[Paul Westcott]

The primary goals of my EFI project have finally been accomplished! I wanted a REAL street and strip machine, which is by definition, a compromise. It had to be a reliable, pump-gas friendly highway cruiser, with above average fuel economy, and also be fully capable of running respectable and consistent ET's at the drag strip.

After messing around the last few years with an old 900 CFM Holley TBI set up, it became apparent that tuning the EFI for optimum street performance was entirely doable, but getting the thing to launch hard at the track was an exercise in futility. The fuel required when all 4 barrels went full open at the starting line exceeded the capabilities of this system. Translation: starting line bog.

The fix was going to port fuel injection. I had my existing Edelbrock Performer RPM intake manifold machined for injector bosses and added custom-built fuel rails, home-made fuel rail brackets, new Bosch-style LS1 injectors and upgraded the fuel plumbing to handle up to 60 psi. By removing the injector pod from the Holley TBI and plugging up the fuel related stuff, I could use it as standard throttle body, complete with Throttle Position Sensor (TBS) and Inlet Air Control (IAC). Some creative linkage manipulation provided progressive throttle opening as opposed to the original, all-four-at-once set up. Tip in issues have been greatly improved as a result.

My Megasquirt II ECU was already handling all ignition, timing and fuel duties, so switching to port injection was no biggie. The Megatune program (open source - FREE) is so infinitely capable of fine tuning all fuel and ignition parameters, that by driving around for a few days under all the most common driving scenarios; tuning it via laptop on the fly, we had the street part dialed in very quickly. Locked up in 4th gear OD and resisting the urge to mash the go pedal has so far netted an average highway fuel economy of 18 MPG. Further tuning (very lean and lots of advance) will likely bump that up even further. Like all modern-day EFI vehicles, this engine fires up without your foot on the gas. You can then simply throw it in gear and drive away; cold day, hot day, high elevation, low elevation... it doesn't matter.

The next test was done at Speedworld Drag Strip during Steve Barcak's Pontiac Heaven weekend. The first run down the track confirmed that this beast could indeed launch. From dead idle to max throttle -no bog whatsoever. This also proved that the 700R4 and the rear end were able to take the shock of a hard launch (knock on wood). It took a few runs to get the drag radials and suspension optimized, (not to mention getting the driver's technique down... lol ) but the car was soon running consistent upper 12's. Best ET to date: 12.88 @ 107 MPH. I shifted at 5K and was at 5300 RPM in 3rd at the lights. Interestingly enough, we never made any tuning adjustments from where we were at on the street tune -it just ran. Always room for improvement, but for a first time out with a new system, I think the results speak for themselves.

I'd like to hear form any EFI-ers and racers out there as to what works for you, what doesn't work, war stories, Q&A, comments, suggestions, etc. Those considering the EFI route will hopefully find this interesting and informative.

[PontiacMatt72]

I like the idea of goin efi for dependability and fuel economy... I'd like to build an old pontiac daily driver car someday, basically like what you've done with your Tempest. goal would be 20+ mpg. you're right there! and runnin sub-13 second 1/4 mile passes too!?

[Bob Rutledge]

I like it, and the looks of a carb under the hood is pretty cool. I am not sure if you would see a difference, but have you tried a cold air intake? With the breather setup like you do, you are getting all hot air from around the engine. Just an idea to throw out there.

[Chris Petersen]

Sweet!

Can you share all the specs?

Rear gear ratio?
Engine size?
Cam specs?
Comp. ratio?

Would be a great help.

Any chance I could get a copy of your tune to look at? The MSQ file?

Thanks,
Chris

[Paul Westcott]

Originally Posted by Bob Rutledge

I like it, and the looks of a carb under the hood is pretty cool. I am not sure if you would see a difference, but have you tried a cold air intake? With the breather setup like you do, you are getting all hot air from around the engine. Just an idea to throw out there.

You're thinking like I am. I've always wanted to get cold air to the engine. I think a ram-air box set up feeding air from the grill would be ideal. Besides, it's stealthy... no scoop visible. Thanks!

[Paul Westcott]

Originally Posted by Chris Petersen

Sweet!

Can you share all the specs?

Rear gear ratio?
Engine size?
Cam specs?
Comp. ratio?

Would be a great help.

Any chance I could get a copy of your tune to look at? The MSQ file?

Thanks,
Chris

Thanks, Chris!
You want specs? I got specs...

I'll have to pull the MSQ files from the laptop and see if I can send them. Send me your email address via PM

*********

Engine Details, Etc.:
1970 XF code, 4-bolt main, 455 +.050 (467 cu. in.)
Stock Nodular crank turned 0.010
Cleavite bearings
Ross Custom flat top pistons
Hastings file fit rings
Eagle forged H-beam 6.625” rods
Zero decked
9.5:1 comp. ratio
Melling 60 psi oil pump
Balanced rotating assembly
SFI balancer
Fel-pro gaskets
#96 heads, ~96 cc, hardened seats, gasket matched, blocked crossovers, cleaned up the rough spots
Ferrea SS 2.11 / 1.77 valves
1.6 ratio aluminum roller rockers
Comp XE 274 cam 230/236@.050 523/529 lift w/1.6 rockers 110LSA
Comp Cams timing chain set, hyd. Lifters, valve springs and push rods
Edelbrock Performer RPM intake manifold machined for port injection
Holley 1000 CFM TB with injector pod removed (functional TPS and IAC)
Megasquirt II v 3.0 ECU -controlling all fuel and ignition.
Megasquirt "Map Daddy" MAP Sensor
3/8” in / out fuel lines
Twin parallel MSD EFI inline fuel pumps
Aeromotive Adjustable Fuel Pressure Regulator set at 55 psi
Bosch-style LS1 injectors 36 lbs/hr
Custom-built fuel rails and hold-down brackets
Innovate Wideband O2 sensor
HEI w/locked down mech. advance and no module (rotor and mag. reluctor only)
34 degrees advance in by ~3K rpm
MSD remote coil
MSD6AL box
MSD 8mm plug wires
Doug's Headers
3" pipes w/ 3" X pipe and 3” cut-outs
Dynomax Super Turbos
Dual Flex-a-Lite electric cooling fans

Trans Details:
’88 700R4 -w/Hytek Max Build:

'88 UP Case with Auxillary valve body
30 Spline input drum reinforcement w/ custom over running clutch piston (Sonnax)
5 planet front and rear planetary assemblies
Billet 2nd apply piston kit (Fairbanks)
Kevlar wide 2-4 band
Mechanical diode forward sprag
Sonnax special reinforced sun shell with modified Torrington rear sprag race
9 clutch 3-4 clutch pak – Alto
HD forward clutches (6)
Modified front pump return line
Deep aluminum oil pan
13 vane pump with hardened rings
TCI vacuum lockup kit
TransGo 700 shift kit
.500 Boost Valve
'89 Corvette Torque Converter w/ HD lockup clutch – 2600 rpm stall
B&M 3/4 Shift Sleeve

TCI BOP adapter
B&M trans cooler
B&M Megashifter

Rear end:
10-bolt BOP 8.2 Nodular GS type
3.55 Richmond gears
Auburn Pro posi
TA Performance Rear End Girdle
Moser custom alloy axles
SSM lift bars
Split, independent-fill air shocks
275-50-15 BFG Drag Radials (track)
245-60-15 BFG Radial T/A (street)

Misc.
PST polygraphite front suspension kit
MBM power front disc brake kit
OMZ Racing seats
Hurst Line-Lok

***************

Probably way more than you wanted to know!

[Paul Westcott]

With fuel costs going skyward, I'm curious what kind of fuel economy other EFI or carbed cars w/overdive trans are getting?

[krisr]

Are you using the 28lb/hr LS1 injector?? You may find they're a bit small for your engine. I had tried them on my 400 inch motor and the duty cycle hit 100% at about 4000rpm. I upgraded to the 36lb/hr EV6 injector instead and that seem to be the winning ticket for me. The spray pattern difference between the EV1 (pintle cap style) and the EV6 (disc style) is enormous! I managed to strip a fair amount of fuel out of idle and cruise and even get mine to idle leaner using the same amount of timing just from the difference in atomisation and the reduction of fuel puddling.

One day I will be upgrading to the MS3 setup and going full sequential now i've got these EV6 injectors in. Previously using EV1's I didn't see much point in sequential but now I should be able to get really accurate control.

[Cliff R]

"With fuel costs going skyward, I'm curious what kind of fuel economy other EFI or carbed cars w/overdive trans are getting?"

Not a Pontiac, but my 67 Impala SS got 18-20 mpg's average, just "normal" driving. Usually around 23-24mpg's highway.

It was powered by a 300hp 327 engine (built to stock specs with zero deck height and .030" overbore), 1987 4L60 trans, non-LU converter, 3.31 gears. The engine used the stock intake and 1969 Chevy q-jet (custom tuned), and a custom tuned HEI distributor.

I ran it for a while with a lock-up converter, and hated it. It was just nicer to drive all the way around with non-LU.......Cliff

[Paul Westcott]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

"With fuel costs going skyward, I'm curious what kind of fuel economy other EFI or carbed cars w/overdive trans are getting?"

Not a Pontiac, but my 67 Impala SS got 18-20 mpg's average, just "normal" driving. Usually around 23-24mpg's highway.

It was powered by a 300hp 327 engine (built to stock specs with zero deck height and .030" overbore), 1987 4L60 trans, non-LU converter, 3.31 gears. The engine used the stock intake and 1969 Chevy q-jet (custom tuned), and a custom tuned HEI distributor.

I ran it for a while with a lock-up converter, and hated it. It was just nicer to drive all the way around with non-LU.......Cliff

Impressive numbers, Cliff. Your tuning expertise clearly shows! It must not have worked very hard in 4th OD...

Changing the subject here a bit, but what didn't you like about the lock up converter?

[Paul Westcott]

Originally Posted by krisr

Are you using the 28lb/hr LS1 injector?? You may find they're a bit small for your engine. I had tried them on my 400 inch motor and the duty cycle hit 100% at about 4000rpm. I upgraded to the 36lb/hr EV6 injector instead and that seem to be the winning ticket for me. The spray pattern difference between the EV1 (pintle cap style) and the EV6 (disc style) is enormous! I managed to strip a fair amount of fuel out of idle and cruise and even get mine to idle leaner using the same amount of timing just from the difference in atomisation and the reduction of fuel puddling.

One day I will be upgrading to the MS3 setup and going full sequential now i've got these EV6 injectors in. Previously using EV1's I didn't see much point in sequential but now I should be able to get really accurate control.

krisr-

I am using the newer 36 lb./hr. disc style injectors. Never a lack of fuel that I can detect, even at WOT down the track. Very manageable idle (750-800 RPM) and cruise manners. MS3 and full sequential with an EDIS trigger may be down the road for me, but everything is working pretty well as is with MS2. It just keeps getting better the more we fine tune it!

[lust4speed]

A little off the subject, but our friend that drove his '66 GTO (orange) to Pontiac Heaven had problems with the fuel super heating and turning to vapor. His regulator just buzzed with the vapor bubbles going through it. His fuel pressure dropped from a regulated 45 lbs to only 30 lbs and his engine shut down. Since we had to sit on the side the road with him until things cooled off, I would like to find a fix for his problem. He's running an Aeromotive pump and regulator. One of the guys said he should be running 65 lbs pressure, but I don't think the current pump is capable. Only way we got him home was to wrap the regulator with a wet towel to lower temps.

I'm EFI illiterate - the unit looks like a Demon carb with the injectors hid under the covers that look like fuel bowls. I guess the unit doesn't make a difference at this point because the problem was fuel delivery. He hadn't experienced prior problems, but this was a trial by fire cruising from SoCal across the desert during the hottest part of the day.

Anyone else have hot fuel problems with their systems?

[Cliff R]

"Impressive numbers, Cliff. Your tuning expertise clearly shows! It must not have worked very hard in 4th OD...

Changing the subject here a bit, but what didn't you like about the lock up converter?"

Several things, but since we're off subject a tad I'll be brief. I ran it with a custom built LU converter first, for about 1000 miles. I set it up with TCI's LU "kit" (tried direct wiring grounding on a 4th gear pressure switch as well), so it only locked up in OD and at part throttle, just like factory units. Coasting and heavy/full throttle it unlocked.

With a vehicle over 4000lbs (with a small engine), going into OD and LU below about 50mph lugged the engine a bit. If you encountered a steep grade, the throttle angle increase quickly and unlocked the unit. Driving in traffic around 34-50mph, it was constantly locking in and out as you were on and off the gas.

On the highway, encountering steep grades required enough throttle it would unlock, and it needed to. The little engine just LOVED a bit of torque multiplication from the converter for most driving situations. With the TCC locked up, one just encountered too many situations where it didn't enjoy the direct coupled deal.

I purchased a custom non-LU converter, and the engine, vehicle, and operator LOVED it.

It was very tight for "normal" driving, and didn't effect fuel economy that I could tell. If anything, for most driving situations, it got better. No more "lugging" the engine, no locking in and out.

I would add that I tried wiring it directly to avoid the locking in and out deal, grounded on a 4th gear pressure switch so it only locked-up in high gear. That deal was even worse.

I blew up the converter and had to replace it, was a bit pissed at the time, but the end results was a LOT better with the non-LU unit.

As far as fuel injection goes, when you can tune a Q-jet and HEI distributor correctly for one of these vehicles, about the only difference is that I have to pat the gas once or twice for cold starts with the carburetor set-up.

Not trying to downplay fuel injection in any way, but I'll save them for forced induction set-ups where running a carburetor becomes a lesson in humility!......Cliff

[TheMonkey]

I am running MS3 and it is really incredible. Fully sequential injection can be adjusted to inject anytime during the valvetrain cycle you want to adjust idle. Some of the new tuning techniques in the new software make it sooo easy to fine tune. I do not have many miles on yet, still going through shakedowns - but the fuel/spark tune is not frustrating - it is fun and I have learned a ton.

New MS3 has so many features. There is a hydraulic pressure switch I found to put inline on my clutch for launch control. Mash the gas pedal and motor waits for you at prescribed RPM, side step the clutch and hang on. Soft rev limited with fuel and spark in missed shifts nice insurance.

Here's the thing though.... I'm not sure I would recommend it unless you want a huge education that can potentially take years. I would have had my project done and driving so much sooner if I just gave Cliff a call. I did not start getting gray hair until I tackled EFI. It's nice now that it's all set up, but it took a long time.

Originally Posted by lust4speed

...Since we had to sit on the side the road with him until things cooled off, I would like to find a fix for his problem. He's running an Aeromotive pump and regulator....

There is bunch of info at protouring site on this. I read an article in Hod Rod magazine about a guy this happened to, and put a cooler of ice in the trunk with a big coil in it to run fuel through to get him home. If you got home with just a wet rag on reg, he prob does not need too drastic of a change (unless going to drive in hotter climate). Few potential fixes:

- Aeromotive pump might be too big. Size it appropriately for required fuel. A lot of people that have this problem were using that pump. It might pump so much fuel through the return system that it radiates heat through the pump, through the hot fuel rails, and with all the friction through the lines and regulator. It returns it to the tank HOT so it's ready to cycle again and get hotter through the same routine until it locks. Smaller pump will not cycle this so fast and some have fixed the problem simply with a smaller pump. Did you feel gas tank when it vapor locked?

- Inline fuel cooler on frame rail. Check Summit.

- If fuel system is mounted directly to manifold or heads (rails, regulator), use a heat shield gasket when bolted down so the system does not heat soak. McMaster sells some material that can be used for this - I don't have the part number handy, but stuff is only like 1/16" thick. My old 1980 BMW uses some stuff like this to mount the injectors (Also on Megasquirt).

- Use return-less system in front of the firewall. Dead head from the regulator to rails and injectors from firewall forward. The return system won't radiate heat from engine compartment then.

- Check if fuel system is too close to exhaust

- Was motor running hot? Lean or too much advance will heat up more than just the coolant.

[Paul Westcott]

I'm long overdue for an update to my update...

Added DIY custom converter lock up control system, controlled via Megasquirt ECU. Provides full manual override and programmed converter lock up without need for vacuum switch. Eliminates lock up "hunting" at low speed/4th gear cruise.

Fine tuning of street A/F and timing/advance to maximize drivability and fuel economy continues. Hope to do a sustained highway cruise test and push closer to 20 MPG.

Improved drag strip launch tuning for better 60 ft. times. ET consistency range over 10 runs and varying track conditions/temps at 2014 Pontiac Heaven race event: 12.95 to 13.12. (ET range was 12.95 to 13.05 in competition) I survived 5 rounds before redlighting in the final... D'oh!

----------

[Fishin2Deep4U]

I too am running a MS3 setup. I am using the edelbrock torker based Victor efi. I am using 2010 camaro fuel components. LS3 injectors, camaro fuel module, dead headed fuel system running at 4 bar.

I am planning on incorporating a pwm controller from a GM of Ford product. With the 455, TH400, and 2.56 rear end, the mileage was around 19mpg. I want to go to a 4L80E and deeper rear gears for more fun factor.

I need a better way to mount the trigger wheel for full sequential. Right now I am batch firing the injectors and running a locked HEI.

Dave