[Poncho60]

1st off, I haven't really dug into this yet other than being a little intimidated by the service manual, but here goes. The hydro in my 60 is erratic taking off in 1st gear. I don't really get on it, so maybe that's part of the problem. I see there are two linkage adjustments dealing with the trans----a TV adjustment, and a shift detent adjustment. Before I dig into these, I'm just wondering how much the engine state of tune effects
1st gear operation. Maybe I should go there first. Trans seems to work OK (?) otherwise----2nd, 3rd, 4th and the kickdown all seem OK. If I'm going to end up fooling with the linkage etc, I should probably use that as en excuse to convert to the 4 brl setup I've got waiting for the car. Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thx.

[Jack Gifford]

The highest priority item would be the "shift detent adjustment", which merely means getting the lever to correctly position the shift arm on the transmission.

After that, it's a toss-up whether to first look at engine-tune or TV linkage. If it were me, and I felt that low-speed engine tune was pretty far off, I guess I'd start there.

Can you describe the "erratic' first-gear operation?

[stevep]

I would also like to know what you mean about "erratic" 1st gear operation.

[Poncho60]

Took the car out tonight for a short while in order to "refresh" my memory--what's left of it. Of course, true to form didn't really notice much. All I can say that every once in a while, seems like the speed goes a little high before shifting into 2nd. Also, occassionally the trans will shift too soon and kind of lug the engine (IMO) for a second. If you have any suggestions that would be great. Guess otherwise I should get busy with an engine tune up, trans fluid change, and trying to find the source of a "howl" that I'm hearing. Any tips on the best reasonable source for the trans filter and required gaskets? Thx for any info!

[stevep]

Before you drop the pan, check the operation of the linkage from the carb to the trans. Make sure that it is connected on both ends and see if it is moving without binding and returning to the closed throttle position. If it is, try shortening the rod that comes off the carb about 1/16" and see what happens.

Dave Edwards will have the filter and gasket. His # is 781-449-2065.

[Poncho60]

stevep-

Thanks for the info. I was thinking that maybe I should change the fluid anyway. The car shows about 41K miles (thinking it may be actual), but I have no idea if the trans has ever been serviced. Other than this 1st gear thing, the trans doesn't leak a drop, and like I said seems to work decent otherwise. Any idea what DE charges for the filter?

[stevep]

He probably gets about $65.00 for the filter and gasket. The filter and gasket fit all 60 Pontiac, 61-64 Bonneville, Starchief, 60 Olds and 60-63 Caddy and 64 Series 62.

I think that his website is www.autotrans.com.

I buy a lot of parts from him.

[BigAquaBonney]

Well, today I FINALLY got my rebuilt SuperHydramatic hooked up to the 389 in my 64 Bonneville. For those that read this, it isn't scientific or technical, and I will never pretend to completely understand the SuperHydromatic or be an expert in any way, shape or form on transmissions. Anyway, it was awesome 2nd, 3rd, 4th gears. No fluid on the ground. No slipping. Rapid acceleration when I laid on it. Even still, 1st gear is just plain weird. I asked my mechanic of over 40 years of experience about it. We went for a ride in it. He described the 1st gear in these things as something of a granny gear. It quickly shifts from 1st to second on hard acceleration (almost unnoticably), but when driving slowly--like real slow (3-5 mph and then upward) it has a "feel" all of it's own. He told me that's just how they "feel." He said Dynaflows had that same "feel." He sort of smiled and said something like he almost forgot what these things are like. He reminded me that it wasn't a modern transmission, but he thought the design was a precursor to the big Allison's in garbage trucks and the like and was a solid, almost unbreakable, transmission. He said if I didn't like the "feel" I should have put a 200R4 in it. After all of the time and work that went into this to get everything just right, I have a feeling it is sort of just how they are.

[Jack Gifford]

Originally Posted by BigAquaBonney

... It quickly shifts from 1st to second on hard acceleration (almost unnoticably)...

I'm afraid I still don't understand the "weirdness" in first gear that the two of you refer to. But the "unnoticeable" 1-2 shift is familiar to me. To accomplish 1-2 and 3-4 shifts, the Dual-Coupling Hydramatics need to fill the small coupling with fluid. This obviously can never be done as quickly as bands/clutches can be applied/released. And in certain situations the coupling is intentionally not filled fast, which provides an "almost unnoticeable" shift.

(If you don't put the one shorter bolt in the right spot in the front pump, you'll always experience unnoticeable 1-2 and 3-4 shifts- ask me how I know!)

[stevep]

Originally Posted by BigAquaBonney

Well, today I FINALLY got my rebuilt SuperHydramatic hooked up to the 389 in my 64 Bonneville. For those that read this, it isn't scientific or technical, and I will never pretend to completely understand the SuperHydromatic or be an expert in any way, shape or form on transmissions. Anyway, it was awesome 2nd, 3rd, 4th gears. No fluid on the ground. No slipping. Rapid acceleration when I laid on it. Even still, 1st gear is just plain weird. I asked my mechanic of over 40 years of experience about it. We went for a ride in it. He described the 1st gear in these things as something of a granny gear. It quickly shifts from 1st to second on hard acceleration (almost unnoticably), but when driving slowly--like real slow (3-5 mph and then upward) it has a "feel" all of it's own. He told me that's just how they "feel." He said Dynaflows had that same "feel." He sort of smiled and said something like he almost forgot what these things are like. He reminded me that it wasn't a modern transmission, but he thought the design was a precursor to the big Allison's in garbage trucks and the like and was a solid, almost unbreakable, transmission. He said if I didn't like the "feel" I should have put a 200R4 in it. After all of the time and work that went into this to get everything just right, I have a feeling it is sort of just how they are.

If you bring the car to Norwalk, I can drive it and give you my opinion. It almost sounds as if the throttle pressure adjustment is not correct.

[BigAquaBonney]

Steve and Jack,

I can't make it to Norwalk, but wish I could--

I'd like to know about the shorter bolt solution in the pump and the throttle pressure adjustment solutions. The shift from 1st to 2nd is clearly (usually at slow speeds) not "unnoticable".

Thanks ahead of time for any insight you can offer.

-Mike

[stevep]

Mark the rod where it is and try shortening a few turns at a time and see if the shifting gets better. Also make sure that the linkage is connected at the trans.

In order to see if the short bolt is in the correct place, you have to remove and dismantle the trans.

[Poncho60]

I guess I am probably wrong, but I was under the impression that only the 3-4 shift was pretty much undetectable---or very smooth. I've always been able to notice the 1-2 shift. The description of 1st being like a granny gear seems accurate--you don't get very far before you're in 2nd. I suppose if you nail it that high low gear is impressive. Haven't really done that for about 45 years since I messed around with my folks 60 S-Chief. A kid in my class using his brother's 56 Chevy post w power pak got a big surprise one night---Pontiac torque ruled!

[weckwe]

Originally Posted by Poncho60

1st off, I haven't really dug into this yet other than being a little intimidated by the service manual, but here goes. The hydro in my 60 is erratic taking off in 1st gear. I don't really get on it, so maybe that's part of the problem. I see there are two linkage adjustments dealing with the trans----a TV adjustment, and a shift detent adjustment. Before I dig into these, I'm just wondering how much the engine state of tune effects
1st gear operation. Maybe I should go there first. Trans seems to work OK (?) otherwise----2nd, 3rd, 4th and the kickdown all seem OK. If I'm going to end up fooling with the linkage etc, I should probably use that as en excuse to convert to the 4 brl setup I've got waiting for the car. Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thx.

Poncho 60 I had a 55 pontiac with the hydro and I found out that the detent linkage ( TV), is extremly sensitive to a proper adjusment This particular setup had a linkage belcrank that was mounted on the back two bolts of the intake manifold . In that linkage was a provision for a 5/16 bolt to be used as a measuring tool . The car has to be completly warmed up and the idle speed had to be set at the correct RPM and then you would either shorten or lenthen the TV rod in order to make the 5/16 bolt slide in . If you were off any ammount you would get very sloppy and loose shifts . I found this hard to belive but it was true . If I remember right , the 1-2 shift is almost seamless , but, when it tries to grab 3rd gear it stumbled around a bit before it found 3rd gear . Pressing on the gas pedel l made it worse, getting the linkage properly adjusted made it shift like new Your linkage set up may be differ from the 55 but , the priciple is the same . Now, if you give up on your original two bbl. setup in place of a 4 bbl. you may never get dialed in . some automatics behave fine with the TV linkage removed . I know the 60's torqueflights will operate with out the TV linkage better than a maladusted linkage but , not the Pontiac . Hope this helps ya ... Wayne

[stevep]

If you run a Torquefliite or a Hydro with out the linkage, you will burn it up as the linkage raises pressure based on throttle opening. Wirthout the linkage connected, line pressure will stay at minimum.

The Super Hydro fills the coupling on the 1-2 and 3-4 shift. This is why the those shifts are so smooth. That was actually the reason for the coupling as GM had a ton of complaints about the shift shock on the original Hydro, so when they redesigned the trans, they replaced the front clutch/band setup with the coupling and a sprag.

Wayne, you are right on the money about the linkage adjustment.

[Poncho60]

Thanks for all the feedback. I have the service manuals and did run across the adjustment info the other night. The 4 brl setup I have for the car is all stock Poncho, so should be no problems there----trans linkage basically stays the same. I'm sort of leaning toward tuning up the engine a little first before I get into the linkage adj.

[stevep]

If you drive your car at at minimum throttle, the 1-2 shift should be around 10 mph, the 2-3 should be around 18 mph and the 3-4 should be around 25 mph. I tried it in my 60 today and actually paid attention to see if I would be correct and that is about where it is.

Do tune the engine 1st.

[Poncho60]

OK, so I have case of the stupids (old age I guess). Haven't done a thing as of yet, but took the car out for a spin tonight. I guess the shift I was wondering about is the 2-3 shift-----not the 1-2 shift. You are right, 1-2 is almost unnoticeable. I tried to see what MPH I was at for the shift points at more or less min throttle. I got the following results--

1-2 around 9/10 mph
2-3 around 15 mph
3-4 maybe 20-22

Then I got real smart and actually looked in the manual which has the following specs at min throttle

1-2................4-9mph
2-3................11-15mph
3-4................17-20

Just as added info the full throttle shift points are

1-2...............11-15mph
2-3...............35-40mph
3-4...............65-75mph

Guess I better get after that tune-up.

thx again for all the feedback!

[stevep]

Shorten the rod a little, which will make the shifts a little later and you will see a big difference.