[Tom Vaught]

Throughout your whole post Lynn you keep bringing up that "Ford Engineer" comment, but to hear Mike Leech, Engineers are lower than whale chit and don't know anything.

Very very few Pontiac Guys have stepped up to the RA-V Design Engine.

Totally agree that Heat is a very big issue with engine durability.

Tom Vaught

[mike leech]

Quote:
Throughout your whole post Lynn you keep bringing up that "Ford Engineer" comment, but to hear Mike Leech, Engineers are lower than whale chit and don't know anything.

Thats not at all what i said. SOME are good. SOME are blowhards. A person calling themselves an engineer doesn't make them any smarter or less smart than they really are. I'm positive there are good and bad in all professions. Engineering is one field where ALL of the bad ones think they are smarter than everyone else, and live their life trying to prove it.

[mike leech]

in reading lynns post he mentioned Engineers...fyi I don't think either of us were referring to you.

[PONTIAC DUDE]

Originally Posted by johnta1

They originally had a price.

$19,500 for the 750 HP engine looks like now.

Call them for a price on the ~1000 HP engine?



Still would look better between the frame rails of your car than that chevy crap.

So that's a 1000hp Pump gas single 4 bbl Pontiac engine?

Looks like it takes compression, a sheet metal intake with 2-4's to achieve the same?

Yea. I want to see the TOAL PACKAGE PRICE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why post a combo that has absolutely no info or pricing. Makes totally no sense.

[Bill Bolin]

Originally Posted by Elarson

Maybe that is the actual DNA of a Pontiac guy: Willing to spend more money to be "Different".

Tom Vaught



Bingo!
Eric

It depends on someones "definition" of being different. I took a lot of grief for being "different". Of course, I had a different goal with mine......and I didn't care about others opinions.

[NHRASuperStock455SD]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Throughout your whole post Lynn you keep bringing up that "Ford Engineer" comment, but to hear Mike Leech, Engineers are lower than whale chit and don't know anything.

Very very few Pontiac Guys have stepped up to the RA-V Design Engine.

Totally agree that Heat is a very big issue with engine durability.

Tom Vaught

I really dont understand your comment, however, I think the Ford Engineering staffs were are always way ahead of their time and competition. (It is the President of Ford hired from Chevrolet who changed things.) I believe Ford today is still way ahead of the now existing Obama Motors. John Delorean, however expanded the 1955 Pontiac V8 into what we still know as a remarkable engine.

If you look at todays LS-1(which was also the designation for the RA-IV), and the LS-7, I think you will see like I do many Ford contributions and many from the old Pontiac designs.

If you want a small engine capable of good economy my 4.9 with boost is the way to go. I am going to do several Pontiac cars with this engine with as many OEM parts as possible. Thiis will be upgraded to 6 speed transmissions and a forged crank. I think we can do a 750HP engine that will get well over 20-25MPG in an older Pontiac chassis. Why buy a $30k car when a Catalina can do it?

We all think that Ed's 2200HP is virtually unusable in his car on the street. If I gave him my 455SD it would take him 4 years to hook that engine up in his car at 700HP close to what I do. Now what about 1000HP? Almost unmanagable especially on the street. It will take him years to maximize 2200HP. We are still learning in racing maximizing 700HP.

The cheapest way to get more HP than you can ever need on the street is a big cubic inch street engine normally aspirated. Turbo engines are nice, but they are way more expensive if you do them right. A good 455 block with RAV heads is more power than most street guys can deal with. My street engine I think with valve spring would do close to 900HP. Tony said the heads were flowing enough for 1000HP. This was a mild street port job with a stock intake. This would handle any of your 1000HP SC Mustangs. Of course the mustangs have better gas mileage, co se go the 4.9L route.

Me? I am building a 406 CID RAV with a 8.8 deck 10,000 RPM Screaming Demon with two 1150dominators and a sheet metal intake.

[BruceWilkie]

Tom sorry to go off topic here

Lynn, I agree on the cooling and reverse flow. This post I did has alot of info on how the factory did it vs how I planned to do it.

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=634494

I havent tested yet but confident its one of the ways you can do it. Very little water actually flows thru the block on the 55-59 setup.

Now that I've bogged myself down doing some serious port work on my 6x's I've had a chance to think of an alternative. I'm still going to use my 59 timing cover and pump. But instead of connecting to the front of the head I'm going to install 8 tubes into the water jacket just below the valve cover and use an outer tube similar function as EFI rail to connect the tubes to and direct coolant to each valve guide area with water exiting both manifold face outlet holes.(via stock crossover and plumbing from rear holes(heater hose holes) to front crossover) This will behave similar(better maybe) to the 55-59 internal gusher tubes. I may add a 9th feed at the center head bolt area. Something you wouldnt have to do with your RAV ex arrangement.

http://www.pontiacsafari.com/EngineCooling/index.htm This gives a very good overview of the original factory reverse cool setup. Also shows the changes for 1960 and up conventional cooling. Take special note of block face hole usage and difference in deck drilling between 55-59 vs 60 and up.

[63Banshee]

Resurrecting this thread to see who's minds and opinions have changed.

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

A lot of members in the race section know that the Traditional Pontiac Bore Spacing is 4.625" between the cylinders.

A little History first:

1) When the Traditional Pontiac V-8 Engine was first designed (as a 287 cid engine) the Bore Spacing was 4.625" and the Piston Bore was 3.75" so the distance between the cylinder bores that the Pontiac Designers
and Engineers designed for was .870" so there was a lot of meat between the cylinders.

2) Pontiac Engineers, when they changed the bore dimension, decided to increase the bore to 3.9375",
a 5% increase in the bore size. This changed the design distance between the actual cylinder walls was
now .683" (still well over .500" of meat to seal the gasket.

3) Pontiac Engineers changed the bore again in 1958 to 4.0625" and it stayed there for all of the 3.00"
main engines until 1967. The design distance between the actual cylinder walls was now .558" (again,
over .500" of meat between the cylinders. You rarely ever heard of a Pontiac engine with a head gasket
failure).

4) The large main engines, beginning with the 421 CID engine, increase the bore diameter a few more times. The 421 Engine had a bore of 4.093" and a design distance between the actual cylinder walls was .527".
We are STILL over .500" of meat between the holes!

5) The numbers for the 428, 455, 455 +.060 engines were: 428= .500", 455= .465, and the 455 +.060"= .410" so with the worst case factory engine we have reduced the gasket sealing capability of the engine from the 317 engine distance of .683" to the 455+.060" distance to .410" or a reduction of 40% and the 370 engine distance of .558" to the 455+.060" distance to .410" or a reduction of 26% of gasket sealing capability.

6) So now we enter the "Aftermarket Block" phase and and bump the bore up to a very common 4.350"
Bore size. Now we have .270" of meat between the cylinders to seal the head gasket material. To repeat,
the Pontiac Engineers, (who were very smart Engine Engineers) started out at .870" and now the Racers
have reduced that dimension over the years to .270"!!!!!!!!!!! (AND THIS IS BEFORE BOOST!)

7) No Pontiac Engineer would have allowed this to happen. The last engine Pontiac Engineers signed off on
was designed with a minimum of .410" of meat between the cylinders under worst case over-bore conditions.

8) I think that Mac McKeller would have said: The Gasket Sealing distance can be no less than .410" or I will
not sign off on it". Using that logic, with the new aftermarket blocks, the Bore Spacing would have to grow to 4.8" (with a max piston bore of 4.390") to meet the guidelines.

Let the racers continue to bump up the bore to 4.5" or bigger but the Pontiac Enthusiast who wanted a Durable Block Design would have gone to the 4.8" bore spacing at some point if Pontiac Engineering had been allowed
to do their jobs.

So my vote would be, ALLOW THE BLOCK BORE SPACING TO GROW TO 4.8" and forget about the 'rule" that the bore spacing must be 4.625" to be a "Pontiac Engine." I would love to have a 4.8" Bore Spacing, Short Deck, 4.4" bore, 3.5" boosted engine to play with.

Everyone today is running 'Pontiac Heads" that do not resemble a previous design Pontiac head, CV-1 heads are a good example. One could say, "if you can't screw it down with stock Pontiac Head Bolts (at the Pontiac Bolt Length) it is not a Pontiac Head."

That deal would disqualify much every aftermarket Pontiac Head out there.

So my vote would be (as we move into the Boost World, where Ford has been forever) allow the Aftermarket Block guys the option to offer a 4.8" bore spacing block, call it a "Next Generation" Pontiac Engine Design, and let's go racing.

Tom Vaught



























Doing a bit of math with different Bore Diameters:

[Dragncar]

Its all about bore spacing. Its the reason we can not quite keep up with the Chevy's, Fords and Mopars in the end. No other way around it. Boost helps but NA, forget about it.
They have big blocks, we have a "mid block". Biggest head gasket wins.

[63Banshee]

Block deck has huge influence on head stability and subsequently head gasket survival.

[Stan Weiss]

Minimum Gasket Sealing distance comes down to what is the engine being used for and what the block design.

Pro Stock is a 4.9 Bore Spacing limit. These are cast iron blocks. For many years they have run 4.72" to 4.75" bores. This is N/A and they make just under 3 HP per ci.

Stan

[Half-Inch Stud]

This engineer say "jerk the bores to be out-of-inline", and you will reveal what fits really well in the stock Crank pitch// borespace. 5" bores. Drops Mouse, sipsPomegranite wine.

[tom s]

7 years later where are any N/A RA Vs making big HP per CI that has been backed up on the strip?Tom

[chiefbigb]

I have one I'm working on but it's only halfway there

[mgarblik]

Originally Posted by 63Banshee

Block deck has huge influence on head stability and subsequently head gasket survival.

The block is important certainly, but don't forget the head bolted down to it. Case in point: Our very tall and stiff billet head has survived at 3000+ HP on both aluminum and iron IA II's for 8 years on one pair of head gaskets. No compression leak witness marks. That's with the stock 10 head bolt layout that everyone said could never be done. Clamp load is what it's all about. 9/16" studs torqued to 135 PSI. A solid head with lots of meat around every head bolt column. Use a light, flimsy aluminum head on an iron block with long, wimpy 1/2" studs at 95 ft. lbs and all you get is 10 pulled-up areas around each head stud and leaks all around, especially where the heat concentration is in the paired exhaust ports. Above 1000 HP, your asking allot of the head gasket IMO. Bore spacing doesn't help, but I am not convinced 4.840, or even 5.00" alone is an instant cure.

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by mgarblik

The block is important certainly, but don't forget the head bolted down to it. Case in point: Our very tall and stiff billet head has survived at 3000+ HP on both aluminum and iron IA II's for 8 years on one pair of head gaskets. No compression leak witness marks. That's with the stock 10 head bolt layout that everyone said could never be done. Clamp load is what it's all about. 9/16" studs torqued to 135 PSI. A solid head with lots of meat around every head bolt column. Use a light, flimsy aluminum head on an iron block with long, wimpy 1/2" studs at 95 ft. lbs and all you get is 10 pulled-up areas around each head stud and leaks all around, especially where the heat concentration is in the paired exhaust ports. Above 1000 HP, your asking allot of the head gasket IMO. Bore spacing doesn't help, but I am not convinced 4.840, or even 5.00" alone is an instant cure.

One pair of head gaskets for 8 years, on and off with that kind of power. Thats interesting.
Your 9/16 studs at 135lbs. They don't pull up the deck in spots. Just because your head is so solid and stiff?
The separate exhaust has got to help a bunch too.

[Elarson]

The stiff head bridges across between bolts much better and applies better loading out in the unbolted areas.
Separate exhaust ports are a huge help to even out the temperature related distortions.
We had Darton custom-make replaceable sleeves for us so that we could fix cylinders at the track. Reverse Murphy's law....were prepared for that so we've never needed that. Sleeve OD is 4.5 so we only have .12 wall between cylinders but with the solid block, that's ok. The sleeve upper rim has a flat on both sides so they lock into their neighbor. O-ring grooves are in the upper rim of the sleeve. The counterbore depth in the block for the sleeve upper rim is a little short so that the sleeve stands proud of the deck by a couple thousandths assuring that we fully clamp around the cylinder.

Eric

[Elarson]

And yes, the block will flex up around the bolts but can only go a few thousandths so it won't permanently yield. And the replaceable sleeves float in the block slightly so they're less affected by block bore distortion.

Eric

[slowbird]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

Its all about bore spacing. Its the reason we can not quite keep up with the Chevy's, Fords and Mopars in the end. No other way around it. Boost helps but NA, forget about it.
They have big blocks, we have a "mid block". Biggest head gasket wins.

If it's all about BS why are sbc and sbf doing better than us?

[GTOGEORGE]

Originally Posted by slowbird

If it's all about BS why are sbc and sbf doing better than us?

I’m not sure that Cheby is doing that much better then us there are just MORE of them! SH_T others had to change the bore spacing on the big blocks to make real hp, once you change the bore space it’s not a Cheby any more. We (Pontiac Racers) are set in our ways and don’t like change. Our block is what it is......10 head bolts, 4.62” bore spacing, HELL people (not racers) are whining about the billet, Warp type heads .....it’s not a Pontiac head even though it bolts to a REAL Pontiac block, now these people (non racers) are whining about changing the bore spacing.....give me a break! We’ll never catch the so called Cheby racers we are out numbered and that ain’t changing! PRTTF! ( Pontiac Racers To The Front)!


GTO George