[Tom Vaught]

There have been several discussions over the years about the 64 GTO with the 421 engine installed in Wanger's vehicles.

I came across the article that CLEARLY shows that Jim W was pulling a fast one on the press guys.

The article is in "CARS -The Automotive Magazine" Vol 7, No 1, March, 1964 issue Page 25

In the article John V it says that the magazine had access to THREE GTOs. A stock GTO with
a 4 bbl carb, a GTO with 3 2bbls, and a GTO with "extensive tuning". "All three remained STOCK with-in the letter and spirit of any tech inspection committee. The last two received "the treatment."

We have a Tri-Power GTO with NO outside mirrors, (WANGERS CAR), a Tri-Power GTO with a fender mounted mirror, and a $-bbl GTO with possibly a outside mirror but NOT a fender mounted mirror.

At least one of the Tri-Power GTOs has the 61 mechanical linkage on it (WANGERS?)

They mention that the "aluminum spokes of the steering wheel are drilled" ???

The throttle return spring is BLACK

In the top right photo on page 29, the 421 Pyramid can clearly be seen. Got you Wangers (old news) but I knew that many years ago. You can also see the 421 valve reliefs in the tops of the pistons.

The article states that the heads have 2.0" intakes and 1.76" exhausts. They say that the heads that they saw had a heat cross-over vs no cross-over like a SD head so possibly a valve swap and ported heads.

Like I said old news but the 3 cars tested is new news for me vs two cars.
Red Car, Blue Car, and 4 bbl car.

Tom Vaught


mirror, and

[BOB VIDAN]

I don't think this is new news, seen b4 somewhere I believe.

[Keith Seymore]

Tom - let me check and see if I have that one.

If not, is it something you would like for me to scan for you and post it up?

K

[War eagle]

The 'Cars The Automotive magazine' article has been kicked around here a lot. I referred to it during a discussion about 421`s in the GTO`s and the tower or pyramid that is seen in the article. Tom this is a great article and glad you found it. Every page is full of great pictorials and as you noted, the early carb linkage. I think this is the same car and linkage used for the Pontiac ad that you commented on recently. The ad mentioned the availabilty of the mechanical linkage I believe. You correctly said that the linkage was definitly not the curved style extension.
I used this article also with the discussion that included Kieth and the dribble of some sort of factory black paint on the chassis.
Others here have tryed to start a 'sticky' for a library of the 20 or so GTO, 1963-64 magazines available with few offers. It is sad because like Tom, so many are missing out on lots of great articles, and if they knew of them could find them on ebay etc.
A little off point but yet within Tom's comment, these magazines have led me to believe that 'the great conspiracy' from Pontiac Engineering and a quick 421 shuffle directly from the assembly line, is pure fiction. If you study the comments and pictorials showing the heads off, the various carb tweaks, Reddigers/Wagners handiwork, the Royal Pontiac shop that the work is done in, you soon realize that THIS was the real Pontiac Engineering. Wangers had used that shop and raced for Royal for years before the GTO. I would bet that the original 389 was laying around in the Royal shop as the photo shoot of the March 64 Cars Magazine was taking place. (The 421 in it`s place)

[Old Man Taylor]

Tom - Look at the pictures and see if you see any telltale signs of that engine having SD heads. I remember seeing an article in that era that showed a pretty clear picture of the heads. I think they were SD's, Wangers says no. But he also said no about it being a 421 for a long time.

[Tenney]

Heads on the red car are 9770716. 2.02 intakes, though.

Tough to confirm what car the motor pics in the non-C&D articles belongs to, as press photos of the exterior are used (same shot in two articles from two different publications in at least one instance, see attached).

I'm buying the engineering swap, FWIW. Can't see the sense in making that up, at this point. Eventually, someone who wasn't there will know more, as is often the case w/recorded history, but for now will take the guy who was, JW's, word on that one. Also, met a man at Meadow Brook who said he was in engineering over the weekend that the car was done - didn't do the work, though.

[War eagle]

Like OMT SAID.

[Tom Vaught]

Wareagle, a few comments for clarification:

1) I posted about the 3 cars mentioned in the article for John V's info only. We have had discussion in the past on whether the road tests of the cars were all based solely on the Red and Blue Cars. I thought I remembered there being a third car but I have not seen the magazine article for at least 25 years. It was in a SAFE spot in my reference materials.

2) There is another article showing a mechanic installing a head on the passenger side of the same vehicle in the same time period as the CARs article. It clearly shows the straight across block surface on the passenger side of a 421 engine.

3) Wangers car (having the SD Tri-Power linkage) fits the article preparation time period. Typically 3 or 4 months before the magazine goes to prints and is on the stands. Magazine is dated March so the perp work would have been in the December time frame or earlier.

4) Tenney's heads were Ported by "Birdie" as was the 64 Tri-Power intake manifold. I spoke with Birdie several times about this deal when he worked in Livonia.

5) The rear axle in Tenny's car was the original 4.33 axle installed and mentioned in the "CARS" article. It says Royal did some testing with the "4.30" gear and then "went down to a 3.90 with no ill effects". I owned that rear axle for over 30 years until I agreed to let Tenny have it for his restoration of the car.

6) "It is sad because like Tom, so many are missing out on lots of great articles, and if they knew of them could find them on ebay etc."

Yep, It is "sad" alright, but you have your cart before the horse. It IS SAD because I have a lot of information (that I have collected since the time I bought my car (NEW) and "filed away" in a safe spot and then eventually come across it again, NOT as you imply Wareagle, "it is sad" that 'Tom was not aware of the article in the first place' and needed to go on e-bay and buy a magazine to learn something new about 64 GTOs.

I KNEW Wangers was "playing a game" on the magazine guys many many years ago. I had an original magazine (where I could prove it to anyone today who knows anything at all about the difference between a 421 and a 389 engine). Problem was, I could not find the magazine article and did not remember the exact article because, as I said earlier, there were several photos taken of the conversion to the 421 engine/ "Bobcat Tune-up" at Royal and printed in different magazines in that time period.

Tom Vaught

[War eagle]

Tom you simply misinterpreted the statement about the sad part. First off you said you 'found' the article and didn`t let anyone know you lost it. I took it that you had recently acquired the article and congradulated you. As far as the sad business, your way off base. I was attempting to get readers here to donate any early magazine articles they have found to an on line library here so that others would know which old mags to search out. I assume there are 20 or so magazine titles that have articles within them and would be a great addition to collectors. I don`t have many so with all those extra eyes out there, we might find more great info.

[SD421]

Originally Posted by Tenney

Heads on the red car are 9770716. 2.02 intakes, though.

Tenney,
FWIW, in Schornack's book, he states that when he went to campaign the Goat in the late 80's, he had the motor rebuilt and the heads reworked which included installing larger intake valves.

Tom V.,
I too would like to see the article you are mentioning. Would you mind posting it?

Thanks,
Don

[Tom Vaught]

Might need to have Keith Seymore help me with that deal.

He posted up some info I had on the 64 GTO Show Cars at one time. I will have to see how his schedule is.

Ok Wareagle, I forgot where I put the CARS magazine/ 64 GTO Article years ago and while cleaning came across the article again and posted the info so that someone else can go on E-bay and possibly purchase the same CARS magazine I acquired in the early 60s.

On another note, when Milt S was allowed to campaign Mr Bill Sherman's 64 GTO in the 80s, the 1965 421 Engine that he built (with the 64 716 Head castings was a clone of the original set-up WITH IMPROVEMENTS. The early magazines readers could not believe a 13.10 quarter mile time. Milt put the car into the 10s with his later 'Improvements' to the basic engine / chassis package. Rumor is that Milt had a larger crank (not a 421 4.0" stroke) in the later race engine.

Tom Vaught

[John V.]

Tom, thanks for thinking of me! Been out of commission (computer wise) for past 2 weeks, old computer got shut down by a vicious virus, wouldn't even boot. Thought I had lost EVERYTHING. I was monumentally bummed. But after striking out at a few shops, found a guy that was able to retrieve my stuff. Long story short, this is my first day back on PY.

I hope you can get with Keith and post the article up.

Not sure I could make much of the 2.0/1.76 valves claim. There was an apparent "spec" glitch in the C&D article, in particular the supposed gear ratios in the supposed close ratio trans. I've always thought that if the gear ratios were wrong, and knowing that the close ratio was not an available option at the time the cars were built, then what confidence could I have that the trans was really close ratio? And just because the SD valve specs (or some approximation of them?) were claimed in the article, how can we be sure that wasn't "hype", a misunderstanding, or the reality? I don't think you can.

But for all of us that love the '64 GTO, it is still fun to read any of those old articles. Afterall, they had a LOT to do with the mystique that ultimately was created around the GTO and without that mystique, the marque may have been long forgotten before it ever became an icon.

On the time line, the Red & Blue cars were in Daytona around Christmas '63 as I recall it.

John Jerome had the Blue car in NY for a couple weeks prior as the C&D staff racked up mucho miles (and fell in love with it) before he drove his family down to Daytona to meet up with the rest of the participants and the Red car.

I would assume that the CARS testing, assuming it included the same Blue car that went to Daytona, likely took place BEFORE the car was sent to NY?

And who knows what changes could have occurred between test sessions? Fun to think about, but I don't ever expect to learn the "whole truth", except perhaps if there is a reference library in Heaven where you can find out who shot JFK and what were the specs of the engines in these GTOs as tested!

[War eagle]

Anything was possible back in those glorious days John. My pure belief is that when Wangers and Royal recieved one or both of the test cars assigned to Wangers, that a 421 was installed right away. This was before Xmas and late fall 63 sometime. I doubt if Delorean even had a clue and getting good print was in Wangers hands. Afterall Delorean did not need a paper trail to follow him if the swap had been discovered. Risky business anyway you put it. The time line for any magazine article plays absolutely no bearing on the swap or pictures taken at Royal. I have mags that are late 64 and are still "introducing the new 64 GTO". That was a matter of material to fill pages and prior comitments by those magazines. As I said prior, that original 389 was probably resting in the parts department, waiting for a reswap back to its origin after Wangers was thru. Nothing to do with any magazine date.

[Tom Vaught]

John, Maybe you missed one key item in the article. They said that there were 2 tri-power cars and a 4 bbl car at the test session. So where did the 4 bbl car come from and where did it go after the cars test?

Glad you got your computer back up and running again.

The "specs" are old news. Whatever the "Pontiac Guys" told them they wrote it down.

The pictures are different. Obvious that the Pyramid is there on the block in the car as are the 421 valve reliefs in the pistons. Just photographic proof that at least one car was buit for a time with a 421 engine. In the December 1963 Time frame.

Tom Vaught

[SD421]

[QUOTE=War eagle;4567240] As I said prior, that original 389 was probably resting in the parts department, waiting for a reswap back to its origin after Wangers was thru. /QUOTE]

War Eagle, are you suggesting that the original 389 motor went back into the Red car after the testing with the 421 in Florida?
According to Jim Wangers, the 421 remained in the Red car until 1968 when it was replaced with a 428 short block and then after its current restoration by Scott Tiemann now has a correct 421 shortblock with the original heads and intake under the hood.
Don

[War eagle]

No but it may have been the intent to return the original engine to it`s body after Wangers had shown off the car to the media. It just didn`t get done.

[Keith Seymore]

Welcome back, John.

Originally Posted by John V.

And who knows what changes could have occurred between test sessions? Fun to think about, but I don't ever expect to learn the "whole truth", except perhaps if there is a reference library in Heaven where you can find out who shot JFK and what were the specs of the engines in these GTOs as tested!

I agree. I have some questions about the battle of Gettysburg I'll need to add to that list....



K

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by War eagle

No but it may have been the intent to return the original engine to it`s body after Wangers had shown off the car to the media. It just didn`t get done.

Perhaps. Normally the intent is to return the vehicle to "as built" condition before it is sold.

K

[SD421]

Originally Posted by War eagle

No but it may have been the intent to return the original engine to it`s body after Wangers had shown off the car to the media. It just didn`t get done.

Givin the fact that the 421 motor was ruined during the tests that would have made more sense, yet Wangers still had them put another 421 motor into the engine bay.

So I think Wangers all along was going to keep the 421 in there no matter what.
I dont believe he was going to be out on Woodward with a car that was slower than what the magazine test reported even though the #'s were too good to be true.
This car was to be a moving advertisement for the new GTO.

FWIW,
Don

[War eagle]

Don I think that would also make sense to replace the 421 with the original motor but Wangers was not done with the car as you say. And Royal, givin their racing background and well developed mail order hi-po parts department well before the GTO, would have easily pulled another 421 from stock. And of course we don`t know which 421.
A couple of the test magazine writers stated the 4sp shifted like there was 2 first gears, with 1 and 2 super low. This sounds like too low of a rear axle ratio 3:90-4:11, and fitted with a wide ratio transmission. 10ft out of the hole and that 421 would have been pegged plus!! Especially with the stock redlines. The final gear would have been extremely hard on any engine especially doing a long distance highway run. Most of the guys in the 60`s after finding out that they had made a mistake with 3:90`s or 4:11`s and wide ratio trans , simply added huge diameter tires to the rear and or ran the 1/4 starting in 2nd or 3rd. Wangers on the other hand could do neither as he was under the watch of the magazines to present a car right off the showroom floor. So did Wangers miss calculate the final gear set? (later close ratio trans would have helped a bunch) However one of the cars is shown with larger 15in tires at the roundy round track.