[1978 T/A]

I have an LS2 in my 06 GTO and it has never given me a single problem. I am sorry to hear that you have had bum luck with your T/A, but that does not mean that the LS motors are junk IMO.

[b-man]

Originally Posted by goquick

And for your 6200 I can build a Pontiac that will make more power and get just as good of mpg. Plus he wouldn't have to spend another 2770 just to try to get it in the car. pLUS UNLIKE WHAT YOU had TO DO he wouldn't have to spend the money for a transmission, extra money for an over rated efi (actuly an inferior system to a well prepped carb) But my combo would use an iron block, (factory production piece) and alum. heads. Now if you think the l;s3 is a great engine, then whatever, but I've built a couple of them and driven the cars they are in and frankly, I am not at all impressed with them.

Your iron block engine is too heavy and will out-weigh the aluminum block LS3 by an easy 150#.

The fact that I wanted to knock a lot of weight off the front end of my car was a big factor, I want it to turn corners. Plus since my LS3 weighs less means it has a power advantage right there, it won't need to haul another 150# around even in a straight line.

Your 450 - 470 HP Pontiac engine (the LS3 easily makes these numbers with just headers) without EFI won't pull down consistent highway mileage numbers even close to 25 MPG.

So you can't build a Pontiac engine for even close to the same money that will do what the LS3 can do. Neither could I, that's why I chose the LS3.

The thing you can never do for any reasonable cost is make it weigh around 400# fully-dressed, let's not pretend that doesn't matter.

Very lightweight, EFI, fuel efficient, factory 24 month/24K mile warranty.

[goquick]

Originally Posted by 1978 T/A

I have an LS2 in my 06 GTO and it has never given me a single problem. I am sorry to hear that you have had bum luck with your T/A, but that does not mean that the LS motors are junk IMO.

It's not mine. It's my Sister in laws. She doesn't even get on the go pedal. She just likes to "look' cool. 84,000 miles and kicked the rod. Like I said, I'm not impressed with them. I see the idiots at the track with them, and all of them run about the same, which is alot less than you see printed in magazines. Not until they spend 3k+ do they start perfoming like anything at all. Like I said, for all the wasted money on these engines, a guy would save money putting his Pontiac back in the car and have a car that would perform just as well.

[b-man]

When you can build up a 400-pound Pontiac engine for less $ than the LS3 sells for then please by all means let us all know.

Having a very lightweight engine over the front wheels is important to some of us who like to turn corners fast as well as accelerate quickly.

[goquick]

I'll concede that all you really wanted was a lightweight engine. And that is all you got. As for the LS3 making that kind of power, prove it in the vehicles performance. I have a friend that has put the ls4 stuff on his z28, and frankly, it's better than the ls3 he had, but it still isn't impressive to me. so it's a 17 mpg 12.50 car and thats it.

[b-man]

Originally Posted by goquick

I'll concede that all you really wanted was a lightweight engine. And that is all you got. As for the LS3 making that kind of power, prove it in the vehicles performance. I have a friend that has put the ls4 stuff on his z28, and frankly, it's better than the ls3 he had, but it still isn't impressive to me. so it's a 17 mpg 12.50 car and thats it.

So you can't build a Pontiac engine that is both as lightweight and powerful as the LS3 for the same money.

I knew that.

So did you.

[fbrown]

Boy what a heated bash session. Many posts occured while I was typing this.


I also had a LS2 06 GTO. I never had any problems with it. It was the fastest stock car that I have ever owned and it also got great gas mileage. I got around 18MGP city and 25 MPG interstate at 75MPH. Turn the key and it cranked immediately even in 15 degree weather and it would drive away immediately, no need to warm it up like you do with a engine with a carb. My 77 Cadillac has a 512 CID engine and after it sits for a week, the fuel evaporates from the carb, it take a bit of cranking to get it to start and when it does it doesn't want to pull any load (put it in gear) until you idle it for a while. I'm probably only getting 10MPG in this beast and due to its bad drivability I don't drive it much. I have about 10K in the Cadillac engine and I sure wish I have converted to a LS series of engine. My car prior to the 06 GTO was a 94 Cadillac Fleetwood with a LT1 engine. I started out with a 375 HP crate engine but making a long story short I ended up with a 440HP crate engine. This car would blow the 06 GTO away any also got 22-24MPG highway, for comparison I got 28MPG highway with the stock Fleetwood engine.

I guess the 99 ls1 sitting in my driveway with the rod hanging out and it never seen 5500 rpm isn't a pos?

Any make of engine can have problems. I guess nobody remembers Pontiac's 69 engine problems, they used nylon covered timing chain gears that wore out at 30 to 40K miles and if you were lucky, it just jumped a tooth; if you were unlucky you bent valves. In any event any make of engine can have problems; it doesn’t make them all bad. I have owned 5 LT1 powered cars and the engine in one of them failed at 95K miles. Most LT1's will last to 200k and beyond, the fact that some of them don't, doesn't make them a POS. BTW my 96 Roadmaster wagon has 160K miles and is still going strong.


GM has spent millions developing the LS series and engines and there is no way to match the reliability and drivability and cost of a stock LS3 crate engine. I will concede that you can make just as much HP from a Pontiac engine, but the drivability will not be the same. As far as cost is concerned, I have about 9K in the engine, ECM and gas tank. This is the only cost that relates to a conversion to a LS3, other items would have to be purchased for either a Pontiac or LS3 engine. In my case the Lemans didn't have a engine to begin with. So other components such a transmission, radiator, etc would have to be purchased either way. The LS3 cranks first turn of the key and idles very smoothly. If you want a rough idle you will be disappointed. The Corvette LS3 engine has been dynoed by GM High Tech and Mast and both sources shows the engine to produces right at 500HP through headers and with no emissions equipment.

It would certainly be possible to do a similar swap for much less if you were to use junk yard parts, GTO engine pulls can be had for about $2000, including the transmission and ECM. I used the higher cost crate engine because I wanted a NEW engine, and I bought the ECM from Spearco since I didn't want to fool with modify a harness. I certainly have the talent to modify one; I just don't want to do it. The selection of parts paid off since the engine immediately fired first turn of the key. I didn't have any troubleshooting to do.

I will sum up this by saying a classic car should be driven, not something that sits in your garage to only be driven a few hundred miles per year. This goal will require changes to be made to the engine/drivetrain. In order to get decent gas mileage, you will have to have a Overdrive transmission. The choice of engine doesn't matter as long as you have EFI and don't go too wild on engine specs. Even EFI won't help a 700HP engine get 20 mpg. My choice of engine was a LS3 since it is a brand new engine with a warranty. I'm not suggesting that a LS series of engine is the only way to achieve these goals but it will be one of the easier ones. I don't desire to spend months dialing in a one of a kind EFI on a Pontiac (or even my 77 Cadillac); I want to be enjoying my cars by driving them. If you feel that EFI on a Pontiac engine is what you want, then by all means go for it. I'm certainly not saying a LS engine swap is the only way achieves these goals. As far as EFI on a Pontiac engine, I have yet to see any build threads with someone doing this.

There is plenty of room to support all engine combinations and variations and viewpoints. There is no need to bash anyone because of their choice, simply state you reasons and be done with it, nobody is going the change their project because someone else doesn't like it.

[fbrown]

What are you going to do about the A/C issue?

You're car is going to be sick when it is done.

I will use one of the aftermarket systems, I have not decided which one. I'm only aware of Vintage and Classic for in-dash systems.

[goquick]

Originally Posted by b-man

So you can't build a Pontiac engine that is both as lightweight and powerful as the LS3 for the same money.

I knew that.

So did you.

BMan, I can make MORE power than the ls3 pos for less money.

[72LuxuryLeMansLa.]

Originally Posted by goquick

Where and who have you been getting the prices from? Bet it's cheaper than that pos chevy crate engine unless someone is trying to rob you. I can build it for you andsave you some $

As I said; I am new to Pontiacs. If you would be so kind as to help me formulate a plan for an engine, I would be very grateful.
I have a stock (except for performer manifold and '74 Q-Jet) 1972 350cubic inch with 7h1 heads and dual exhaust. The transmission is a th350 that I will replace with a 200-4r and the rear gears are 2.78:1 . I will not use this car on a drag strip! Peak HP is of no major concern. Making great power from idle through 4000 rpm is more my concern.

Since this is the original block, I do not want to bore it any more than necessary to clean the block up. I would appreciate a list of parts that you would use to get this motor to around 400hp/400ft. lbs. of torque. Also retail sources for these parts would be great.

Thanks, Karl

[b-man]

Originally Posted by 72LuxuryLeMansLa.

As I said; I am new to Pontiacs. If you would be so kind as to help me formulate a plan for an engine, I would be very grateful.
I have a stock (except for performer manifold and '74 Q-Jet) 1972 350cubic inch with 7h1 heads and dual exhaust. The transmission is a th350 that I will replace with a 200-4r and the rear gears are 2.78:1 . I will not use this car on a drag strip! Peak HP is of no major concern. Making great power from idle through 4000 rpm is more my concern.

Since this is the original block, I do not want to bore it any more than necessary to clean the block up. I would appreciate a list of parts that you would use to get this motor to around 400hp/400ft. lbs. of torque. Also retail sources for these parts would be great.

Thanks, Karl

If you'd like advice on this then please take it to PMs, respect the thread starter and please don't hijack this thread. We have already wavered off-topic enough.

Originally Posted by goquick

BMan, I can make MORE power than the ls3 pos for less money.

Until you can build a Pontiac V8 engine that makes the same power and is as lightweight as the LS3 for the same cost none of that matters in the least.

Your opinion of the LS3 swap going on here was never asked for by the thread starter. This thread as well as mine was started to share the progress of a buildup that some PY members might be interested in.

As a matter of fact this particular subforum was created by the PY administrators in order to help others with their non-Pontiac engine swaps as well as Pontiac engines in non-Pontiacs, so now I'm asking you to respect the wishes of the PY admins.

You've more than had your 2 cents, so now I'm asking you to leave this thread and others like it inside this subforum alone.

[goquick]

Bman, if you look, my post was in response to someone else's question/statement about what he' is looking to do to his Pontiac and really seemed like he might be getting screwed on pricing if he did a true Pontiac engine. Then your egging it on to now turn around and act like it is all my doing that we are still posting concerning my opinion of people messing up their Pontiacs and turning them into general messes. This will be my last post in this thread, even if asked by others to respond, is that respectful enough for you? And as for as powerful as the LS3? Easy to beat with even the 350 Pontiac for less $$$.

[6 Grrrs]

Mr goquick:

I am a Pontiac purist myself & do not usually condone the installation of non Pontiac motors in Pontiacs. I just want you to know that before I go on.

You can bash the LSx all you want for it being a POS, but there are a whole lot more LSx engines out there than the one 'POS' in your driveway. I personally know many people locally here in the Pittsburgh area with some pretty stout LSx motors in fbuckets & trucks, as well as installed in classic Chevelles, Camaros, & Novas. I even installed one in a 1990 Chevy 454SS truck like the one in my sig (different truck though). Future plans for my truck may include a LSx series motor with twin turbos on it.

The one I did was a completely stock 325hp '99 Camaro LS1 with a 4L60e (both had 28k miles on them). It had headers & 3" exhaust & 3.73 gears. My truck when stock ran a 16.1 in the 1/4 with a severely smogged 454/TH400/3.73's and it got 8 mpg whether it was on the highway or around town. It was a pig to say the least. This other truck that I did the swap into was lowered (bagged) and had 20" front & 22" rear wheels (hurt 1/4 mile performance). It ran 14.1 in the 1/4 (only one pass ever at a track in 98 degree weather) & consistently got 18-20mpg. Two seconds faster & more than double the mileage with nothing more than Headers & exhaust. The truck literally had the snot beat out of it every time it was driven. He did donuts & burnouts literally every time he drove it. We had it on a road course, hammered it, drifted it, & ran it to redline just about the whole time and 40-50 laps. It was street raced at just about every stoplight. This motor was abused every chance it could be. I'll bet the oil was changed twice, maybe three times in the 80k miles that was put on it. It never broke, it never even hiccupped. He sold the truck & as far as I know the guy is still driving it with no problems.

Many people have similar stories about the LSx motors. Hell a guy here has a pickup with a 4.8 that makes 702 whp (turboed). Another guy has a daily driven Camaro with 550 whp and drives it daily, whether in the winter or summer. Another guy has a '72 Chevelle with a 408ci LSx that makes 480whp and runs high 10s in the 1/4. I owned a 2004 GTO with an LS1/T56 & I loved the motor. It reminded me of a Pontiac motor with the low end grunt.

If these guys want to build LSx powered Pontiacs -- who cares. It's not like they are ruining an original '64 GTO or even a factory Judge, they started life as lowly Tempests that are getting a new lease on life (no offense to Bart & Fbrown about your cars). I personally think they are both great builds. My GTO is stock & I find a lot to be desired when driving it (funny how the older guys think the '60's was when real musclecars were built, yet most 'real' musclecars won't hold a candlestick to the performance of Modern Performance Cars). These cars are not Chevelles, they are Pontiacs with GM motors. Would you rather they put Ford motors in them???

I would never put an LSx in my 63K mile real Tripower GTO, but I know it would be a whole lot more fun to drive. I would start with a Tempest or LeMans and go the route these guys are going.

I find it tough to believe a 82k mile car that was never abused has a rod hanging out the side of the block, regardless what kind of motor it is. My guess is she ran it out of oil or something. Engine failures do happen & I'm not trying to say the LSx is the greatest engine out there. It is one of the most capable, though.

I too would like to see the buildup of a reliable, powerful, lightweight Pontiac motor for less than $6200. I'll build one for my GTO in a heartbeat. Right now I'm looking to build a stout 447ci stroker (based on my '66 389 block) for about the same money (best of everything though isn't cheap). I know I could build it cheaper, but may sacrifice reliability.

Please quit pissing on these threads. Go join a Chevy or Ford forum a bash their stuff.

[FLYNLOW]

Originally Posted by goquick

I'll concede that all you really wanted was a lightweight engine. And that is all you got. As for the LS3 making that kind of power, prove it in the vehicles performance. I have a friend that has put the ls4 stuff on his z28, and frankly, it's better than the ls3 he had, but it still isn't impressive to me. so it's a 17 mpg 12.50 car and thats it.

What? He put LS4 heads on a motor that used to have LS3 heads (so...it'd be a 4" bore motor or bigger) and its better? WHAT?! Do you even know what your talking about (judging from most of your posts, I think the answer is evident)? That's like taking RA4 heads off a Pontiac and installing some old 670's on it.

My motor isn't even in the same league as an LS3 and I'd put it up against anyone's Pontiac motor, give it to an independant testing agency and let them hash out the overall drivability of the car and the performance presented, and for giggles, we'll throw in cost. I mean c'mon, what is your problem? And who in the world drives a 99 Z28/T/A or Vette and has never driven it past 5500RPM? The automatic doesn't even shift yet, so your sayng it was never ever floored?

Anyway, theres something wrong with your buddies car, which is no big surprise if he can't even figure his heads out.

::shrug:: 13.0's, 112 traps, 3.08's with a stick, full creature comforts, and 25MPG. Yea, I can't drive.

[1978 T/A]

Originally Posted by fbrown

I will use one of the aftermarket systems, I have not decided which one. I'm only aware of Vintage and Classic for in-dash systems.

Do you think with the BRP motor mounts you would have been able to retain the factor A/C?

[fbrown]

The BRP mounts allow you to shift the engine as need be, BRP doesn't use the existing frame holes and requires you to mark and drill holes after deciding where you want to place the engine. The BRP mounts also place the engine higher so you can use a GM oil pan (LH8 I think). But the GM oil pan still hangs below the crossmember. The Edelbrock mounts keeps the back of a LS engine is the same place as a Pontiac engine, so you could bolt a Chevy 350/400 transmission in with no crossmember changes.

To answer you question, you probably could keep the factory AC with the BRP mounts, by placing the engine farther forward. BRP also claims you can move the engine far enough forward so the AC compressor can be kept in the stock location without having to notch the frame.

I have the BRP engine mounts and crossmember and it’s for sale cheap if anyone wants to buy it.

[blue goats]

Bart and Fbrown,
This might sound like a stupid question but I'm going to ask it anyway. Can you put the 04-06 plastic GTO covers on the LS-3 with out any mods to them?

[fbrown]

I don't know if the GTO Fuel Rail Cover will fit. It's something I should have tried before I sold my 06 GTO about a month ago.

[fbrown]

This might sound like a stupid question but I'm going to ask it anyway. Can you put the 04-06 plastic GTO covers on the LS-3 with out any mods to them?

From photos it looks like the fuel line enters in the back for the GTO covers and the side for the Corvette covers. So it looks like you would need to modify the fuel rail fuel intake line to use the GTO covers,

Project updates:

Installing outer-wheel well portions for the rusted out junk. This is taking a lot of time, however I am nearing completeion. I plan to epoxy prime the inner structure and spray it with lizard skin before installing the quarters.

Passenger side complete with thin layer of metal to metal over the weld. I also coated the under side of the weld with metal to metal.



Driver side as welded.



Driver side with weld smoothed.



Patch panels came in for the fenders.

[blue goats]

Won't the lizzard skin catch on fire when your welding ww to q-panel. I think I would use weld primer or cold galvanizing paint instead JMHO.