[68MeanVerdoroGreen]

Fellow Forum Members,

Over the last 25 years I've owned 4 GTO's. Currenly I have a 68 Hardtop that I just completed restoration, and rebuilding the engine for my 69. I've always loved the 69 Judges and was seriously thinking of selling both my 68 & 69 to fund the purchase of such a car. A convertible would be the ultimate, but of course totally out of my price range for such a rare vehicle. Since I own a very nice and highly optioned Palladium Silver GTO I'm considering cloning it into the Judge a really want. I know many look down on doing such a thing, but the reality is I can have my Judge and won't have to sell both my classic GTO's to buy what I really want. My car is rust free, numbers matching drive train and has many options such as Power steering, disc brakes, windows, trunk lock, along with remote mirror, hood tach, cornering lamps, AM/FM radio, and a sport wheel. An excellent car in my opion to clone since the striping will really make a silver car stand out. Im thinking that if I change my mind down the road or sell the car, a conversion should be easy back to original. Over the years the members of this forum have been very helpful assisting me with repairs and advise. Your experiences and opinions are valued so let me know what your think.

[68MeanVerdoroGreen]

Fellow Forum Members,

Over the last 25 years I've owned 4 GTO's. Currenly I have a 68 Hardtop that I just completed restoration, and rebuilding the engine for my 69. I've always loved the 69 Judges and was seriously thinking of selling both my 68 & 69 to fund the purchase of such a car. A convertible would be the ultimate, but of course totally out of my price range for such a rare vehicle. Since I own a very nice and highly optioned Palladium Silver GTO I'm considering cloning it into the Judge a really want. I know many look down on doing such a thing, but the reality is I can have my Judge and won't have to sell both my classic GTO's to buy what I really want. My car is rust free, numbers matching drive train and has many options such as Power steering, disc brakes, windows, trunk lock, along with remote mirror, hood tach, cornering lamps, AM/FM radio, and a sport wheel. An excellent car in my opion to clone since the striping will really make a silver car stand out. Im thinking that if I change my mind down the road or sell the car, a conversion should be easy back to original. Over the years the members of this forum have been very helpful assisting me with repairs and advise. Your experiences and opinions are valued so let me know what your think.

[David Jones]

Larry, personally I wouldn't do it. But thats me. When I finally get around to painting mine I'm going back just like it is, Verdoro Green. BUT. That silver one is your car. If you want some Judge stripes on it and a sticker on the glove box, go for it. If it trips your trigger is the only thing you need to think about. Just be prepared to explain what it is because people will ask. I'll bet a dozen people have asked me if mine was a "real" GTO or "just" a Lemans. Bottom line, enjoy it like you want to..........

[Andre]

I did it because my '69 was just a little drab.. green with a white top. I didn't do all the ram air components however.
The stripes seem to give the body a better appearance

[bhonsberger]

Larry,
I love your GTO as it is, but the Judge stripes on silver would be striking and uncommon. I would modify away. Even though I own a Judge, I can't remember how low the fron decal is placed. I think your cornering lamps will interfere.
bah

[68MeanVerdoroGreen]

Bah,

Good point regarding the cornering lamps. I'll have to spend some time searching for pictures with both(if such a car exists). I appreciate the input so far. Anybody else aver clone a 69? How was it received by other owners and any impact on the car show scene.

Thanks,

[David Jones]

http://ultimategto.com/carshows/gtoaa04/69jk016_1.jpg
Go to ultimategto.com/ and click dream car search. Load your preferences. There are pictures of the combo.

[pontiac6269]

From looking at pictures of 69 Judges, the front decal will be above the cornering lamp.

[Andre]

I have not taken my 69 clone to that many Pontiac only shows. It mostly goes to cruise nights and local shows that have everything from Model A's to 04 GTO's.

It's a bench seat, column shift car, so if was a real judge, I'm sure there would be some disbelief.

I have my trim rings on the rally II wheels, and no ram air stuff, so once the hood is open, it's a dead giveaway, but at most local shows where the audience are non Pontiac people, I don't get any questions.

I did overhear one father tell his son that it was definitely not a real Judge, as all Judges were orange. Who am I to argue....

[gtohurstjudge]

I feel I am probably qualified to weigh in on this subject since I made my 69 GTO convertible
into a JUDGE convertible 30 years ago and I still own it! My car is pretty much strictly show now because I overrestored it and made it too much too nice to drive. For many years I
drove it every day as a Judge convertible.One
interesting facet about this discussion is that
nobody ever asked or cared if my car was real or not until about 1990. Since then it has become a major issue at national shows and this
seems to become more true as time goes by. My
personal contention has always been that it is an option like hideaway headlights or disc brakes. Many people lately however have strong
feelings about making a regular GTO into a Judge and I respect their viewpoint as well as my own. The reason this has become such a hot
button of contention is that the difference in
value dollarwise between a real Judge and a clone gets larger every year. When i made my convertible into a Judge in 1974, I doubt that
there would have been 1000 dollars difference
between a real Judge convertible and a replica.
In my case today with the condition my car is in and the options it has, the difference in
value has probably balooned to 140,000 dollars!
I can understand whey someone who has 150,000
dollars tied up in a real Judge convertible
would get upset when my car wins best of show and I can't say I blame them. In my case, I have added Hurst wheels and a hurst Dualgate
and a 455 to an otherwise stock restoration and
that helps because I can show my car in modified classes and the guys with real ones
can show in the Judge class. Since 1974 I have
never tried to pass my car off as a real judge
to anyone who asks, and believe me they do ask! My advice to you is as follows...If you just want to drive your car and have fun with it and
go to local cruises and shows nobody will ask if your car is real and nobody will care, and
you will enjoy the extra pizzazz of the stripes,
ram air and spoiler. If however you plan to build a seriously nice car and show it at POCI and GTOAA conventions, be prepared to receive
some major flak from time to time! By all means
if you are going to go to car shows and compete with it, add some mag wheels to put it
into modified to keep the guys with their stock real judges happy. Under no circumstances should you lie about the car's true idientity
if asked, and under no circumstances should you attempt to put your car in a "JUDGE" class at
a national show! Your car is not a real Judge
and does not belong in these classes! As long as
you follow the ground rules mentioned above, you
will enjoy driving a Judge clone! I have enjoyed
my car immensely over the last 34 years of ownership and have no regrets about what I did
then or now.

[68MeanVerdoroGreen]

gtohurstjudge,

Great information and believe your comments are right on the money. Thank you for taking the time to respond. Since you've completed what I'm thinking of doing your comments along with all those that responed are appreciated. I will pursue my cloning idea and keep both of my GTO's and enjoy them. As much as I'd like to have the real thing, I don't think I'd enjoy it as much because of the value the real deal is worth these days. When I first got into cars I owned a very nice low mileage stock convertible Corvette the was gourgeous. I sold it to buy another vette and my 68 goat because it was too nice to drive. My 69 is also very and nice original with only one repaint about 8 years ago. All metal and interior was never replaced and is currently undergoing an engine rebuilt due to a spun bearing and poor oil pressure. My modifications are something that can't be changed back in the future if I decide to go that route. In the mean time I'll enjoy driving it as the judge I never had (so far).


Regards,

[kaysersuzuki]

i say its your car,do what you want,i dont plan on ever selling my 69 convert so i painted it my color,ke bright blue a ford color,looks great on the car and i get a lot of compliments on it,it was originally green,too many green gto's out there now.
i wanted something different and "did it my way"

[peppergreen]

An idea would be to totally do up the silver 69 as a Judge--Ram Air3-4,spoiler,etc...but apply the stripes and leave the Judge stickers off. I've seen a few 70's like this and it looks great.

Then you'll really have people wonderin'

[1-GTO]

In 1977 I bought a '69 GTO that was originally a Paladium Silver color and was re-painted a tired looking Plymouth Red,in 1980 I repainted my 1969 GTO Candy-Apple Red Emron,put an original '69 Judge spoiler on it and took all the Ram Air pans and glove box emblem off a totaled '69 Judge I bought and added the stripes and Judge decals to it.I've never tried to pawn it off as a real Factory Judge and always told anyone who asked the truth about my car...I loved the looks of the Judges and its what I liked.....forward to 2004.I plan on taking all the Judge parts off my '69 GTO and go back to making it a GTO and putting the parts on a PHS documented Carousel Red '69 Judge I have to restore.

As nice and original as your '69 GTO looks I would not change it into a Judge!I would buy another 1969 GTO or '69 LeMans and Clone it into a Judge!You always be saying..."No its not a Factory Judge" to anyone who ask.If your not worried about those questions then change it to a JUDGE and enjoy the looks you'll get with it.

[Judge273]

My humble opinion is that you take cloning to the full extreme or don't mess with a good GTO. For example start with a 71 455 HO ram air, add the wing, stripes, decals, authentic glovebox emblem. Have the original glovebox for the next owner, and they could bring it back if they want. Nothing worse than a 71 Judge with a 400 non ram air. Even when you sell it your selling what could of easily been "Judged" at the factory or dealership.

[slowgto]

I would start off with just the stripes, without "The Judge" lettering. The stripes will really add some color to the car and show off the curve of the front fenders.

The rear spoilers are sharp and tastefull.

[jeffnel65]

I am also considering doing a Judge clone but would be starting with a frame off restored documented original 69 gto convertible. I can buy the car for 25k but is not really the color combo I want. However, it would look cool as a Judge convertible. It is matador red with black interior and top. Any oinions yes or no greatly appreciated. What is a real gto convertible worth if you add a Judge package?

[taximan]

Depends on what floats your boat about your car. If you like the look of the Judge and don't care about originality and numbers... go for it.

I was originally looking for a perfectly done clone, but stumbled on a close to perfect original Judge hrdtp, with 98% of the car correct or original, including the docs. So I changed course.

I'll bring mine to the meeting next month and you can check it out

[gtohurstjudge]

The stripes and spoiler really won't add any value to the car. but adding all the correct ram air goodies that are part of the package should increase the value somewhat. The main thing is if you are going to make it a judge,
do it correctly and make it nice. Adding to the value of the car is not the reason to do it.
You should do it because you want to have a Judge convertible without spending 150,000 dollars! I guarantee you that the Judge convertible clone is more fun to own! It is impossible to enjoy driving a 150,000 dollar
car. Every waking moment you are afraid that something will happen to it! If you spot one on the showfield, it will likely have an armed guard watching it and it will have a barricade around it so no one can get too close! As soon
as the judging is over, the car will be right
back in its enclosed trailer! To some of the
wealthy car enthusiasts who like to buy their cars at auction in Scotsdale, adding the Judge
package may actually lower the value! To them
having a Judge clone is liking having a trophy
wife with artificial cleavage! GTOHURSTJUDGE