[Goatboyjohnny]

Hello again out there, especially one Mr. John V. Wondered about deciphering an accessory code on a 64' Post Coupe GTO. Shows three ACC. codes.

2P - Radio ??
5N - GTO
5P - ????

John when were the earliest 64's produced? This one shows 11C, Third week of Nov. and a body number of 5803. Also a ? about the vin, it begins with the 824P, Meaning V8 - Lemans - 64 model yr.- Pontiac Mi. built. Please correct me if I'm mistaken. The next digit is a 5 followed by 4 other digits, I thought it should be a 1, that all the sequential numbers started at 10001. So the vin looks like this 824P5xxxx. Does that just mean it's the 50,000 plus unit built, or should there be a 1 or 0 either in place of or before the 5 ? And is it the same as 65, where it refers to V8 production, or is it just A bodies ?? Thank you ahead of time to John V. and anyone else who would like to reply. Hope all is well with everyone out there.

Johnny

[bigpop]

2P= radio, 5N= GTO (w/exceptions) 5P=?

I know 64's had the sequencial #,but did the V.I.N. designate V-8's vs. V-6's after the Plant ? In 65 they did,of course. I feel your car is the 55803 V-8 off the line at Pontiac. It's a 5N so it had a 389. John, where am I wrong on this,again? lol Larry B.

[Goatboyjohnny]

Oops, I misstyped. It was way to late, haha. The second ACC. code from the 5th group is a Z and not a P, read 5Z. Sorry about the confusion Bigpop, thanks for the reply. Any idea on the Z?

Johnny

[rexus31]

I just got these from John V the other day.

John, I hope I am not out of line posting this information. Just thought I'd save you a lot of typing.

"The 5 Group codes that apply to Fisher Body-Kansas City and Fisher Body-Baltimore for 1964 are:

Group 1, there was space for 11 separate codes for Group 1, also KC omitted the prefix 1 for Group 1 codes on the Data Plate

Code D: Power Top (used for Tempest Custom convertible only, standard for Lemans convertible)
Code E: Tinted Glass (All Windows)
Code O: Chrome Separator Strip for Two Tone Paint (not confirmed)
Code T: Power Front Seat (Bench or LH Bucket)
Code X: Power Windows
Code W: Tinted Glass (Windshield Only)

Group 2, there was space for 12 separate codes for Group 2

Code G: Console Accommodation (Bucket Seat Interior Only)
Code K: Air Conditioning
Code L: Floor Pan Cutout for Man Trans Floor Shifter
Code M: Floor Pan Cutout for Auto Trans Floor Shifter (requires Console)
Code P: Back-up Lamps
Code R: Rear Seat Speaker
Code S: Rear Mounted Manual Antenna (Chevy usage, not believed used for Pontiac builds)
Code T: Rear Mounted Power Antenna
Code V: Verbra-Phonic Rear Seat Speaker
Code Y: Cordova Top or Two Tone Paint, requires chrome separator moldings

Group 3, there was space for 10 separate codes for Group 3

Code B: Rear Window Defogger
Code C: Instrument Panel Pad (Chevy usage, not believed used for Pontiac builds)
Code K: Dome & Reading Lamp

Group 4, there was space for 7 separate codes for Group 4
No Group 4 Codes have been seen on KC Plates. Elsewhere, Group 4, Code F has been reported to refer to the Remote Outside Mirror. KC cars with this mirror have not shown this Data Plate code. Was not shown on the Baltimore Trim Manifest either. For that matter, I have not found this to be a valid code for a Pontiac Plant build with Remote Outside Mirror either.

Group 5, there was space for 5 separate codes for Group 5. Lots of Pontiac Data Plates will show Group 5, Code Z. Elsewhere this has been said to mean Seat Belt Delete on Pontiac Plant Data Plates only. There is evidence to show that this may not be true. I have never seen Sales Code 414 for the Seat Belt Delete option on a PHS Manifest for a car with the 5Z code. And many with the 5Z code have what appear to be Factory original Seat Belts. I have never seen the 5Z code in conjunction with the 5W code (Custom Seat Belts with Retractors) so it is conceivable that the 5Z does represent the Seat Belt Delete option at the Pontiac Plant. But if it does, I do not know why the Manifest would not have coded the Sales Code 414. I have never seen the 5Z code on any Kansas City Data Plate. The Kansas City Shipping Order is very difficult to decode as you know, but I did find the 5O code on a KC Data Plate with a Shipping Order that almost unquestionably was coded for the mid year Seat Belt Delete option.

Code N: GTO badging in lieu of Lemans badging, delete Louver Spears in Rear Quarter
Code O: Seat Belt Delete (Only used after mid year when Seat Belts became standard content)
Code V: Standard Seat Belts (Pontiac Sales Code 411 prior to mid year, V code not confirmed)
Code W: Custom Seat Belts w/ Retractors

You will also notice a couple odd things about the KC & Baltimore Data Plates prior to mid year. First, the Plate itself was the old style, at the bottom will read:

THIS CAR FINISHED WITH
Magic Mirror ACRYLIC LACQUER
BODY BY FISHER

Later Plates will simply read “BODY BY FISHER”.

Also, the early style Plates do not code the Model Year in front of the Style code, omitting the 64. And the Time Built codes on the early Kansas City Plates until about late December are not coded in the familiar Month digits/Week letter format. Rather they have codes like N07 (found on a car with an 11/11 Broadcast Date and which likely means Nov. 7th), D02, W03, or even 923. I am not sure if Baltimore used this same coding early year, the earliest Baltimore Data Plate I have observed shows 12B, the standard code format.

Make particular note of the 2P code. For years, this was believed to code the Radio. However, I was able to find a car that was ordered without a Radio that had this code. And then I found others that had a factory Radio but no 2P code. Consistently, I discovered that the 2P code was connected to the Back-up Lamp option."

[Goatboyjohnny]

Thanks for the reply Rexus, JohnV is the man !!! Going to send for PHS on this one tomorrow, and was wondering about the vin as I asked earlier about should there be any other digits before the 5 in 824P5xxxx ? I don't want to fax the wrong info in. Any have any ideas? Thanks.

Johnny

[rexus31]

Originally Posted by Goatboyjohnny

Thanks for the reply Rexus, JohnV is the man !!! Going to send for PHS on this one tomorrow, and was wondering about the vin as I asked earlier about should there be any other digits before the 5 in 824P5xxxx ? I don't want to fax the wrong info in. Any have any ideas? Thanks.

Johnny

I'm not certain on the VIN. We'll have to wait for John V to chime in.

[Goatboyjohnny]

Thanks to all who have replied, any input John V. ? Thanks in advance.

Johnny

[John V.]

The earliest '64s were produced 09A. You can search for a thread on this Forum about some of the earliest ones that have been seen.

The earliest "known" '64 GTO was one of a bunch of near identical ones produced in Sept. and sent to the Zone Offices as "Zone Announcement" cars intended to be given out to the automotive press around the country to drum up publicity. I believe a copy of the PHS document was posted in that thread. The whereabouts of any of the Zone Announcement GTOs is unknown.

ALL Plants that built Pontiacs in '64 started with VIN sequence no. 1001. There was no distinction in the VIN sequence for 6 cyl vs. V8, that was done with the 1st digit in the VIN prefix, 6 or 8.

So you will see 4 digit VIN sequence nos. on early builds, my own Fremont GTO has a 4 digit VIN sequence. At the satellite Plants, none of them reached 100,000 units, so the highest VIN sequence will be 5 digit from any of these Plants (A body or big car).

At the Fremont Plant, the paperwork will show leading 0's so that the VIN will indicate a 6 digit sequence, such as F005678 or F012345. But the leading 0's were not embossed on the VIN tag itself.

The Pontiac Plant produced something like 280,000 units or about 25,000 or so per month. By the end of Sept. or early Oct., they were beyond 10,000 units, and by sometime in Jan. or so, they were beyond 100,000 units. So they quickly had 5, then 6 digit VIN sequence nos.

The leading 0's will also be on the Manifest for the Pontiac Plant builds but again, NOT on the VIN tag itself.

It is believed that the cars were not built in VIN sequence order, but more or less, the one you are looking at was the 5xxxx car built at that Plant for the '64 Model Year. When calculating how many, subtract 1000 from the VIN sequence no. since the first one was P1001.

The 5Z code on the Data Plate is interesting.

I will be VERY interested to learn if this car was built with Seat Belts, Sales Code 411.

As I stated in the note to Scott, the 5Z code appears on a lot of '64 Pontiac Plant Data Plates.

It may be the code for Seat Belts. After Jan 1 or so, GM made seat belts standard equipment for the two outboard front seat positions in all their passenger cars. Pontiac adjusted the Base Prices to suit and revised the Order Form to reflect the elimination of the Sales Code 411 Seat Belt Option. Since they were now standard equipment, I would not expect a Data Plate code to be used to identify this option after Jan 1.

But perhaps Fisher Body-Pontiac continued to code them with the 5Z code even after they had become standard content. That would also be consistent with the fact that I have never seen 5W and 5Z on the same Data Plate.

The PHS document for this car could be the smoking gun I've been looking for.

The Custom Seat Belts with Retractors (Sales Code 624) was a common option early and late year, in large part because they were made part of the Protection Group Option and was code 5W.

But the Sales Code 411 was very rarely ordered when it was an option early in the year. IIRC, GM claimed that only 2% of all car buyers ordered Seat Belts when they were offered as an option (and in the case of Pontiac, that may have included the more common Custom Seat Belt option). This is the first early year car that I have become aware of with the 5Z code and it may prove that 5Z is for the regular Seat Belt option, instead of the 5V that I had speculated might have been used.

One last caution, the Code list I gave to Scott was specific to what was used in '64 at KC & Balt. There was at least some variation Plant to Plant and Year to Year.

[Goatboyjohnny]

John V. Thank you so very much for sharing your wealth of knowledge. As soon as I have the phs I will let you know about the seatbelt situation.

Johnny

[Goatboyjohnny]

Okay John V. got the Fax back this afternoon. Here's how it reads.

Prod. Date: 11-14
Body Number: PO05803
IGN. Key: 9375
Trunk Key: 9915
VIN: 824P05XXXX
? Date: N-15 (what's this date?)
Accy Grps.: blank
SDS (?): 1
Tag For (?): blank
Ship To: blank
REG:3
SES(?) Class: 3
Charge To: 07 783 - Superior Pontiac-Cadillac, Flint MI.
Delaer Order Number: 76707
Model: 227 - Lemans Sport Coupe
Color: HHA - Skyline Blue Lower and Upper - Black Wheels ? or Pinstripe??
Trim: 19 - Parchment
RPO's
382- GTO
411 - SEATBELTS !!! (There you go sir)
421 - Windshield Washer & Wipers
444 - Mirror Outside Remote Control
452 - Tachometer
462 - Deluxe Wheel Discs
471 - Lamps - Back up
503 - Power Steering - Power Brakes
Axle - 703 or 708 - 71K ?? Shows saftey track circled 708 Performance?? 71K = 3.23 ??
Tire Type: 720 - 737
Tire Brand: Blank
Engine: 757 768, or 78 = 389 4V
Transmission: W - 4 SPD M20 Wide Ratio
Production Instructions - T LA GP GP ???? (Any Ideas Mr. John V. ?)

Typed it out for you because it wouldn't let me attach pic, hope I helped with the seatbelt issue, let me know. Anything with ?? I'm unsure of. Thank you for your help and making learning about these cars a blast.

Johnny

[John V.]

I've been trying to get a grip on the Dates since forever.

The Production Date might be the Date the completed Body Assembly came over from the Fisher Body operation.

The N 15 is in a Box labeled "PREF. DATE" or Preference Date. Early year, they tended to be coded like this, N 15 meaning Nov. 15. More commonly, later in the year the coding was the same date format used in the Production Date Box.

The Pref. Date is really tough to comprehend. Sometimes the Pref. Date is prior to the Prod. Date, sometimes after, usually within a day or two either side of the Prod. Date. Oftentimes it is blank.

There will also be a stamped date on the Manifest, sometimes illegible. That may be the date the car rolled off the Final Line, but not certain. It also is usually within a day or two of the Prod. Date, but on occasion several days later, especially for cars that show Special Equipment options like 3.90 gears. That might be because such builds required special options that may have caused the Final Plant scheduling clerk in the Body Bank to schedule the build much more delayed than the bread & butter builds.

All of this just speculation.

703 would be coded for the Safe-T-Track locking diff option.

71K identifies the axle ratio, K would be 3.23 with standard brakes (2 in Box 69 would mean it had metallic brakes, a Special Equipment option)

Accessory Group options like the Protection Group, Lamp Group, Mirror Group, etc. were coded in the Accessory Group Box, none on this car. No Radio option, the 2P code remains consistently connected to the Back-Up Lamp option.

T LA GP GP are the early year coding for the standard GTO Springs and Shocks. Format was Front Springs, Rear Springs, Front Shocks, Rear Shocks. Later, the coding was changed but I believe the Springs & Shocks remained the same. All GTOs got the same Springs (no option choice), except when A/C was ordered and then specific Springs used for that.

The optional HD Shocks were code GG early year. Shock codes were changed to a numeric code later year, using the last 3 digits of the Shock p/ns.

The early codes may have related to a color code system but if so, I have not been able to deciher that. All Pontiac Plant builds (big car and A body) will show the Springs and Shocks codes in the "PRODUCTION INSTRUCTIONS" box of the Manifest.

Tire code indicates the car was built with the code 07 Red Lines. GTOs that git the Whitewall Tire Override option instead of Red Lines were coded 720/736.

Of course, the most exciting thing to me is the identification of the "rare" early year Sales Code 411, Seat Belt option. Suddenly the 5Z code makes sense!

Thanks!

[Goatboyjohnny]

John V. a couple ?'s for ya. My manifest sheet shows nothing in the box marked 39, but the dealer form show's Radio - Pushbutton & Manual antenna col. 392 ? Was that standard on the GTO? And also, my color code of HHA, I believe the A is the wheel color ?? If I'm correct, how do you know if the car came with a painted pinstripe, and if so what color? The stamped date on my manifest is Nov 18 1963, which seems to go right along with what you were saying. Thank you once again for all the great info and wisdom. Glad I could help with the seatbelt issue. Hope to hear from you again soon.

Johnny

[John V.]

The 3rd letter of the COLOR code on the Pontiac Manifest is for the Wheel Color. Color coordinated Wheel Colors were used with the Standard Content Hub Caps (co-called "poverty" caps) since the wheel was well exposed.

When one of the full wheel cover disc options was selected, wheel color was always code A, Regent Black. Your car was ordered with Deluxe Wheel Discs, hence, Black Wheels.

Are talking about the copy of the PMD Wholesale Car Order form that PHS sends along with the Manifest and Yellow Highlights the various Options that apply to your build?

If they highlighted Sales Code 392, then they made a mistake. Unless you neglected to list code 392 in your list of Options indicated on the Manifest, the car does not appear to have been built with a radio & antenna option.

The Order Form that PHS sends is a later Revision than would have been used when your car was ordered. You will note that the Sales Code 411 Seat Belt option that your GTO DID include is not even listed on the Order Form. The Order Form was revised at mid year when Seat Belts were made standard, Sales Code 411 was removed and Sales Code 414 "Less Seat Belts", a credit delete option worth $11 was added.

If the original Owner retained the ORIGINAL Dealer Sales Paperwork and THAT document shows the Code 392 Option, there are two possible explanations. The Radios were available as a Dealer Accessory Package and very well could have been added by the Dealer after delivery from the factory at buyer request.

A less likely possibility is that the car WAS built with the Radio but was not indicated on the Manifest. A lot of times, the cars were built differently than the Manifest, however, in my experience, these changes were picked up and reflected by handwritten notations added by the Sales Dept. to indicate an addition or deletion of certain options so that the Dealer invoice could be corrected.

If this was the case, you might see handwritten notes that could read:

+392
4/8 - 12/3

The date would depend and there might be additional notes. But the Sales Code of the affected option(s) showing a minus or plus and the 4/8 (or sometimes 4&8) and a date will reflect that a Dealer invoice was adjusted to reflect a change in the actual build.

I assume no such handwritten notations are indicated on your Manifest, so doubt that this was the case.

Radios were NOT standard content in any Tempest model nor part of the GTO option group. There was a Basic Group option package that included the Sales Code 392 Radio & Antenna, but you indicated that no Accessory Group was coded on the Manifest, so unlikely this Group option was ordered and in any event, the individual options that comprised the Group option package were also consistently coded in the numeric boxes in addition to being coded in the Accessory Group box, so if the Basic Group option package was included, a 2 would still have appeared in Box 39.

From what you have listed, I do not see any indication that a Radio was factory installed in this car.

The '64 Tempest models, including those with the GTO group option, did NOT offer a factory pinstripe.

That began in '65 when it WAS standard but could be deleted if desired. So your car would not have had a pinstripe from the factory.

Your Nov. 18 stamped date could be the date it rolled off the Final Line as I suggested. Nov. 18 was a Monday, that Friday the 22nd was the day JFK was assassinated in Dallas.

[Goatboyjohnny]

John V. the car has a radio in it now, wich appears to be a 66 model so you are probably correct that it was built without, as there is nothing in the 39 box on the manifest. Thanks for the info on the pinstripe as well. Thank you again for all your help and information. When I receive the actual packet I will see it they have the radio highlighted or not and let you know.

Johnny

[johnta1]

64 GTO on ebay

Has 5Z on cowl tag and looks to be original seatbelts?

Need to get this 5Z info straight.

[Dick Boneske]

Looks like a very nice '64. You may not like the color combo, but you seldom see a '64 nicer than this one.

[Keith Seymore]

I've been watching this thread but haven't jumped in yet; may as well hit all my comments here at once:

a) Here's a link to the aforementioned "oldest GTO" thread; the Zone Announcement cars were built on September 11, 1963: http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...=580192&page=5

b) Johnny - I see the car is from Superior Pontiac-Cadillac in Flint Mi. I grew up in Flint and spent quite a bit of time at that dealership. In fact, I *think* we may have gotten our '68 GTO through Superior rather than Royal. At any rate, the building is still there although it has only recently been converted to a plumbing supply house. Let me know if you would like any pictures, either modern or vintage, and I'll see what I can come up with.

c) That '64 currently listed (the "Hollywood producer column shift auto car" - as it has come to be known) has been listed several times. It is neat that it is an unrestored survivor car but something - either that color combination, trans, price or condition - seems to be preventing its sale

d) Johnny - if you would like to send me the pic/scan of your build manifest I can probably post it up here

e) JohnV - I managed to come up with a vintage calendar for a few of the years in question (1961, 1963, 1964 and 1965) so we could have a quick ready reference for days of the week back then

f) I've never mentioned this publicly but the '64 build documentation is way cooler than the '65 information. I'm jealous -

K

[John V.]

Keith, where did you come up with that "Hollywood producer" line??!! Too funny.

I agree, we've discussed that car before. I actually like the colors. Keith once said they belonged on a Buick! Ouch. The trans is the negative for me. Not that I'm in the market.

John, the 5Z is resolved in my mind from the evidence in this thread.

Johnny's car is the first early Pontiac Plant build that exhibited the Code 5Z that I had come across. Sure enough, the Manifest coded the early year option Code 411, the Front Seat Belts. This was the option for the belts without the Retractors. If you wanted the retractors, you ordered Code 624 instead and the data plate will show Code 5W.

On or about Jan. 1, 1964, GM announced that all '64 passenger cars would get standard front seat belts (2 outboard seat position sets). PMD revised the base content, adjusted the Base Prices upward, reduced the price of the Sales Code 624 option, and deleted Sales Code 411 from the revised Order Form. At the same time, they added Sales Code 414 to the Order Form which was the Seat Belt Delete option for a credit.

For whatever reason, Fisher Body-Pontiac continued to use the 5Z code even though the Belts were no longer an added cost option.

I have never seen the 5Z code on a KC Data Plate. They likely would have used the 5Z code early, however, Sales Code 411 was an extremely rare option, so finding an early car from KC with the 5Z code would be quite difficult.

But if Fisher Body-KC had continued to code for the standard belts, then 5Z would have been commonplace after Jan 1. Since it is not, I conclude that Fisher Body-KC stopped coding the Standard Seat Belts once they became standard content (they did code the 5W when applicable).

But Fisher Body-Pontiac continued to code the Standard Belts after Jan. 1. Unless Code 624 was ordered or unless Code 414 was ordered, you will always see Code 5Z on the Pontiac Plant Data Plate for cars built after Jan. 1.

It was previously thought that Code 5Z was used by the Pontiac Plant only and indicated the Seat Belt Delete option.

I became suspicious of this code because the Manifest never showed Code 414 for cars that had the 5Z code.

Then I discovered a true Seat Belt Delete car with Code 5O on the Data Plate.

Johnny's Manifest then nailed it for me, pre-Jan build, 5Z code and Code 411 option.

I can't explain why Fisher Body-Pontiac chose to continue coding the 5Z after the Belts became standard content. But it seems clear as to the meaning.

Since the Standard Belts, Custom Seat Belts w/ Retractors, and Seat Belt Delete are each mutually exclusive options, you should only ever find one of the codes on the Data Plate, 5Z or 5W or 5O.

Check the Pontiac Plant Data Plates. For cars built prior to Jan., you may find 5Z or 5W or neither. For cars built after Dec., you will always find 5Z or 5W or 5O. You won't find a post-Dec Data Plate without one of these codes (and only one).

I am setting myself up for somebody to find an exception. There is always the chance of a coding error on the Data Plate. But those are quite rare.

So check them out guys, if you find a '64 Pontiac Plant Data Plate that isn't coded the way I have predicted, let us know.

These same codes would have been used on the big Pontiacs too. There were close to 200,000 '64 Pontiacs and Tempests built at the Pontiac Plant after Dec. '63 so there should be plenty of examples to look at.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by John V.

Keith, where did you come up with that "Hollywood producer" line??!! Too funny.

I think one of the earlier Ebay auctions actually said that (ie, that the car was owned by a Hollywood producer)