[73 bird]

I want to put an overdrive in my car and trying to decide between 200-4r or 700-r4. I know the 200-4r bolts to engine and is an easier swap but I have a 700-r4 and adaptor plate. I'm running a stout 455, 350 turbo with shift kit and 3000 stall torque convertor, and 3.73 gears. I hit the track 4 or 5 times a year on test and tune night with MT drag radials. I need a trans that will hold up. Trying to keep costs down as much as possible and still get what I need. Appreciate any suggestions.

[bigt76_98]

200's first gear is better for you 3.73 and doesnt have a steep 1-2 change like the 700 has, and 700 lockup stalls are decent price especially if you want a good one for your 455;s torque. 200's also dont have a electronics since there non lockup but its not that hard to hook up on a 700 anyway. if you already have the 700 and adapter thats good but is it stock? 700 are good but they need a few changes to hold up on big torque. lockups nice on the highway but since you have low gears already most guys would say go with the 200r because the higher first gear,non electronics. but you do have the 700 on hand but consider if its stock and buying a good stall in there also

[73 bird]

I plan to build and upgrade whatever I go with and possibly go to 4.11 gears. I plan to use a 10" lockup convertor either way. Kinda leaning toward the 200-4r just need to be sure it can be built to hold up and wonder if there will be a big cost difference between them.

[bigt76_98]

if your building than i think the cost is fairy close some internal improvments in the 700 but it still lacks alot for high performance for both. and 200 has same driveshaft length as what you already have . you'd have to talk to a tranny guy to find out the cost differences for a total hp rebuild but id go for the 200 if your building it up and going to 4.11

[Sirrotica]

I guess if it depends if you want to consider a transmission as a wear item like tires or brakes that need changed regularly. A 4L80E will probably last many hard miles and come back for more, depends on what you want, in harsh usage either transmission listed will be a wear item. The original design of each was never meant to exceed over 300 ft.lbs. of torque whereas the 4L80E was designed with T400 parts primarily with an OD and was designed for 440 ft. lbs. of torque. A extreme duty 2004R ($2400) will handle 550 HP whereas a mildly reworked 4L80E ($2250) will handle 750 HP. For me the extra cost upfront of a 4L80E will actually save money in the long run over either of the other transmissions. Your choice and your car...............

Link to 2004R T400 choices and advantages of a 4L80E: http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=687503

[73 bird]

That got me thinking about the 4L80E. Will definitely look into it. Which one eats the most horsepower? Not too concerned about going faster, but hate to see the car be slower.

[72LuxuryLeMansLa.]

Check out this guys site, he is a member here and goes by the name jakeshoe http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...r.php?u=156899. He has a bunch of good info that should help you decide what to do.

http://www.jakesperformance.com/Home_Page.html

Karl

[73 bird]

Originally Posted by 72LuxuryLeMansLa.

Check out this guys site, he is a member here and goes by the name jakeshoe http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...r.php?u=156899. He has a bunch of good info that should help you decide what to do.

http://www.jakesperformance.com/Home_Page.html

Karl

Thanks for the link. Good info there.

[Joel Koontz]

The 2004R(2.74) and 700R4(3.06) both have a steeper first gear than a TH350(2.52) I cannot imagine that you would want either of them and 4.11 gears behind a 455 in a street car.

Both can use a lock up, or a non-lock up, converter.

Of those two I would probably go with a built 2004R, but as Sirrotica mentioned, either of them will probably wear out, and/or fail behind a high torque engine in a fairly heavy car. It is probably not a matter of IF it will wear out/fail, just when.

A near stock 4L80E is very strong and would probably last tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of miles. The ratios are the same as a TH-400 except it has .75 OD. If may be more expensive up front, but in the long run it will almost certainly be the most cost effective.

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by Joel Koontz

The 2004R(2.74) and 700R4(3.06) both have a steeper first gear than a TH350(2.52) I cannot imagine that you would want either of them and 4.11 gears behind a 455 in a street car.

Both can use a lock up, or a non-lock up, converter.

Of those two I would probably go with a built 2004R, but as Sirrotica mentioned, either of them will probably wear out, and/or fail behind a high torque engine in a fairly heavy car. It is probably not a matter of IF it will wear out/fail, just when.

A near stock 4L80E is very strong and would probably last tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of miles. The ratios are the same as a TH-400 except it has .75 OD. If may be more expensive up front, but in the long run it will almost certainly be the most cost effective.

Finally someone that looks ahead and looks at the overall picture rather than how cheap can I get the car on the road, even if it won't last. The adage that there's never enough time or money to do it right the first time, but there's always time and money to do it twice rings so true in this instance.

Every time there are one of these threads someone chimes in and says they have had one in their car for five years without breaking it. Five years = 5,000-10,000 miles in most classic cars, not really impressive to me, It's funny that in years past the standard was the T400 and if you had a T350 your tranny was suspect to break prematurely. Now people are willing to remove a 400 or a 350 and replace it with a 200 or a 700, knowing full well that these transmissions were never designed to withstand any more torque than a 305 chevy makes. The 4L80E is basically a T400 with a overdrive designed into it, only makes sense to me to build stronger, rather than build weaker. If you build more power into your combo in the future your covered, not sweating whether your 200 is gonna crap out first time you stand on your new combo.

It is definitely more expensive to convert to a 4L80E initially, however when you have to do a 200 twice you more than pay for the initial higher cost. Plus the peace of mind of not have to worry about it breaking is worth something to me.......................

It's still your car, your wallet, and your choice.

[73 bird]

Thanks for the info guys. My thinking on the 4.11 gear was this. My buddy at the local speed shop keeps telling me the overdrive trans is going to hurt my track time. I was thinking a little more gear could offset this, mayby not. Mayby I could do a little more stall. My 60' is a little slow. I'm definitely going to consider a 4l80e. The engine is built to handle a little nitrous. That would be real iffy with a 200 or 700 trans.

[bigt76_98]

if your car is making around 500 and not much more on torque a rebuilt 200/700 with a few upgrades will handle just fine and if your spraying it not many more upgrages other than what would already be done execpt good quality stall.

[HWYSTR455]

Call one of the 2004r specialists, and ask them, it's at least part of the homework you SHOULD be doing. And when I say specialists, I'm not talking about BTO. Here's the list Jake (Jakeshoe) gave me at one point, would say it's THE list:

Chris at CKPerformance
Bruce at PTS
Lonnie at Extreme Automatics
Brian Hofer
Mike Ridings
Mike Kurtz

Any one of those people will tell you, a 2004r is going to need to be gone through every year or two.

You want real world experience? Check out the details of my OD thread, and my install of a 4L80E in the driver.

As for track times, minimal at best if there is a difference with an OD trans. The biggest impact would be the weight of a 4L80E, which is roughly 80lbs heavier.

.

[jakeshoe]

First of all, a 4L80 is NOT 80 lbs heavier. It's a out 35 heavier than a 200-4R or 700.

That list is no longer valid, Bruce @ PTS is out of business, so is Brian Hofer.

A 200-4R is cost effective and long term reliable up ~500hp/tq if built properly. It will live at more for quite some time but loses its cost effectiveness since a 4L80 has become more affordable.

The basic 4L80E build that is good for ~750hp/tq would typically also need a $500 speedo housing upgrade in a classic Pontiac, $500 controller, and $500 converter.

It's an honest $4k upgrade done properly, but you get alot of transmission for your money.

[HWYSTR455]

Thank you for the clarification Jake! As for the 80 lbs, I was going from what others have said, that it's 80 lbs heavier than the TH400...

-

[72LuxuryLeMansLa.]

Originally Posted by 73 bird

I want to put an overdrive in my car and trying to decide between 200-4r or 700-r4. I know the 200-4r bolts to engine and is an easier swap but I have a 700-r4 and adaptor plate. I'm running a stout 455, 350 turbo with shift kit and 3000 stall torque convertor, and 3.73 gears. I hit the track 4 or 5 times a year on test and tune night with MT drag radials. I need a trans that will hold up. Trying to keep costs down as much as possible and still get what I need. Appreciate any suggestions.

73bird,

What is the power level of your build, especially the torque?

Karl

[73 bird]

Originally Posted by 72LuxuryLeMansLa.

73bird,

What is the power level of your build, especially the torque?

Karl

Not sure of the torque. Guessing around 500. Put the motor in last year and went to track 3 times. Times in my sig are my best with a 1.70 60' and a little wheel spin. Planning to install slide a link bars to eliminate spinning. May spray it later. I'm getting great advice here and really thinking about the 4l80e. How much power can a good low mileage 4l80e handle. Thanks everyone.

[jakeshoe]

An unmodified 4L80E is only good for about 450 HP/TQ before you start to suffer issues with the direct clutches. A good rebuild with some minor mods will cure this issue. No aftermarket hard parts and it's good for approx 750 HP/TQ at the flywheel in a typical sub 400 lb car making power NA.

[madokie]

a700r4 is a thm 350 w lockup TQ and a 4 gear OD added to the back of the extended trans case , a 4L80 is a thm400 w same additions, i know a 700 will fit no prob in your fire bird , but the 4L80 may need floorplan mods to fit,and IIRC a computor to run it.if you get a 4L80 make sure it was a gas trans OEM not a deisel one,latter ones are designed for low RPM shifts and may need lots of mods for higher rpm shifts.a thm400 with a gear vendors bolt on OD will fit in your car w no mods other than driveshaft shortening,and is rated to 2000 hp,cost is not cheap 2000$,but easy to install and run.they also make a bolt on OD unit for the thm350,if you can find a used one priced right just shorten driveshaft and call it done.fast, simple and easy.personally i have tried those trans adapters and not liked them at all,but then i am a nit picky machinist too.good luck.

[Sirrotica]

FYI, The difference between the 4L80E diesel and gas transmissions are the convertors, the controller defines shift points not the valve body or the transmission internals. The diesel has a lower RPM stall is the only basic difference.