[68 Prix]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Project Gattago:


Give me a break. The reason I built a Pontiac is because it looks better then any car Chevy ever made. I don't even want to go into the reasons to use corporate power. The list is like the Energizer Bunny....it keeps going..and going..and going....


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why you getting mad? I am just adding my opinion. Alot of people are making a big deal out of cost. I like the looks of Pontiacs myself. I am also a rare for my age of 25 in the fact that I think a major part that makes the Pontiac cool is it's unique motor .

Must come from the old guy I ran into in high school telling me his 350 powered GTO was the fastest thing in town. Until I told him to put his money where his mouth was. I just don't like people that want to do it just because it is cheep. If people are that darn cheep then why have a hobby car ? Have an ant farm that is cheep enough.

And why not tell us why you used a "corporate" motor? If it is not because it is cheep then why? And if it is because a Pontiac motor is out dated that is a joke, you would have used a 5.4 Ford then.

[andrewb70]

I am not getting mad. Just telling it like it is. I used a Chevy engine cause it kicks ass. Show me a Pontiac that can make 500RWHP with 8.75:1 compression, get 18 MPG and idle like a pussy cat at 850 RPM?

Andrew

Project GatTagO

[This message was edited by Project Gattago on March 12, 2003 at 01:20 AM.]

[68 Prix]

well lets see last time I checked the motor is only a part of fuel milage. Also HP is only part of a performance equasion. It is not that we are hooking up 500 horses to our cars. There is also torque to move the mass of our cars.
Give me the Torque of a Pontiac, why was the RA 4 GTO so close to the LS6 Chevelle in the quarter with 84hp lower motor?
I personally feel Chevy motors are used because people really don't do there home work. Plain and simple. I bet a Pontiac could do what you want and it would just be harder then going to the local K-mart and looking for that bluelight special on Chevy motors. That is just my opinion though. So it all comes down to cost yet again.

[andrewb70]

Opinions...opinions...we all know how those go...

I am done. This is going to get into a pissing match. Lets just agree to disagree. Give me the blue light special any day.

Andrew

Project GatTagO

[68 Prix]

Well if you are ever at the track maybe we can line the big bad rat up and see what it can do against a Ponch. I should be at BOP day at the Grove. Should be no problem with that 500 rwhp.

[fast1970transam]

There are only so many green M&M's a man can eat before he wants a blue M&M !!!!(by 72lemans)

[Motornoggin]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 68 Prix:
Well if you are ever at the track maybe we can line the big bad rat up and see what it can do against a Ponch. I should be at BOP day at the Grove. Should be no problem with that 500 rwhp.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sure, then you can go visit a road course and run a few laps, maybe take in an auto-cross event and then go for a couple hundred mile cruise. Then see how your car stacks up. The drag strip isn't the only way to measure performance.

Prevert? I'm way past that! I'm a Postvert!
http://community.webshots.com/user/motornoggin

[Rockhead400]

Yeah, if you really want to save money, build a Bu, thats cool code for Malibu. The wagons are even cheaper. I really do think the metallic blue pontiac engine looks really cool in my goat. People assume its the original engine since it is the right size and color. They also like the fact that its a big block, you can see the fear in their eyes! Having an old Pontiac is something rare and special, dropping in crate engines is not. I should note that Chevy cars were my first love and what got me into cars. I plan to build a Chevelle for my daughter one day.

Pontiac's that haul ass with Pontiac engines!

[andrewb70]

How much was that Big Block Pontiac?


Andrew

Project GatTagO

[68 Prix]

Motornoggin. I was just offering a friendly little race at a place that looks to be inbetween for both me and Gattago.. I will take my Pontiac on a couple thousand mile trip . I know that there is plenty of ways to check performance. Why don't we include a little mud drags while we are at it and dirt oval. Hell lets go out to Arizona and go race in the sand dunes .

[This message was edited by 68 Prix on March 14, 2003 at 09:53 AM.]

[68 Prix]

See I knew it was a cost issue.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Project Gattago:
How much was that Big Block Pontiac?


Andrew

http://groups.msn.com/projectgattago
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And Motornoggen- As I read this today I see another point. In road racing it takes drivers skill. We are talking about putting a two bit piece of Chevy engineering against a Pontiac to see what is better . Like we really need to ask. LOL.

In my opionion Chevy motors are cool, but just not in a Pontiac. My brother has a 454 in his 55 Bel Air and I would take it in a heart beat.

As we are only talking about the motor, and only the motor, a drag race is the simplest way. Suspension does play a part along with the drive line to some point. But mostly it is all motor. Hardly any drivers skill is involved,in this hp range.

I would in no way say my full size could out handle an A body or even the G bodies. I won't even get into the F bodies.

I do find it funny almost anyone that has a Chevy motor always has "500 horse power". I would honestly like to see what half of them actually dyno out at.

And I also know Chevy motors are actually not much cheeper to build. And that is small blocks. Big blocks are around the same cost.

[This message was edited by 68 Prix on March 15, 2003 at 09:21 AM.]

[andrewb70]

Its actually 515, but who is counting. If you are ever at the Grove, feel free to say hello.

Andrew



Project GatTagO

[kate`s67gto]

Last summer at cruise in i was at, this man had a 67 gto. Had to go see it as i was hunting for a 67 gto. He lifted the hood upon request and low and behold there sat a chev engine turned my stomach . I also have a 70 cutlass with a olds 350 now there is an engine. tough and powerful. would never consider putting a chev mush engine in .

[tom s]

anyone notice anything weird about that chart?I think HP and TQ should ALWAYS cross at 5250!Am I correct?Tom

[b-man]

Maybe they cross at 5252 on an engine dyno but not on a chassis dyno.

[tom s]

b man,just checked my chassis dyno sheets from R&D in Gardena,they crossed.Tom

[Tom Vaught]

Tom S,

Unless the Chevy guys know how to change the basic
Torque/Hp engineering relationship Hp and Torque
will ALWAYS cross at 5250 rpm.

The fact that his Torque falls off and crosses the HP line around 4800 tells me the dyno run was
corrupted. Apparently he bought the powertrain from the Detroit Speed people and they never bothered to tell him that relationship. After all
both owners are former suspension engineers from
GM and probably do not deal with engines much.

He has a beautifully constructed GTO with all the
latest driveline and suspension/brake mods. Drool
everytime I read about the car.

Item TWO:

Been around BB Chevy guys for years. Friend had a
64 GTO with 396 "375" engine. Ran 11.70s in mid
70s. Rectangular port engine. A friend named Ralph Piper had a 66 tempest in the same time period with a 455 that would run 11.55 et.

Another friend had 66 chevelle with 427 L-88 heads
and crash box built with tunnel ram and 660s.
Would run 10.70s at 129.

Quite a few pontiacs today will run those times
with one 4 barrel. Maybe not the mph though.

Real advantage to Big Chevy crate motors is they are cheap, same for SB chevy stuff, Has been that
way for years. Pontiacs can be made to run as fast.

Item Three:

Quote"

The Pontiac is the best engine ever designed and has yet to reach its development peak"

Steve, that is a REAL STRETCH even for you to say.

Most engineers would say the Formula 1 engines out there right now are the best. Air craft types
would say the "Griffin" or Merlin" engines would
be the best.

I will say the Pontiac was one of the most
"Modular" engines ever created. Even better than the SB Chevy. Tom V.

[andrewb70]

If you guys look carefully at the chart, you will see that the scales for the HP and TQ are different. This causes the lines to intersect at a point other then 5252 RPM. If you were to plot the curves on the same scale then they would indeed cross at 5252 RPM.

Here is a video of a few dyno runs. I seem to have a problem with my video camera thats why the audio cuts out sometimes.

Dyno video

The only thing that was done by Detroit Speed and Engineering was the dash insert, wiring, and vintage air install. They had nothing to do with any part of the driveline.

Andrew

Project GatTagO

[This message was edited by Project Gattago on March 15, 2003 at 08:49 PM.]

[Tom McQueen]

Projects like this cost a lot in time and cash. Ask me how I know. If youre going after really big street power (540ci+) there is only one path with a Pontiac and at least several dozen with a BBC. Its a cheap and easy way to save a ton of $$$ and time, and its also a decision completely up to the cars owner. As it should be. And there will always be those who refuse to accept that decision, and that is their right. As for me, Im on that one and only path. And I can see the finish line.

[Steve Barcak]

Hey Tom McQueen,
How is that animal of yours coming along? Are you going to bring it to my deal in 3 weeks? Even if it isn't finished, you should bring it. I have a project class and a car of the caliber you are building needs to be seen by others. You will influence others with that car, show it off. People like you are helping to promote the use of REAL Pontiac power! Hats off to you.
More to the list- Pontiac engineering design virtues over the cheby
*Pontiac head bolt holes are blind, chebs go into water
* Pontiacs use 1/2” main and head bolts , chebs use 7/16” bigger bolts means better clamping, no need for extra bolts to make up for the small size.
* Pontiacs have a square, relatively even crush pattern around each bore, chevs do not. Later designs (rats) had to add extra bolts to aid in the design flaw.
* Pontiac head bolt holes are cast strongly into the sides of the block minimizing cylinder distortion. chebs have heads bolt mounts cast to the cylinders causing distortion during torquing.
* There is nothing wrong with a well-prepared Pontiac cast crank. Pontiac cranks have more cross section then a cheb. There are Pontiacs running on the strips in the 9’s, 8’s and 7’s with cast cranks (455 version of the Grocery Getter is an example). If you are building more than 800hp or want to go faster than 8‘s or 7‘s than the crank cost is an issue, not until then. At that point the cheb forging cost is less, but few are building more power than that.
* Pontiacs have a taller deck than any passenger car cheb. this allows longer rods for better rod angularity. tall decks and long rods have become quite fashionalbe in cheb land in recent years. Pontiac had them in 1955.
* Pontiacs have a wider oil pan for more capacity and do not need special stroker pans as the chebs do
*Pontiacs design was so good, only 1 basic design version was needed from 265 to 455 and now with over 600 inch capability. chebs have used 3 designs ( 1955 through the 80’s) and few parts interchange between them.
*Pontiac V-8 component interchage is without parallel in the industry, yes, even over the sbc.
*Lower revving Pontiacs need less expensive valve train components than their cheb counterparts that may need to rev higher to go as fast.
* street/strip Pontiacs usually need less rear gear than a cheb to run into the 12’s which is the goal for many who do not want to add a roll bar. I have known many Pontiac powered cars (even years ago) that used 2.56-2.78 gears, including myself to run in the 12's. There were so many cheb guys doing the same thing with their 4.11s and 4.88s.
* a lower revving street engine like a big Pontiac uses less gas, lasts longer and is more reliable than your high revving cheb
* Although many of the “in” group consider the REAL Pontiac a dated design, let’s try to count all the things the cheb guys have done to copy this “dated” design
* the ”stroker” small block craze ( for more bottom end street torque), separate valley covers to keep heat off the bottom of the manifold, moving the starter to the left side of the motor for better use of kickout pans, Oil baffles under the valve covers, hardened push rods with guide plates (Pontiac had them, even on low performance versions by ‘67), street/strip rats with smaller ports to go faster (geez, Pontiac know this decades back!). 2 piece timing covers, taller deck heights, longer rods and on and on.
How many more can you add here?
Considering how many millions and millions of dollars that has been put into cheb development, it is a wonder it can’t do any better.
Back to the crate issue- I still chuckle when someone is proud of their crate motor. There is a saying I see on many race cars, it states” If you didn’t build it yourself, it ain’t yours!”
Steve Barcak www.pontiacheaven.org
"Real Pontiacs Only....No Corporate nonsense!"

[This message was edited by Steve Barcak on March 16, 2003 at 02:05 AM.]