[gomowgto]

Hey guys, this is my first visit to the judge sight on this forum as I own a 1967 GTO and spend most of my time there, but I have a friend that after 13 years of being in storage behind his house, he finally got out his 1970 ram air IV judge which he is the original owner of. He traded in his 61 chevrolet when he returned from viet nam in 1970 and bought this right off the dealership lot. Here is the problem. The car is badged on the hood saying ram air IV, the paperwork says ram air IV, but the engine and it's components are ram air III. The block is a WS, the intake instead of being aluminum is cast iron. He has had more than one person tell him that his motor is a ram air III and not a ram air IV. People have also said the factory sometimes uses up left over parts when building some of the cars back then?? I am going over to his house tomorrow with my gto numbers book and we are going to record all the numbers on the car and see what we can figure out. Has anyone out there heard of such a thing as a ram air IV coming from the factory with the ram air III drivetrain?? He says the motor has never been out, not even for a rebuild. It is complete, numbers matching all original right down to the nuts on the tires. Sorry for the long post, and as always thanks for any and all input , I will update you when we pull the numbers.

[steve v]

I'd get the PHS on it even tho he bought it new, that tells the truth as to how it was built.

It's possible the dealer slapped some IV stickers on just to help sell it, wouldn't be the first time either!

[OVERULD]

Originally Posted by gomowgto

The car is badged on the hood saying ram air IV, the paperwork says ram air IV, but the engine and it's components are ram air III.

Which paperwork are you talking about? Has he already pulled the PHS or is he looking at the original window sticker, bill of sale or what?

Like Steve said, the PHS will tell the truth about how it left the factory. While you are pulling numbers, get some pictures to post as well. I'd love to see this one. What color combo?

BJ

[mmarx]

Does the partial VIN on the block match the car?

[68bird400HO]

The confusion might be the way it is listed on the paperwork you have. Does it say something like "Ram Air 4 bbl"? That means Ram Air with a 4 bbl carb - not RAIV. I think a RAIV would actually read "Ram Air IV" on the paper work.

[Old Blue 66]

Originally Posted by steve v

I'd get the PHS on it even tho he bought it new, that tells the truth as to how it was built.

It's possible the dealer slapped some IV stickers on just to help sell it, wouldn't be the first time either!

This was my first thought. Id love to see this car. Post some pics when you can.

[Lloyd-TX]

As others have posted - partial VIN off the front of the block, plus YOUR OWN PHS will tell the tale!

[Lloyd-TX]

Originally Posted by mmarx

Does the partial VIN on the block match the car?

Thread 'jack . . .

How've you been, Mike?

[mmarx]

Originally Posted by Lloyd-TX

Thread 'jack . . .

How've you been, Mike?

Lloyd, doing pretty good, thanks for asking. I'll drop you a note...

I'm with 68bird400HO on this one, probably misreading the PHS.

[gomowgto]

O.K guys, here are the pics, I had to have my wife help me with the pic downloads, I know, I just lost alot of man points. I got a chance to get over there briefly tonight, will go back in the morning. We did find the partial vin on the block and it does match the vin on the car, so there is no doubt that it is the original motor. He does not have the phs yet, but is going to get it. I agree and told him that he needs the phs, it is the birth certificate for his car. It is polar white with black interior. The pics show the ram air IV decals on the hood, and he doesn't have any other paperwork stating anything about it being a ram air IV, so we will have to wait till the phs comes. I am beginning to believe that it is a good possibility that the dealership put the IV on that car cos I can't see the assembly plant putting ram air IV decals on a car with the ram air III motor. Anyway, I will get more numbers tomorrow and update you then. He also has pic of when he totaled the car 2 yrs after he had it. He put it in the ditch backwards a 80mph in the winter, the left rear quarter ended up in the back seat. He went ahead and had it fixed and later after years of driving it year round and all the doors and fenders were rotted out. BTW the gold gto is mine, couldn't show pics of someone elses car without sticking mine in there. More later.

[OVERULD]

Wow! That car sure doesn't look like it just spent 13 years stored behind someone's house. Nice looking one-owner. How many miles are on it?

BJ

[Judge273]

Never heard of a person buying a RA IV Judge off a dealers lot in 1970, and getting a RA III Judge instead.

But, how cool to have that expierence, and still be the original owner with a matching to the nuts and engine Judge! Not to mention having a friend with a nice gold/gold 67!!

[ramair3formula]

Ah, it's more likely that who ever repainted it when it was totaled put the wrong stickers on it, don't ya think?

[ramair3formula]

Your original post lead us to believe it was all original. Sounds like it's been painted twice!

[gomowgto]

O.K. if painting it and restoring a michigan car that was a daily driver for it's first probably 10 years of it's life and was wrecked then rotted out but kept and restored makes it not an orginal car, then I stand corrected. I guess if you replace your water pump 5 yrs after you bought your 1970 judge, it is no longer a numbers matching judge cos it now has a 1975 water pump on it.?.?.? I still say how many people can say they have their original car that has never been restored or repaired or had new or replacement parts put on it over a 40 yr period of ownership. This car is owned by the original purchaser, with the protecto plate, original engine, drivetrain,purchase receipts etc. I say that is about as original as it gets. He has a two car garage in his back yard where he parked it 13 years ago in the condition you see it in, but just never drove it. He would start it on occasion and kept it covered, but just never plated it or got it out for a drive. He and a friend restored it themselves, I saw the pics. but that was over 20 yrs ago, and he said he was the one that ordered the ram airIV badges that are on the hood, but he is sure that he put the same ones on that were on it before. That is another question I have, I know the phs will tell what engine, trans etc that the car came with ,but will it also tell if it came with the ram air IV badging on the hood?? or will it just say that it came with the ram air III or ram air IV engine package? I am beginning to agree that if this is a ram air III car someone mistakenly put the wrong badging on it. My question is who, and how do we find out for sure?? Thanks again for all the input. Gotta get over there now and check some numbers. More later.

[gn4u2c]

wrong decals that's all. Still a cool car.. Its ok to have a 70 Ram Air III car... no loss of man points there LOL...

[gomowgto]

Got over to his house this morning and recorded some numbers, block, 9799915 1970, intake manifold, 9799068, cast iron, heads, cast number 12, and the ram air breather element set up only has one heat riser tube on the LH side, ram air IV had two heat risers, one on each side. There is no question that this is a ram air three with the wrong badgeing on the hood. He is going to get the phs so we can see if he badged it wrong or if the dealership or the factory did. Either way as gn4u2c said, it's still a cool car and once we confirm the phs, he will get the correct badges for it to make it right.

[OVERULD]

Does he have any old photos from back in the day? Those are always fun to see and might shed some light on this interesting story.

Very neat car either way.

BJ

[gomowgto]

Oh and BTW someone asked how many miles on it, 73,000. Smokes a little when first started, probably valve guide seals. He wants to get it appraised to decide wether he wants to invest the money on a rebuild. Another guy at a car show he was at this weekend has a numbers matching 70 judge with an automatic and has it insured for 76,000, mike doesn't know how much his is worth or should be insured for, so he is looking into an appraisal too. He doesn't think his is worth near that, but I think he will be surprised to see what it's really worth.

[gomowgto]

He does have some old pics, maybe 6 or seven, they show when he first got it, then when he wrecked it, then when it was restored the first time, then when it was all rotted out and restored again to look like it does now.