[David Jones]

My car has according to the number stamped up on the front of the block a matching numbers engine. While my heads are down being cleaned up and a cam ordered, I'm doing some clean-up/detail work. I just cleaned and painted the area around where the distributor sits and can now clearly see what numbers are cast in the block back there. 9799914 with a big ole 70 also. That makes it a 1970 block. What a drag. Does this kill my numbers matching? The block cast date is F259, which if I read this correctly is June 25 1969. My car was made on August 19 1969. Could this block still be numbers matching? As I said the stamped in code on the front of the block matches.

[David Jones]

My car has according to the number stamped up on the front of the block a matching numbers engine. While my heads are down being cleaned up and a cam ordered, I'm doing some clean-up/detail work. I just cleaned and painted the area around where the distributor sits and can now clearly see what numbers are cast in the block back there. 9799914 with a big ole 70 also. That makes it a 1970 block. What a drag. Does this kill my numbers matching? The block cast date is F259, which if I read this correctly is June 25 1969. My car was made on August 19 1969. Could this block still be numbers matching? As I said the stamped in code on the front of the block matches.

[68alpinebluegto]

That is only about 6 weeks. That is well within any ones time frames.

[b-man]

David,

With your car being a '69 model the block should have the car's actual VIN# stamped into it. The first few numbers won't be there, but all of the ones ending the sequence will be.

Look on the block, right behind the lower radiator hose outlet of the timing cover. It is stamped vertically on the block right next to the timing cover gasket.

You won't be able to see the numbers well enough to read them unless you remove the timing cover. You probably already removed it to replace your flat cam.

There is likely some thick paint or grime filling in the numbers that will obscure them as well.

If the VIN# on the block doesn't match, it has been replaced.

I have a '69 4-speed 400 Firebird with the standard 330 HP WZ code 400. I found the VIN# on the block that matched the dash VIN tag.

Lucky me.

Hopefully you'll be just as lucky.

[David Jones]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">My car has according to the number stamped up on the front of the block a matching numbers engine. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">As I said the stamped in code on the front of the block matches. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

As I said, the numbers on the front of the block and the VIN # do match. My question is the cast in numbers on the back of the block say its a 1970 block cast on June 25, 1969. Could that 1970 block have been put in a 1969 model car made on August 19, 1969?

[johnta1]

I know the Firebirds could have the 70 block in the 69 Firebird because of the split year for them.

I also know a guy who had a 69 GTO with a WT 1970 engine like yours.

So, I would say it's number matching.

[gtoric]

IMO, strange things happened at model changeover time. Your car was built very late in the '69 model year and falls into that changeover "twilight zone." Since the block was cast before your car was assembled, and it has the correct V.I.N. stamped on it, I'd tend to think that it is a correct match.

[b-man]

Your first post:

My car has according to the number stamped up on the front of the block a matching numbers engine.

As I said the stamped in code on the front of the block matches.

Your second post:

As I said, the numbers on the front of the block and the VIN # do match.

In your first post you never made it clear that you had matched the VIN on the block to the VIN on the car.

With a matching VIN on the car and block why would you doubt that the engine was original? The block was cast early enough to have been installed originally.

[Alex]

David,
How did you determine the build date of Aug 19, '69 ? PHS, Trim tag? Just wondering.
As gtoric said that's really late in the model year. I thought they would be building '70's at that time
I always remember the Next model year to be in the dealerships sometime in Sept. Figure they would have to start building them in late july, early aug. at the latest.
Like I said this post has me wondering, BUT in any case beginning in 1968, Pontiac stamped the Vehicle ID number, consisting of the figure 2 followed by the last eight digets of the car serial number, into a machined pad on the RH front of the block ... Al

[goathead68]

David,

It's sorta weird that your car was built that late as a '69 model. The part number you list, 9799914, is for a '70-model year 400 block.

I always thought that model year production would have ended some time before your car was built, like mid or late July, as Al has stated.

It'd be interesting to find out when your car was actually delivered to a dealership.

What are the casting dates and part numbers on the heads and intake?

Al, you can find the month and week the car was built by looking at the trim tag on the cowl. There will be a number followed by a letter. My code is 10D, which means my car was built the fourth week (D) of October (10). This corresponds to the billing date for my car, which was Nov. 1, 1967. My car is a relatively early production '68.

[goathead68]

David,

One more thing. Check and see if the motor number (above the engine letter code) corresponds to your build sheet, if you have one. That'd help confirm things, one way or the other.

[Greg Reid]

That motor series number below the two letter engine code is also stated on the PHS docs.
The number in the photo below is on my PHS document labeled "Engine Unit Number".
I'd be confident with what you already have but if you're worried, check your PHS for that unit number.

[David Jones]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> My car has according to the number stamped up on the front of the block a matching numbers engine.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bman, I wasn't talking about my engine matching someone elses VIN.

I was doubting that it matched because its a 70 block. I realize on the assembly line almost anything could have happened. I simply wanted someone to say something like "yes that 70 block could have made it into a 69 car on the assembly line" Numbers have been restamped before. Sorry you missinterpereted what seemed fairly plain when I typed it.

Alex, the PHS data I have show the build date as 8/19/69. I also would have thought they needed more model change lead time, BUT....thats what the papers say.

The papers say the car was shipped on 8/25/69. On my trim tag the numbers you mention as a build date are 07D. 4th week of July. My heads are down at Pontiac Dudes, so I can't get dates off of them. They are #48's. This makes them supposedly not original to the car, which is a A/C automatic 350 horse car. They are correct for a 69 but not my model. I think mine was supposed to have 62's on it. But who knows? The intake, #9794234 (correct #) has a date code of K048. November 4 1968. Maybe I have the original block and some other parts from a 1969 donor car? I did find out in chasing the rear end codes sometime back that the code on mine was for a 3.55 geared posi equipped 1969 car. My car originally had a 3.23 peg leg. (again A/C auto car). I'm the third owner. I wish I could locate the others, but have been unable to.

[68alpinebluegto]

I have a 68 lemans that has a broadcast date of 7/23/68. Very late in the model year. On the bottom of the Broadcast sheet it says
"INSERT BODY IN STORAGE".

My 68 HO GTO has a build code of 10C with a broadcast date of 10/23/67.
My body Number is 1573 how about that for early!



A friend of mine has a 70 Judge Conv. with a build date of 10A and a broadcast date of 10/14/69. (the earliest 70 Judge Conv I have seen or heard about)

[goathead68]

jagjr,

My body number is 277! It is a convertible, tho.

David,

Anything is possible. The engine could have had work done on it which required changing the heads and intake. Same with the rear end. The key, tho, is the motor number and the VIN stamped on the block. If those numbers match the PHS docs, and you say they do, then I'd say that your car still has the original block. I doubt someone would have gone through the trouble to restamp the block if they left the incorrect dated intake and different heads on the engine.

Plus, the casting date of the block and build date of your car fit in that 4 to 6 week window. Your car, because it was built so late in the model year, could very well have a super early casted '70 part numbered block in it.

Your car has an interesting parts history. Too bad it's so hard to confirm.

[David Jones]

I've got a feeler out with a friend of mine who might be able to hook me up with the 2nd owner. Its been a while, but I'm going to keep trying.

[David Jones]

I think I'm looking at this PHS stuff all wrong, in respect to "build date". My PHS invoice has a date at the top of 8/19/69. It also has a "date shipped" of 8/19/69 at the bottom. Obviously they had to build it at some point prior to shipping it? I have the "1969 Car Building Order" that I found on top of the gas tank, that I neglected to think about. It has a row at the top that notes a "B'cast Date" of 07/10 which must be July 10th? (genious, right? ) How close to the printing of the build sheet did they build the car? This makes it work out more like the info off the data tag of 4th week of July.

[Jerry H.]

As others have posted, does your engine production # on the front of the block match the 'engine unit #' on your PHS paper work?

[David Jones]

Jerry, the numbers match. VIN#, block stamping and paperwork.

[Greg Reid]

If the VIN matches and the engine unit number matches, I can't see how under any stretch of the imagination your car is not a matching numbers car.
How would anyone even know the engine unit number to fake even if they wanted to? Unless they had the PHS docs to get it from. That's the only place the engine number and the VIN info come together.
All that is pretty wild conjecture though I think. What would be the motive to go through so much unless your car is a Ram Air V or something?

BTW, my car is matching numbers except for two things and I can't understand the reason for changing them. The intake is a '69 intake and the rear end is an Oldsmobile 2.93 or so open rear end.
Why swap just the rearend and the intake? And for parts that are just run of the mill?
If these things could only talk....