[Vascar]

1.)What kind of rings should be used if you want to apply nitrous and drive on the street? ZGS or Perfect seal or standard types?
2.)Will the 1/16 live on the street? What material should they be? Moly coated or moly inserts or what?
3.)What would do the job the best and live in a street driven machine?
Thanks in advance.

[Vascar]

1.)What kind of rings should be used if you want to apply nitrous and drive on the street? ZGS or Perfect seal or standard types?
2.)Will the 1/16 live on the street? What material should they be? Moly coated or moly inserts or what?
3.)What would do the job the best and live in a street driven machine?
Thanks in advance.

[Mike Davis]

Vascar,I would use a Speed Pro Moly,Don't waste your money on the Total Seal or Zero Gaps.I tried the Total Seal in my 428 and had a Oil control problem.The car would smoke like a freight train when hammered on.Called Total Seal and told them the end gaps,skirt clearance,and finish of the cylinder and they said that there shouldn't be a problem.Tried rehoning the cylinder and a new set of Total Seals-same problem.Ran a leak down test and it looked OK.Talked to some Pro-Mod racers that said they had the same problem.The rings would lose some tension when the engine would get warm,as cylinder pressure would build with rpm's the rings would flutter.Pulled it back apart and had to hone .002 out of the cylinders to get them straight again and clear up the chatter marks.The block was honed with torque plates on a Sunnen CV616 and checked with a dial bore gauge for straightness.I have now seen this happen more than once,and have also seen the rings turn and the gaps line up after some hard runs.Stay with what's proven-just my 2 cents.

[Mike Davis]

Guess I should have said after Pulling it apart for the second time I put Speed Pro moly's in it and it cleared up the problem.No more oil consumption.I have talked to some people that have run them with a vaccum pump and had no problems.I tried them with and without a pcv and header evac.

[Hot Rod]

Hey Mike,
What process was used when honing your block, and what piston to cylinder wall clearence were you running! Did your engine builder heat the pistons to check the expansion rate on your pistons at different temps. This is very critical when using the gapless ring! As well as the 7 step process that should be used when honing the block! Did your 428 with the leakdown test show a negative leak down? And what kind of gap were you running on the Total seal ring? Was it more than .014? This would be the second ring from the top!!!! I just would like to know because I run the Total Seals and have had no Problem what so ever, the problem you describe happens when an engine builder doesn't take the time to check and double check the ring clearences, I just had a set sent to me and the Total Seal Ring #2 Ring was packaged wrong! I have a 455 60+ and all of my bore dia's are 4.2125 and I needed a 65 over min ring which they said they did not have they told me that the ring would seal at .030 + I was convinced, when I told my engine builder what Total Seal had said, "that was BS and he called them back and guess what the correct rings were there the next morning!!!! There is way more to the Ring flutter story, way way more and you may need to talk to some other engine builders that understand the correct procedures on using them! I was envolved every step of the way in the building of my new engine and I have learned quite alot in a short amount of time! I asked a lot of questions and I had a lot of paper work to do, because the engine was completely Blue Printed. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

Hot Rod

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Outlaw Pontiac Racers Association
"For Those Who Live the Legend"

[This message has been edited by Hot Rod (edited 10-24-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Hot Rod (edited 10-24-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Hot Rod (edited 10-24-2000).]

[PROBRD]

I don't know about the ring flutter with the Total Seal gapless rings but the problems I know of are as Mike said, The rings will walk and the gaps will line up with each other. If you leave them alone they will walk further and unalign themselves as easily as they aligned themselves though. Thats why I like the C & A Z-gap gapless rings better. They use one ring that overlaps itself and there is no chancce of the gaps lining up for lost compression. The top ring is also a moly ring. Just my 2 cents on the gapless ring part of the question.


[This message has been edited by PROBRD (edited 10-24-2000).]

[David Holmberg]

I know Lee used the total seal rings and had the same results as Mike did. Ace and other people do swear by them, So....

[Tom McQueen]

Vascar - It really depends how much NOS youre planning on using. If you are looking at more than a 175 HP hit, the piston and ring choice is gonna be different. Up to 175 a good set of forged pistons and quality rings (whatever kind) will work OK. When you start pushing the NOS much past 200 on those same pistons and rings youre living on the edge. Detonation will eventually knock the moly out of the top ring, and if the top ring land is to close to the top of the piston, the increased cylinder pressure will collapse it (pinching the top ring). Just my opinion.

[Bracket Racer]

TS Gapless for three seasons, no problems, standard header evacuation system. Might be different for someone running street and strip? Never pulled it apart and found ring gaps lining up.

[Hot Rod]

ProBird,
I am not saying that it did not happen I have seen it happen on other engines! And the honing procedure was incorrect as well as excessive ring gap! There is a fine line using these rings and where Total Seal and Engine builders disagree are in the ring gap area! I was told that .030+ gap was ok, when I told that to Chuck Miller he said no way and called Total Seal and spoke with ED and they sent the correct rings for my engine!
I also called an spoke with Sonny Leonard and he confirmed what chuck was telling me! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

I know that this ring flutter is happening
and there is a reason for it happing and it's not the rings it's the installation!!!!!!!!
Also it should be noted that the flutter when it does happen is at the bottom of the cylinder and does not effect the Compression of the engine, it will however put marks on the bottom of the cylinder wall and when you see this, you will need to pay close attention to the ring gap, call Total Seal let them know what the final bore is on th engine and tell them you want to file fit the rings not just install them! Also I will tell you that over the winter I will be installing a low tension oil ring set the one,s that Total Seal sends in the kit are suppose to be standard tension and they are more like high tension! Just my .02 worth!!!!! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

Hot Rod

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Outlaw Pontiac Racers Association
"For Those Who Live the Legend"



[This message has been edited by Hot Rod (edited 10-25-2000).]

[Vascar]

Lots of pros and cons here people. I'm still undecided and I don't want to take any chance with making a mistake that will cost me. What about the two types of moly rings? They have moly rings that are sandwiched between a top and bottom ring, and they have moly faced rings. What thickness should be used?

Pontiac people are on the move...

[Ron]

I have been using the Total Seal gapless rings in my 455 motor for over a year without problems. Compression is still great but I do not use NOS, gas only.

Block prep is the secret. My engine builder did not heat the pistons to check expansion but he did look after block prep.

Ron

[Lee]

I used the TS on my street/strip 455, like David H. mentioned above. This was several years ago. My machinist called TS to verify that we were doing everything correctly, since it was the first set he had used at the time.

My machinist's first observation was how thin the two 2nd rings were - and that came back to haunt me. Within about 6 months, my motor was smoking noticably. Sure enough, one of the iron halfs had cracked. I also found two or three of the other sets that the gaps had matched up, and a few more that were close to matching up. I rather doubt that they will ever rotate OUT of match, once they are matched.

As for nitrous, the thought that comes to my mind in regards to the TS is "divide and conquer". That is, I'd rather trust one thick ring than two thin rings to resist breaking.

I might consider trying the C&A ZEGs someday, but will never buy another set of TS.

[Gach]

I thought this would be some interesting info, so I copyed it, it's a very good compairson, from some pretty experienced people who run nitrous, as well as selling it for a living.

I've used Gapless rings, and always had a problem with them sealing. The problem with E-Vac systems on the street is they don't start really working until 2500 rpms, this qoute from Fast Lane Nitrous should help explain a few things.

****Fast Lane Nitrous Systems did a Piston Ring Test on a 454 CI Chevy that had 5 years of Nitrous Racing on it without a rebuild
(The reason we rebuilt the engine was because after 5 years of service without a problem the old Big Block finally Blew a HeadGasket!

The standard Speed Pro Plasma Molly Rings Worn OUT,went 6.13 ET @ 110 MPH ! The rebuilt Engine W/Gapless Rings went 6.127 ET @ 113 MPH in the 1/8 mile without nitrous The Speed Pro Rings went 5.56 ET @ 124 MPH and the Gapless Rings went 5.56 ET @ 124 MPH There was no Change! BUT there was now a trace of Detonation on the Spark Plugs. (Peppering) Gapless Rings do not make power Normally aspirated above 6500 rpm and do not make anymore horsepower on a nitrous engine because of the extreme cylinder pressure.
The cylinder pressure from the nitrous pressurizes the back side of the compression ring; forcing the ring against the cylinder
wall. Thus improving the sealing of the cylinder. Gapless Rings increase Top-End Oiling which will cause Detonation. Gapless Rings by their nature create a vacuum and suck oil past the guide seals. Fat Lane Nitrous Systems recommends "Standard" Piston Rings. Blow-By as long as it is not excessive
blows the oil film down the cylinder wall! Without a little blow-by the lower oil rings can't possible "scrape" the Oil off the walls sufficiently and the excess causes the upper rings to skip along the wall. The left over Oil winds up in the chambers. The blow-by also helps keep the upper rings from
"hydroplaning" over the walls by blowing the oil off the face of the ring and forcing it down toward the evacuation area. Fast Lane Recommendeds Speed Pro Competition Series Rings for most nitrous applications.(1/16")
For .043 inch rings use Tool Steel or Stainless Steel rings because the smaller rings cannot transfer heat away fast enough to the cylinder walls. Gapless rings were designed for "Alky" engines to keep the fuel from diluting the engine oil.



[This message has been edited by Gach (edited 10-25-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Gach (edited 10-25-2000).]

[Hot Rod]

Hey Lee,
There is a real trick to using the Total seal rings and you stated that it was the first time that you engine builder had ever used them! The Flutter that is spoke of is caused buy an incorrect ring gap, these rings are a real pain in the ass if you do not know what you are doing and Total Seal told me that it was ok the way they were, and I can tell you no way! So my guess is that they convinced you builder that what he was doing was ok, and they were wrong not your builder!!!! Next there is only one way that the ring walked around and that is the ring land gap in the piston had a clearence problem with the Total Seal Ring! Once locked in and the gap on the rings are correct they will not walk, so there is more to the problem than just the TS Rings! I am no Master Engine builder, the the guy that is doing my engine's now is, we talked in length about these rings and if you would like to talk about it please give me a shout at 703-626-7399, because I would like to know everything that happened. Because I will be watching these real close and if I run into the same problem as you did I will know more about what exactly happened to your engine and compare it with mine!!! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

Thanks for Your Help!!!!

Hot Rod

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Outlaw Pontiac Racers Association
"For Those Who Live the Legend"

[Mike Davis]

Hotrod,the gaps were .019 on the top ring and .015 on the 2nd ring.I bored and honed the block myself,left .008 to be honed out to make sure all boring marks were removed so the rings would not screw the pistons into the block.The cylinders were honed with sunnen rough stones,then a med. stone and finished with a 620 stone,alternating cylinders between honing to keep the heat down.The skirt clearance was .004.Some guys swear by these rings,I was just stating my experience with them.It about drove me crazy trying to figure where the oil was coming from.I was running #62 heads with new bronze guides and new stainless valves,Umbrella seals and O-rings.I noticed when I pulled it apart the valves had a oil film on them and the tops of the pistons had a film.When I pulled it down after installing the 2nd set of total seals (20 passes and 100 street miles) it looked the same as the first time.Since the last build I have 120 passes and 1800 street miles,pulled the intake and plugs looked in the ports at the valves--no oil build up-pistons also look clean.Like I said this was just my experience.

[Half-Inch Stud]

1993 Put Total Seal Gapless rings in my 455,[YK428 block dated-coded Aug1966]. about 4 months later, I had a smoker, upon tear down, I was horrified to fing the cylinder walls a mess. I was in a panic since I did not understand this "rare" type of failure.
Total Seal was no help "gee, the first we heard, unusual..are you sure, tell this to...".

No broken rings here. I remember observing excessive ring wear, yet forget which rings. Remember that it could have led to breakage though. Could have been a Flutter-looking wear pattern on the cylinders..was a mess.

Sept 1993; I had Jim Taylor inspect and rebuild the motor, using gapless Total Seal rings. Jim Said:

"Valve Guides fitted for gapless rings - .002"max.

"This is a gapless ring engine " if racing fuel is not used at all times then engine will detonate and stick valves."

"Must run an air filter during break-in, no PVC system, use 2 breathers. Crankcase pressure must be checked."

Jim seems to know gapless ring motor requirements.

Motor has run well since Dec. 1993 to retired in Dec 1997. Have not had further dealings with Jim Taylor since.

[Hot Rod]

Thanks for the information!

After we checked how much the pistons expand when we put the heat to them, we measured the expansion rate at 160 degrees, 170 degrees, 180 degrees, 200 and 220, now we know that the pistons do not see a uniform temp, but it gives us a base line to figure out how much clearence that will be needed at speed! The final bore of my block came out to 4.2125 all cylinders exactly! And the Piston to wall clearence is right at 7 1/2 thousands to allow for the expansion leaving the rings to only close up end to end anywhere from 3 to 5 thousands, this will not allow the ring ends to come into contact with one other! I had three of my Ross pistons that had a ring land problems that had to be corrected before the final installation! The gap was to small and the ring would not install correctly!
We will see what happens from here I only have 12 passes on the new engine and I keeps on picking up each pass!

Thank you for your information GUYS I will be watching these rings very closely!!!

Hot Rod

------------------
Outlaw Pontiac Racers Association
"For Those Who Live the Legend"

[Tim Corcoran]

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[This message has been edited by Tim Corcoran (edited 10-26-2000).]

[Ken -Ace- Brewer]

Hey guys,
Thought I would chime in on this one!
I have been using TS rings for over 7 years. I have seen the problems some of you have spoken of.
1) The rings spinning?
They will spin, but they will spin right past the gap.
Proper procedure must be paid to. I had problems at first to. But like Hot Rod said you must follow the right procedure. 620 grit is correct, but the difference was made when we widdened the crosshatch pattern! Since them NO PROBLEMS. As Dave H. said :I swear by them!
We will be testing out a NOS motor I built this weekend at the PDD race. TS rings and all. The unit is a fogger with over 400 hp!
Be Cool,

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ACE-P.P.R.