car. This was not it and reminded me of a 90's grand am. My 20 year old porsche I had out for a spin that day felt better looked more modern, and drew more attention.

The dealer was chopping cash off of the price claiming "the sales are down". Dad went and looked at one later that week. He spent 5 minutes in the dealer and walked out shaking his head.

I borrowed a buddies M3 for a week which was very nice but a little too muted and reserved. Drove a new Cayman S which was a screamer but deemed it a little impractical for the winter. Then I stopped in at a Ford dealer for giggles one night. Drove a 06 Mustang GT. Before going in I said, "no way I am buying a ford, but what the hell, it is a nice night" Two weeks later I picked one up after finding the right color and getting a dealer to chop the 4K above sticker due to high demand. The mustang handles better, stops better, and with 1000 dollars in bolt ons is quicker than the few new GTO's I have ran against on the track, and looks great! All for less money!

Whereas ford hit the nail on the head. Pontiac missed the nail by 20 feet IMO.

I should have been the easiest person to sell a new GTO to. There was nothing thrilling about it. Even forgetting heritage, the pre-owned nissan Altima sitting next to it looked great compared to the GTO. And most of the things I drove felt better behind the wheel. To each his own I guess.

[Dick Boneske]

ClassJ,
You're right. To each his own. I own two '64 GTO's and one '04 GTO. Other than headturning appeal, the '04 GTO is a better car on all counts. All the magazine tests I've read on the '04-'06 GTO's rated them very highly--compared with Mercedes, BMW, Mustang, and others. Hard to understand how your dad has a '67 GTO but shakes his head at the new ones.

It's interesting that you state it was necessary to spend $1,000 on bolt-ons to make your Mustang faster than the new GTO's. Ever wonder what $1,000 of bolt-ons would do for the LSX engines in the GTO's? I don't buy your statement of better handling for the Mustang, either.

I think most people on this board that love Pontiacs, including myself, like to be different from the pack. We may be OK with Buicks or Oldsmobiles, but not Chevrolets or Mustangs. Driving a Camaro, Mustang, or Chevelle kind of puts you in the category of being like everyone else. JMO.

[ClassJ]

Correct. There are a ton of Mustangs out there and I still love 60's-70's ponchos to death. And a stock S197 mustang is not quite as fast in the straight line as a new 6.0L GTO (very close). But considering the mustang was $27,800 out the door fully loaded to the hilt and new GTO was a smidge over 30K even after the dealer chopping the price and calling me three times that week to buy it, I think I did ok.

Everyone has their own idea of what a good handling car is too. Compared to any vintage musclecar the new GTO is amazing. But the fact is that at lime rock and Watkins glen this summer I saw new mustangs with springs, shocks and bars, essentially keeping pace with E46 M3's (considered a handling benchmark car costing twice as much). Can a new GTO do that? Not sure. But when I tossed one into a corner a few times on my test ride it was not nearly as fun or sharp as the mustang in stock form which in itself is not a perfect handling car and I will admit that outwardly, but very good.

Regarding dad's opinion of the car, he was waiting for a new gto for years..... his words were something like.....

"in 1967, the salesman pulled the car in front of the dealer, I looked it over while it idled there and regardless of how it drove, I wanted it. The new GTO does not do a thing for me style wise and looks like every other thing on the road, it could turn the quarter in 11 flat and pull 2 g's on the skidpad, I still would not want it"

I guess my point is this and really only this. This thread is about why the new GTO failed. I loved 60's and 70's pontiacs especially GTO's. Grew up on them, worked on them, drive them, been to the shows, am a subscribing GTOAA member, etc etc. I will be the first to say to anyone that the original GTO's were great cars plagued with tons of problems, nothing that cannot be made better, but new cars in general have come a long way. With that said I also have no allegiances to any specific brands and love high performance automobiles of all sorts.

I walked into a pontiac dealer to look at a new GTO which was in my price range thinking "how cool would it be to own a new one and the 67". Simply put, the looks did nothing for me, the power was just about typical compared to other things I was looking at, the handling was so so, it was a little heavy for a sports car at 3750 lbs, and the fact that the car was simply a re badged holden annoyed me a tad. The original GTO was, is, and always will be a modified tempest to me. There is nothing mystical about the name. Just like a M3 is a 3 series, etc. But the new GTO was not really a pontiac as designed, not a tempest, just an import. It felt like an import in a lot of ways. I guess the fact that it was a marketing ploy and a half assed way to bring the GTO brand back rather than do it the right way bothered me. They should have just called it a monaro.


If Pontiac did not sell me or dad a new GTO who exactly were they planning on selling it to?

I truly believe that cars sell or flop based on their merits. If the new GTO looked hot, was fast as stink and handled great they would have walked off of the lot. Whether it looked like an old GTO or not!

The market was ripe for a 30K dollar V8 coupe, ford managed to sell 125K+ mustangs a year from 2005-2008? ( about half of them GT's). The GTO failed mainly because of its looks. In 1974 and in 2006. Just like the aztec did.

[69Goat1]

I have 2 69's and neither are fragile and they didn't start life as an import... for the life of me I could not remember seeing an - 04/06 GTO in my town until I really started trying to see them - you know what I mean... "theres one..oops..nah it is another Cavalier" I have actually found a few sitting in parking lots and driving but I have never just corner of my eye noticed one ever...

Park an 04/06 next to either one of my 69's and people will be sitting and leaning on it to look at these...

[ClassJ]

It did take me weeks to "see" New GTO's on the street.

The big difference is. Take the 67 (or any old GTO) out for a ride. It has the ability to stop traffic and draws a crowd everywhere. Ever see a group of 17 year old kids start jumping up and down on a street corner and waving just to hear you blip the throttle? Or at a crossing see a 9 year old's face light up like a Christmas tree, grab his mother shirt and point "mommy mommy!!! A 1967 GTO. A GTO. Thats what I want, thats what I want". I am not so sure the 04-06 has ever or will ever generate that kind of response from anyone. The originals were great for a reason far exceeding their performance. But I have to say I get at least 2 people compliment the mustang a week. Which amazed me since it was new being it is just a new car and "another mustang"

The 63-67 corvettes are worth big money at this point. If you look at a new corvette they look damn nice and perform well. It is plausible that they will be a car people remember.

The old mustangs are an icon. New mustangs are popular. (they are now allowing them into most cruise nights near me because they are "vintage appearing") I can see them being a car people will love far into the future.

I think the new GTO will be remembered as something Pontiac did on very little marketing/development coin and failed at. Not because it was a bad car, just not what people wanted style wise.

People call me crazy. But as much as I love small/light sports cars I am not sure the new GTO should try to be one if the market could handle it.

I think BMW M6 size is just about right. Of course then we need a firebird to become the light car in the lineup.

Sometimes I think BMW took Pontiacs 60's marketing ideas, the phrase "the ultimate driving machine" and ran with it.

[RandyW]

Yea, the GTO was 200 lbs heavier than the Mustang GT and 1/2-3/4 second quicker depending on the combos involved. Want to talk overweight pigs, how about the Shelby GT500. It weighs 3900+ lbs, is supercharged, enough cams for four cars, has more valves than a pipe organ and was slower than a stock C6 Vette.

[ClassJ]

Yup.... OT but actually the GT500 is closer to 4000 lbs, new my GT came in at around 3450. I was planning on picking up a GT500 and selling my GT to dad since he loves the thing. But I can't live with 550 additional lbs in the nose and not much quicker than a lightly modified GT, with the same interior, etc, all for twice the money at the time with the markup. Now they can be had for MSRP. Still no great deal imo. Ford screwed up on that one.

The best part about the GT500 is that the sway bars, Brembo brakes, control arms, and strut bearings work great on my GT.

[87LC2]

Mustang GT better than a GTO?

Even motor trend had to give the Mustang, 25 "gotta have it" points, just to keep it on par with the GTO's real performance statistics.

A friend at work with a '05 Mustang GT was playing with a new GTO in traffic, his quote..."If I'd have tried that, I would've been on my roof".
In a Mustang fanboi's own words, he admitted the Mustang was nowhere near the handling class of the GTO.

He has a tune, headers, cat-back, CAI and 275 drag radials, more than $1000 and he still can't touch a stock Ls2.

Heavy? It weighs the same as all 1968 and newer GTO's 3725lbs.

I paid the same for my 2006 GTO as my friend paid for his 2005 Mustang...I win.


30 years ago the old GTO's were something, now just antiques best used with lawn chairs.

Time marches on, let go man, just let go.

[69Goat1]

The thing is whether time is marching on or not my 69's with a lot less $ are worth more and definitely have a lot more punch than the new Monaro... in about 40 years tell us how great these new ones are after all the plastic breaks and crumbles.

Lets compare gas station stories! You know... the stories that pop up at the pump when you are standing there filling your tank - I bet I have more of them per trip than anyone with an 04/06 would Tells me a lot...

[ClassJ]

First off. You are quoting motortrend???? Every car enthusiast worth his salt knows that motortrend is among the absolute WORST when it comes to automotive journalism. I don't care who won the fight, their conclusions are not worth the paper they are written on. When Autoweek does that same test, let me know. Oh, wait, they did, and without "25 bonus points" they also voted for the stang and claimed the car was more fun to drive, lighter on its feet, etc.

You can tell me what you want. I am sure the new GTO is capable but my butt had more fun in the mustang and I did not like the handing on the GTO. And yes, I did now modify the mustangs suspension a bit. Nothing major, shocks, springs, sways, etc. And the car is even better. If you think stock for stock the GTO carves corners better, to each his own. I drove everything out there for around 30K and some much higher priced at the time. GTO, 350z, evo, mustang, etc. The gto was just about on the bottom of my "gotta have it" list in all respects. Which is why the car flopped and the others are still selling great! Simple as that. If the new GTO was such an amazing, great looking, fast, fun, car people would have bought them even if it was called the Pontiac whatever!!!

The Aztec was voted "ugliest production vehicle of all time" by several magazines and still gets mentioned for it's horrible body. Yet they managed to sell A LOT more of those than GTO's even if you discount the ones sold to rental places.

now just antiques best used with lawn chairs

mmmhmmm. right sure....

What amazes me is that whenever someone mentions anything bad about the new GTO relative to modern performance cars their owners bash the original GTO's. I don't think anyone here really cares about how great or not their original GTO is relative to a new one. Ya know what, there are 40 years difference in technology between them. There ought to be a difference. Just sad it took 40 years of BS for it to happen.

I think dad did say it best. "It could turn 11's and pull 2g's on the track and I would not want one"

Excuse me....I have to go out for a ride in our lawn chair. bbl

[GTO JUDGE]

Originally Posted by ClassJ

But considering the mustang was $27,800 out the door fully loaded to the hilt and new GTO was a smidge over 30K even after the dealer chopping the price and calling me three times that week to buy it, I think I did ok.

Interesting, EVERY Mustang GT I saw on lots in 2005-2006 were in the mid to HIGH 40's. All were sporting the 20K Dealer Applied Rectal Mark up. ALL OF THEM. I saw a USED 05 stang vert sitting on a GM lot for 39K. When I went looking at them I could NOT get one for under 45K BEFORE tax, tags etc. 27.8K out the door?? I'd love to see the paperwork reflecting that. If you did get one OTD for 27.8 that Ford Dealer deserves Angel's Wings because the Dealers were ripping their customer's off.

I ordered my GTO, I ordered the SAP and it was still 14K less than the Stang GT's sitting on area lots. I saw NO GTO's with mark ups like the Stang had. Lets keep the comparison in $$ in real time.

[ClassJ]

Would you like a copy of the bill of sale?????? I would be more than happy to post it!

I waited for the dealer markups to almost end. They continued for a long while due to the demand for the car and dealer greed.

The dealers wanted about 4K over sticker in march-april of 2006 when I got mine. After bargaining quite a bit I got 3 dealers to agree to order a 2007 car at 1000 under MSRP with a 12-16 week lead time on stick GT's. Finally I had a dealer do a search for the option/colors I wanted and ended up finding the exact car I wanted in a 2006 just rolling off the truck 2 hours away from me (last month of 2006, job #2 production). I called the dealer, they wanted the sale, and a day later I drove the car home. It was not too hard, just had to look at little outside of Bergen county NJ to find the right price and dealer with a few cars on the lot.

And yes, in late 2004 and 2005 they were going for 40K++ from what I hear. Which I would think have boosted GTO sales at the time? No?

[GTO JUDGE]

If you keep the actual sales price comparison from 2004-2006 the GTO's were some 15K cheaper. A Bigger BANG for the buck.

[ClassJ]

Yes, you are right, this happened shortly after Pontiac dealers realized that they could not charge markups as Ford was doing. Which was great! Markups suck and the dealers were all greedy as usual! Pontiac was also chopping prices below MSRP pretty deep. I remember ads on the radio from local dealers offering cheap cheap leases and big bucks off of MSRP for new GTO's touting it's performance, etc.

So even with a 15K dollar advantage toward the GTO back in 04-05 with good dealer prices off MSRP on the GTO's, stock on the lots when Mustang dealers had no GT's (at least around here every Pontiac dealer had 1 to 3 GTO's park in front that sat for weeks).

Sooo with all that. Why didn't they sell like hotcakes?

Like I said, not a bad car as cars go. I liked the new mustang much better in most aspects but opinions are like belly buttons, everyone has one and they are all different.

It had the wrong styling or aura or lacked that something special or whatever you want to call it for the time and once the bad press started to hit the fan Pontiac backed away from the car and almost shunned it. Rather than making a good push to market the thing Pontiac did almost everything in their power to kill the car once they realized a HP boost dual exhaust and some scoops were not enough. They could have kept it alive with some marketing to boost sales to tide them over. If they started a parallel design path with the camaro the re-styled GTO would be almost complete and people would be questioning whether a GTO and a Camaro can co-exist at GM.

Personally, I would have brought it into the US as a Monaro. Held it as a placeholder in the lineup until a real development/marketing effort could be made, and go from there.

Nothing impossible. A little retro would have gone a LONG way. The porsche 911, VW beatle, mustang, camaro, challenger, and corvette all made it work and have done pretty well to date (although it is too soon to tell for the camaro and challenger)

[pont3]

Originally Posted by ClassJ

Yes, you are right, this happened shortly after Pontiac dealers realized that they could not charge markups as Ford was doing. Which was great! Markups suck and the dealers were all greedy as usual! Pontiac was also chopping prices below MSRP pretty deep. I remember ads on the radio from local dealers offering cheap cheap leases and big bucks off of MSRP for new GTO's touting it's performance, etc.

So even with a 15K dollar advantage toward the GTO back in 04-05 with good dealer prices off MSRP on the GTO's, stock on the lots when Mustang dealers had no GT's (at least around here every Pontiac dealer had 1 to 3 GTO's park in front that sat for weeks).

Sooo with all that. Why didn't they sell like hotcakes?

Like I said, not a bad car as cars go. I liked the new mustang much better in most aspects but opinions are like belly buttons, everyone has one and they are all different.

It had the wrong styling or aura or lacked that something special or whatever you want to call it for the time and once the bad press started to hit the fan Pontiac backed away from the car and almost shunned it. Rather than making a good push to market the thing Pontiac did almost everything in their power to kill the car once they realized a HP boost dual exhaust and some scoops were not enough. They could have kept it alive with some marketing to boost sales to tide them over. If they started a parallel design path with the camaro the re-styled GTO would be almost complete and people would be questioning whether a GTO and a Camaro can co-exist at GM.

Personally, I would have brought it into the US as a Monaro. Held it as a placeholder in the lineup until a real development/marketing effort could be made, and go from there.

Nothing impossible. A little retro would have gone a LONG way. The porsche 911, VW beatle, mustang, camaro, challenger, and corvette all made it work and have done pretty well to date (although it is too soon to tell for the camaro and challenger)

So, why the eff are you here? Take your ass back to the Mustang forums. I own two new age GTOs and a '72 GTO, and a '71 Lemans Sport, and a '72 Grand Prix. I tested several of the new Mustangs and couldn't disagree with you more. You like your new Mustang, we like our new GTOs. What's the problem here? YOU are on a GTO forum dissing a car WE love. Who the hell do you think you are to troll Mustangs on our forum? Even though I have never uttered a single negative word about Mustangs, it doesn't mean I'm as enamoured with them as you are. Phuck retro and all the retro Mustangs. Sorry, I forgot, you're so much smarter than everyone here.

[GTO JUDGE]

The dealers in my area were only allocated so many. They all sold pretty fast and they had trouble finding some for customers. Demographics. Big Cities with multiple dealers carried a larger inventory. None of the Dealers in my area had them sitting around very long. Had they carried 10 at a clip maybe they would have.

I'm old school, I love the older ones. I'd love to see some retro to the new gens, (even though many people are anti retro). I purchased my car because it carried the GTO badge. Had it said Monaro, I may not have given it a second glance. I went to my local Dealers open house when the 04's were released, I was not impressed. I thought, what a travesty. I learned the 05's would be tweaked, I saw pics of them and read up on them. I gave it a chance. I talked to a few 04 owners who were old school as well. I got thumbs up on performance. I read more. I ordered mine. In the meantime I got to drive an 04 and an 05. That's all it took. Retro? Not on the outside but under the hood? OH YEA.

Personally had I been calling the shots, I would have got Jim Wangers involved in the design and performance of the new ones and acted on his input. Jim has embraced the new ones. Despite what anyone thinks, it is what it is. I would not have given up on the new gens, I would have redesigned it with the help of Jim.

Again there is talk of a possible 2010, 2011. I DON'T believe it. I have seen the proposed look of it. If by chance another GTO materializes, Wangers input should be utilized. In the meantime I will proudly drive my GTO.

[ClassJ]

it doesn't mean I'm as enamoured with them as you are

LMAO. There are a ton of things I would like to be different about the mustang. Lets shave 300lbs off of it and toss in an LS7 for starters or any pushrod motor with a tad more bottom end. It runs great times but around town a little more low end grunt would be nice.

Troll? Me? Nah. Read the above. Card carrying GTOAA member and lover of the 67 we have had in our family since 1967. I drive it regularly and love the thing to death. I am also considering building up a 65 vert in the future.

I was here for some 67 tech and saw this thread (which I thought was to discuss why the new GTO failed). Figured I would post a bit. If you guys love the new GTO, I am glad, I wish they still made the things really since it was a shame to kill the name again.

Sorry, I forgot, you're so much smarter than everyone here.

Nah. Never claimed to be. BUT. When new GTO owners that don't own originals defend their cars by bashing the original, you have to wonder where their head is at.

Regardless of how it did/didn't perform. How retro it was/wasn't. Or anything else for that matter. Pontiac sold a few, it flopped, they killed it. Obviously some people loved them but the majority either did not know about them due to poor marketing, or were people like me who knew everything about them, wanted to buy a new GTO, but were let down by pontiac stylistically.

[Mr_GTO]

Originally Posted by ClassJ

Regardless of how it did/didn't perform. How retro it was/wasn't. Or anything else for that matter. Pontiac sold a few, it flopped, they killed it. Obviously some people loved them but the majority either did not know about them due to poor marketing, or were people like me who knew everything about them, wanted to buy a new GTO, but were let down by pontiac stylistically.

Regardless of performance? 13.1@105 isn't good? Styling is subjective...always has been, always will be.

You do realize that the car wasn't brought here to sell in high numbers? You do realize that the relativly soft sales vs what was expected to sell wasn't what killed the car?

Again, styling is subjective. You claim to know everything about them... I find that VERY hard to believe.

[RandyW]

Pontiac only expected to sell 15000 per year +or- 10%. Holden only had enough production surplus capacity to build about 16000 each year. So sales were not far off from predictions. The idea was for that car to tide them over until the current G8 platform was ready and then they were originally slated for USA production starting last year. But economy, sales and market reality changed the plan. The G8 is a terrific car but still made down under.

[Dragncar]

Right on ClassJ and 69Goat1,you guys get it.
A nice 69 GTO will stop traffic,every time you pull up at the gas station someone tells you nice car.Tells you a Pontiac story.Been there,its a good feeling.
It will never happen like that with a new gto.
They are LAME.Poor exuse for the GTO name.Small,bland,ugly,look like a half worn out bar of soap and no Pontiac engine.Thats a big deal to people like me.
Will never accept the car as a GTO.I am not the only one.
I know women,Pontiac chicks if you will who laugh at them.
The cars are just not cool.A non Pontiac Pontiac.
They look too much like ricers.
And Ford did nail it,Pontiac blew it.
The new Ford looked like a Mach One right from the start.It had the right modern look and Pontiacs car was a "whats this".
And the Ford engine is closer to a Pontiac engine than that LS1 will ever be.
Its a scaled down copy of the Pontiac SOHC 427 modular Hemi.Heck the Mustang started out as a Pontiac design and sold it to Ford.