[jimmo]

Hi,
Im in the final stages of putting together a serpentine system on my pontiac 400. All worked out well but I did not hook up the ac compressor yet. The crude spacers in the pic are just a mock-up for measurements. I will install actual spacers and an aluminum block behind the power steering bracket once I know exact dimensions. I did a search on diy serpentine systems for pontiac but came up pretty dry.
I am looking for anyone who did one and included AC to get some ideas. I have a couple options.
1- leave the existing v belt pulley behind the new serpentine crank and run the stock compressor as it ran before or
2 -install a newer style compressor in front of the cyl head and find an existing bracket in the junkyard that I can modify to mount to the pontiac.

I sort of have #2 mocked up right now and would love to complete it that way. Its a larger diameter stubby style compressor. I think it came from a third gen firebird. The factory AC lines fit right onto it. Has anyone installed one of these on their pontiac?

Also, if anyone would like more info on what parts I used to do this let me know. It was actually less painful than I thought it would be.

[jimmo]

Only one pic made it up. Ill try to resize and get more up there

[Tom Vaught]

I would talk to the Luhn Performance People.

They post in the Boost Forum as LPI.

They have a lot of experience with brackets and are in the process of developing a supercharged system that uses a 8 Rib serpentine belt to drive the supercharger AND a/c, power steering, the alternator, and possibly a vacuum pump all on one belt.

Would be worth a PM to them to see what they have to say.

They can also be reached during the day at 414 762-2220, ask for Mark.

Tom Vaught

[russosborne]

I'd really like to know what parts you used.
I have seen a few examples online that people have done for a Pontiac, but yours looks the best by far. Most don't even use the idler pully.
Thanks,
Russ

[jimmo]

Originally Posted by russosborne

I'd really like to know what parts you used.
I have seen a few examples online that people have done for a Pontiac, but yours looks the best by far. Most don't even use the idler pully.
Thanks,
Russ

Thank You.
The crankshaft pulley is from a 1990 ford f-150 with a 302.

The water pump pulley is from a 1985 ford crown victoria with a 302

the power steering I am foggy on, I think I got it from a late 80s gm truck. it was definately a very popular power steering pulley in the junkyard and I am sure its a gm. Next time Im at the junkyard I will check to confirm.

The alternator pulley is from a 98 VW jetta. It has the prfect spacing and lines up nicely.

The center hole of the crank pulley needed to be made slightly larger on the lathe and the 4 holes redrilled for the pontiac.

The waterpump pulley only needed the four holes drilled to fit the pump.

The crank and waterpump pulleys line up perfectly when the factory AC v-pulley is used as a spacer behind the new crank pulley.

Also, the power steering and alt pulleys line up perfectly with one another but the assembly had to be spaced 17mm forward in order to line up with the new crank and waterpump positions.

The photos show washers and collars. These are only for measurements to get where I needed to be. I am now gonna make the proper spacers.

Oh, the idler is from a subaru. Any idler will work but note the large washer behind the alternator bracket. Its important to have that to minimize the flex so the belt doesnt torque the idler and ride off the front. I started it this way and let it idle a while and gave the throttle a few quick whacks and it looks like its gonna run pretty solid. Once I make the proper spacers and put some miles on it Ill post an update on how it performs.

[russosborne]

Thanks!

when you said "The crank and waterpump pulleys line up perfectly when the factory AC v-pulley is used as a spacer behind the new crank pulley."
Are you talking about the ac v pulley that is on the compressor, or is there a separate crank one? Sorry, I am still learning about Pontiacs, and my car didn't have AC.

I was going to ask what belt you used, but then I looked again at the picture in the first post and saw the number. :-) I want AC, but that likely will have to wait until the car is on the road again, so the way your setup is right now should be what I need.

Russ

[jimmo]

Originally Posted by russosborne

Thanks!

when you said "The crank and waterpump pulleys line up perfectly when the factory AC v-pulley is used as a spacer behind the new crank pulley."
Are you talking about the ac v pulley that is on the compressor, or is there a separate crank one? Sorry, I am still learning about Pontiacs, and my car didn't have AC.

I was going to ask what belt you used, but then I looked again at the picture in the first post and saw the number. :-) I want AC, but that likely will have to wait until the car is on the road again, so the way your setup is right now should be what I need.

Russ

Not the compressor. On the crank itself, an AC car has three v grooves and a non AC car has two. The ac pulley on the crank is a single v that goes on the balancer before the regular two groove pulley that drives your alt ant power steering. It is o075" thick. Without that in place my water pump pulley would be sticking .075" forward of the crank pulley. In your case of not having AC you would need to find a pulley or cut a spacer out of .075" material.
If my AC plans work, my new compressor will run with the new serp system and no longer as a stand alone system. I want to clean up the look and remove that pulley anyway so I drew up a spacer on a cad program. I was gonna price out how much it would be for someone to waterjet it for me. If that works, I can always email ya the file and you can get one cut for yourself.

On another note, the 17mm spacing I was writing about in the beginning, I may change to 5/8" spacing to keep it simple. In order to make 17mm spacers I need to mill down a chunk of aluminum to that size. To eliminate the extra machine work, 5/8" flat stock can be purchased and just cut to size as is. 5/8 is only .044" smaller than 17mm so a .044" shim behind the alt pulley will line that up and pulling the pressed on power steering pulley .044" forward will line that back up to. This would make the job real easy for anyone who doesnt have easy access to machines. Also, round spacers, 5/8" long for the alt bracket can probably be purchased from mcmaster or granger.

I think Im gonna draw the triangular block that goes behind the power steering pump and price that to be made with the waterjet too.

[FrankieT/A]

Instead of using the A/C pulley as a spacer could you use the ring that goes on the out side of the pulleys. You know like a spare one of course. Is that about the same thickness? Also my idea was to use pulleys off a later model chebby like a late eighty's small block. Manatee style impala. The way I had it figured..... I already use the A4 compressor and they come serp already, then use a reg GM alternator pulley, GM already has a serp P/S pulley, redrill a chebby W/P pulley, looks like everything would line up. Of course add idlers, the problem I was seeing was the crank pulley. How much deeper of more shallow is the ford crank pulley as compared to the two oringinal V's ? the way I had it figured was just A/C had to be shimmed to bring it in line with everything else?

I've been trying to do this for a couple years... Ill be looking forward to future posts.

[Tom Vaught]

Some very nice work there on the Single Belt system. Looks like you maintained the normal belt wrap around the crank pulley and have excellent wrap around the water pump, alternator, and P/S pulleys.

Tom Vaught

[jimmo]

Originally Posted by FrankieT/A

Instead of using the A/C pulley as a spacer could you use the ring that goes on the out side of the pulleys. You know like a spare one of course. Is that about the same thickness? Also my idea was to use pulleys off a later model chebby like a late eighty's small block. Manatee style impala. The way I had it figured..... I already use the A4 compressor and they come serp already, then use a reg GM alternator pulley, GM already has a serp P/S pulley, redrill a chebby W/P pulley, looks like everything would line up. Of course add idlers, the problem I was seeing was the crank pulley. How much deeper of more shallow is the ford crank pulley as compared to the two oringinal V's ? the way I had it figured was just A/C had to be shimmed to bring it in line with everything else?

I've been trying to do this for a couple years... Ill be looking forward to future posts.

What ring are ya talking about? Not quite sure I know what ya mean.
The late 80s chevy stuff all turn the water pump in a counter clockwise direction. The only three water pump pulleys that were equipped with grooves and not smooth were the taurus, crown vic and ford ranger.
The one from the crown vic won me over because the spacing was easily matched when used with the f-150 crank pulley. I tried using the one from the ranger but couldnt match it close enough to any of the other crank pulleys. It would have required too much spacing for my taste. Also tried several different gm crank pulleys but couldnt match that to any of the water pump pulleys. The waterpump pulley pretty much dictated the rest of the system as I didnt want to mess with the spacing of that pulley. Any of the others are a lot easier to manipulate.
I have a bucket of prolly a dozen or more left over pulley from a variety of manufacturers that I used to try multiple combos. Unless I missed something real obvious the combo I have pictured I believe is the most straight forward and easiest approach with the least amount of custom work involved. I like keeping things as simple as possible.
I did try the gm alt serp pulley but in order to line it up with the pow steering pulley, it had to have so many spacers behind it there were no more threads showing to put the nut on. The VW serp pulley fell right in line without additional spacing.

I was at the junkyard today and I think I solve my AC problem with parts from a third gen firebird. gonna mock some stuff up and Ill post some results later.

[FrankieT/A]

On the stock set up on V8 pontiac: first the A/C pulley, then the double V groove THEN the plate with just the four bolt holes and center hole.

On your set up: The four bolt plate (from the stock set up)then your serpentine pulley. That way you get the spacer and don't have to see the pulley.

[jimmo]

Originally Posted by FrankieT/A

On the stock set up on V8 pontiac: first the A/C pulley, then the double V groove THEN the plate with just the four bolt holes and center hole.

On your set up: The four bolt plate (from the stock set up)then your serpentine pulley. That way you get the spacer and don't have to see the pulley.

WOW! great info. I guess my plate was missing to begin with. It must have been trashed by a previous owner, I never knew it existed, thats why I left the AC pulley in there. Yea, if I had one I probably would have tried that. It will work if it is the same thickness.

[FrankieT/A]

Also the flange on the W/P is pressed on so you could move it in or out some. You could mock up then adjust the depth on W/P.

[jimmo]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Some very nice work there on the Single Belt system. Looks like you maintained the normal belt wrap around the crank pulley and have excellent wrap around the water pump, alternator, and P/S pulleys.

Tom Vaught

Thanks Tom,
I hope to have it done in the next couple weeks, minus the AC. I found what I need for the AC but its gonna require a lil more work.
Here is a pick of where I want it to be. I just have to figure out how to get the belt around it and not lose so much contact around the water pump. Im thinkin of adding another idler or lowering the existing one to the lower part of the pump. just thinkin out loud.

[russosborne]

Another question.

Do you intend to weld up the original holes in the pulleys you had to re-drill, or do you feel that adding 4 more holes won't hurt the strength of the pulleys?

Thanks,
Russ

[jimmo]

Originally Posted by russosborne

Another question.

Do you intend to weld up the original holes in the pulleys you had to re-drill, or do you feel that adding 4 more holes won't hurt the strength of the pulleys?

Thanks,
Russ

Not welding them. The material thickness of the new pulley is .170" and the old pontiac one is only .080". I guess thats why pontiac used a ring in the front of the pulley that was mentioned earlier but mine was missing since I got the car in the mid 90s and never had an isue. Also the new one is a smaller diameter withe less reciprocating mass. It doesnt worry me at all, Ive seen water pump pulleys with multi-hole patterns too. I cant wait to drive it and test it out. If I do have any issues, Ill post em right away but I think its gonna be fine.

Are ya collecting junkyard pulleys? Are ya building a system?
here are some pics of the power steering spacer.

[russosborne]

Thanks.

Didn't realise how thick the original or the ford is. So agreed, that shouldn't be an issue.

I'll have to look to see if mine has that ring. Probably not to hard to find or make one if I don't.

I've been wanting to do this, and seeing your setup has given me the motivation to start collecting parts. The other ones I have come across online have been "ok", but nothing to get excited about. Yours is.

Engine(heck, the whole car) is out so it should be pretty easy to get things lined up. So far I have a crank and water pump pulley coming. Found them new online for cheap enough to justify getting new. The water pump pulley may not be the right one, but for $9 it is worth a shot. The place I found doesn't go back beyond 1990 online.

I never seem to make it to the semi local pull a part. Hopefully this spring that will change. Need a few other things from there as well.

Are you a machinist? Your measurements are so precise.

Russ

[russosborne]

Oh, my alternator will be different, so I will have to see what happens there. Electric radiator fan, fuel pump, stereo, etc. So I have to go with a larger output alt. I bought a CS 130 from a Cadillac last year already with a serp belt pulley, but I didn't think about the rotation issue, so not sure if that one will work. Something I just need to sit down and play with.

Russ

[4dblnkldude]

Nice work man! You are doing alot of research for others to do this who cant afford a 1000 dollar march system. It must have taken alot of time. But its car crafting at its finest!!!!

[1966Lemans]

Plus, thank goodness, it doesn't look like a spaceship landed on the front of our classic engines.