[John Milner]

I need some opinions as to what a '70 Judge hardtop might be worth. I am trying to buy a '70 Judge that has been sitting outside in a field since 1973. It has 60,000 actual miles. The car has been sitting outside and not running since '73, so it will need a total restoration. It is all there including the numbers matching WS Ram Air 3 400 with #12 heads and a 4 speed. It does have the Ram Air pan, but is missing the factory air cleaner. It is also missing the HO exhaust manifolds. It also appears to have a 10 bolt positrac with boxed control arms and a rear sway bar. It has manual steering, manual drum brakes, and no air conditioning. It started out life as an Atoll Blue car with a white vinyl top and black interior. Suprisingly, the roof is not all rotted out under what used to be a white vinyl top. The passenger's side rear 1/4 panel is quite rusty down at the bottom and would probably need replaced. The floor pans are not that bad, but would probably need some work. The rear spoiler is smashed and the trunk lid is bad and probably not savable. The front valance is smashed. The Enduro bumper is fairly good, but would need some work. It is a bucket seat/console car and the interior is all intact, but it would all need re-done. It needs a lot of money thrown at it to make it roadworthy. One bad thing is that the car dosen't have a title with it. I have described it as good as I can, so any opinions as to how much a Ram Air 3 4 speed Judge the needs a total restoration and no title would be worth would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

[Guilty]

If you can get it for $10,000.00 or under you would be ahead of the game. I'm sure you'll be able to get a title for the car, but it will need alot of money invested into it to get it back to original condition. It all depends on how much you want to spend on it.

[SWEETJUDGE]

First & foremost pull PHS on the vin. it may just be a gto with judge decals. (CHEAPER)
the JUDGE is definatly worth saving BUT you will have 35+K to restore if you have to farm out the work it could be more. 10 bolt is correct for that car but PHS will tell you eveything. MAKE SURE FRAME IS OK.... but dont let that detract you as frames are everywhere. YOU must have more knowledge than the seller. WE ARE HERE TO HELP
SO you are at the advantage

[TEG]

I agree with the above comments. However, I tend to think that the car would be closer to $20K, possibly $25K assuming there is no salvage or brand on the title. Interior work is the cheapest thing. But, if it has the correct carb, block, heads, tranny, etc. that package alone is worth 5K to 7K. The color is great (I even think Atoll with a white top would be awesome). Too bad not a lighter interior. Did they make parchment in 70? Probably just sandalwood. Even if you stick 50K into the restoration, you have a numbers matching 4 speed car in a desirable color. At 75K for a car, you aren't that far off from the market; maybe even ahead of it. Who knows what the true price is today? By the way, NADA lists a ram III car, #1 show condition, at $180K. I think most would agree that a restoration is alot easier and less expensive starting with an original car albeit in rough shape than a car that appears to have been restored but done very badly.

I probably would budget as follows (assuming some work is done by pros and some by you):

$1,500 for transmission. Tranny rebuilt, shifter rebuilt, odds and ends, plating, etc.
$8,000 for engine work. Assume the worst. My experience is that Pontiac motors are expensive to repair/rebuild and good Pontiac guys are rare.
$25 to 30 in the body, frame, inner fenders, etc. Includes paint.
$2K to 3K in the interior.
$1,000 in wheels and tires. JA's restored.
$800 in Gardner exhaust.
$1,000 in glass.
$1,000 to polish replace stainless.
$2,500 for stuff you never, ever expected.

I think these numbers might be a little high, but not much. Obviously, they will be lower if you can do some of the work or if you already have stockpiled some nice parts.

I'd say if you get the car under 20K, you are looking good. Just my honest opinion and I am towards the tail end of a 1969 restoration. Literally, things have doubled since my restoration started. Who knows where they will be in a year or two or three.

Good luck, it will be beautiful when done and it deserves to be done! Photograph the heck out of it before you start, in the middle, and of course after.....

T.

[GTO JOHN]

First off, run the PHS as Sweet suggested. It is probably real but your going to order it once you buy the car anyway so might as well get it now.

Second, I had $10K in my mind after reading your post and before viewing the reponses. I think Guilty is right on the money with his guess. A title is no big deal you can get one for under $300.

Here's how I see it as it sits:
Shell Judges are going for $4K (see bama1)
WS motor core $3K
4spd core, posi rear, complete sheetmetal, interior, glass, trim. $3K
Then if you have the right carb, dist, and other stuff your ahead on $10K.

Restoration costs are right along what TEG said except interior is alot more if you farm it out. Figure $5-6K for good complete interior work. Your paint and body may be less than $25K depending on your location and labor rates.

If you want an Atoll Blue 4spd Judge then you should get it if you can afford it. At $10K I think you could get your money back (and more) if you had to bail out of it down the road.

FWIW I bought this 70 Judge 4spd out of a Texas field in 2005. No motor, no ram air stuff, trans, hood, or fenders. Otherwise all there. Original decklid not shown but was included. Clear title and PHS. PM me if you want to know more.

Good Luck and post pics...
John

[Pontiac_Defender]

Originally Posted by GTO JOHN

FWIW I bought this 70 Judge 4spd out of a Texas field in 2005. No motor, no ram air stuff, trans, hood, or fenders. Otherwise all there. Original decklid not shown but was included. Clear title and PHS. PM me if you want to know more.

Good Luck and post pics...
John

Where do you find these cars!

I dream of coming across something like that lol!!! Especially a 70 Judge!!! My dream car *sigh*

Some guys have all the luck!

oh and good score!

[md1twal3]

Originally Posted by Pontiac_Defender

Where do you find these cars!

I dream of coming across something like that lol!!! Especially a 70 Judge!!! My dream car *sigh*

Some guys have all the luck!

oh and good score!

PD - John is the guy to set you up with a nice 70 project!

[Pontiac_Defender]

Originally Posted by md1twal3

PD - John is the guy to set you up with a nice 70 project!

ahhhhhhhhh ok now were on the same page! i will DEFINITELY keep that in mind in hopefully the near future!

[GTO JOHN]

Originally Posted by Pontiac_Defender

Where do you find these cars!

I dream of coming across something like that lol!!! Especially a 70 Judge!!! My dream car *sigh*

Some guys have all the luck!

oh and good score!

Ah, the age old question: Where/how do you find these cars? I'd like to see a thread started on this topic. Would make great winter reading. Maybe I'll give it a whirl if nobody steps up.

1. Sheer Luck
2. Networking with friends and stangers you meet at car shows, swaps, auto parts stores, workplaces, through ebay transactions, etc.
3. Scouring the newspapers, trading times, side streets, backyards, your local craigslist, ebay, other internet sites, etc.
4. Dumb Luck.
5. Luck.


PD; If your looking for a 70 GTO project I have one in the shop right now. I'm going to piece it back together and offer it for sale. You have first dibs thanks to md1twal3. Will advise

Sorry for the mini hijack here. I'd like to hear how John Milner found this one after the deal is done. Anyone else got thoughts on a 70 Judge project value?

John

[John Milner]

Well, I did not end up with this car. I offered what I could afford, but it was not enough. A fellow gto collector here in town ended up with it. The crazy thing is that I have probably passed the property that it was on more times than I care to remember. I had absolutely no idea that the car was out there. The person who found the car pushed it around with his tractor and ruined the front valance, deck lid, spoiler, and also put a dent in the front fender. It was 100% strait before that other than a bit of rust. The floor pans still seem to be very solid, but the trunk had some car batteries in it and rusted the trunk floor out. The only parts missing seem to be 3 JA Rally II's, ram air manifolds, and the air cleaner base. Everything else is there. Probably my only chance to own a real Judge.

[Pontiac_Defender]

Sorry to hear that John. And you never know...you may find something else.

[GTO JOHN]

You gave it a shot. Maybe the local gto collector who got the car will offer it yo you at a later date. Better keep in touch with him and let him know your interested if he decides to sell. You never know.

There are others out there and every year somebody finds a gem. Just ask stockcar32.

[Bet Winner]

You can find another. My advice is to take your time and find one with its original equipment that is not rusted too badly. I would start saving and maybe you'll find a nicer one at some point that you can afford. The chase can be fun too.

[wase]

Originally Posted by John Milner

Well, I did not end up with this car. I offered what I could afford, but it was not enough. A fellow gto collector here in town ended up with it. The crazy thing is that I have probably passed the property that it was on more times than I care to remember. I had absolutely no idea that the car was out there. The person who found the car pushed it around with his tractor and ruined the front valance, deck lid, spoiler, and also put a dent in the front fender. It was 100% strait before that other than a bit of rust. The floor pans still seem to be very solid, but the trunk had some car batteries in it and rusted the trunk floor out. The only parts missing seem to be 3 JA Rally II's, ram air manifolds, and the air cleaner base. Everything else is there. Probably my only chance to own a real Judge.

I wonder if, to add to our database, and to give others a round figure, how much did the Judge sell for?

[Forrest]

you gotta wonder, why was the car parked in 1973 and left to rot?? did the engine blow? There must be a reason why someone would just "leave" a judge just sitting there for all these years, gotta wonder??