[dci]

I ask this question because for years all I ever hear from guy's are excuses why traditional Pontiac's cannot make big power. With the introduction of the new LS series engines from GM many of these excuses are being proven unsubstantial.

#1 Bore spacing, Pontiac 4.620" LS 4.400"
#2 Bore size, Pontiac up to 4.250" factory block 4.420" aftermarket block LS 4.20"
#3 Deck height Pontiac 10.240" (very good deck height for cubic inches) LS aftermarket blocks getting taller every day for
more cubic inches. (currently cubic inch limited)
#4 Head bolts per cylinder Pontiac factory blocks 4 per, aftermarket block up to 6 per
LS factory block 4 per, aftermarket blocks 6 per
#5 Cam bore Pontiac factory block 48 mm aftermarket block up to 55mm
LS factory block 55mm, aftermarket block up to 60mm
#6 Cylinder heads Pontiac in line valves, LS inline valves


These are just some of the things that come to the top of my mind and I'm sure there are more. SO what is really holding us back as a group. Could it be that we have been told for so long that it cannot be done???? Or is it because we have had to make factory parts work for so long that we still have not advanced mentally????? Is it because of the income level of the average Pontiac owner????? I don't really know, that's why I'm starting this thread. It seems as a group that we are way behind in the performance and race engine technology curve, and I really would like to see us start to advance. What in your opinion do think it will take to help advance our small, but proud group to the next level? The LS engines have advanced very quickly with their limitations, and there is in my opinion no reason that Traditional Pontiac engines cannot keep up with them or even exceed them.



Don Johnston
DCI MOTORSPORTS LLC
330-850-5050 shop
330-628-3354 cell
Designer of the DCI Tiger Heads and the NEW DCI Ram Air 5 Heads !!!!!!!!

[RAMAIR RICK]

Don, don't you know ALL the KOOL KIDS are doing it, that is why.

IF you look at the average Pontiac owner, their engine horsepower range is about 400-600hp. That is the broad market of the average Pontiac owner. 6X-8 heads ported and MAYBE some Kauffman D ports with some porting, or a budget Edelbrock head, lightly worked. After that range of the AVERAGE Pontiac owner are the guys and gals that actually want to go fast. That GROUP is a VERY SMALL group. The Mindset, MONEY and drive to THRIVE and be Competitive, is for this VERY SMALL Group. From that SMALL GROUP, are the guys that APPLY WHATEVER IT TAKES TO BE VERY COMPETITIVE with all of the Brand X engines. And we ALL CHEER for them, and they are on the boards here for the most part, few as they are, they are VERY VERY FAST, and THEY Do and spend and build WHATEVER IT TAKES the make THEIR LOVE of Pontiacs PROVE the NOT only themselves that THEY could do it, BUT to ALSO show the Brand X and the WORLD that the did it with an UNDERDOG engine, a PONTIAC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[gene simmons]

Just from reading other threads,a few things i had seen posted that could be a contributor would be,head design,valvetrain,short cylinders,mains too big,cam tunnel not able to go 60mm,throughout Then there is the most important one,pontiac people are broke azz!
Thanks for posting comparisons with the LS,i never looked into it before.

[John Langer]

Deck height is crap, cylinder length is crap, main bearing size is crap, amount of head bolts vs bore spacing is crap, push rod length is crap, bore vs stroke ratio is crap, piston speed is crap, bearing speed is crap,
Comparing a Pontiac to an LS motor isnt good since I dont know of any max effort ls motors that make more steam then a max effort Pontiac. Now if they are the same size, the above contribute to the Pontiacs lack of performance.

[slowbird]

Originally Posted by John Langer

Deck height is crap, cylinder length is crap, main bearing size is crap, amount of head bolts vs bore spacing is crap, push rod length is crap, bore vs stroke ratio is crap, piston speed is crap, bearing speed is crap,
Comparing a Pontiac to an LS motor isnt good since I dont know of any max effort ls motors that make more steam then a max effort Pontiac. Now if they are the same size, the above contribute to the Pontiacs lack of performance.

Imo that about sums it up, end of story.

[v869tr6]

Are you talking about the N/A racers or all the people that will someday see the benefits of turbo's

Your ram air 5 heads with

6 head bolt option, how is this done? Could a factory block be drilled and tapped?

A big soft chamber?? with the valve as far away from the piston as possible, ls engines have flat top pistons and I believe this is a huge part of why they live with big boost.

A turbo friendly exhaust valve

A price point to sell a bunch of heads, out of the box ports, valve train stuff that would support a moderate turbo cam. 240 @ 0.050" 0.600" lift

Good alum to take the heat.

A head like that plus about 20 psi boost would likely make a bunch of trans and rear end builders happy, LOL

[dci]

I would say 2.3 HP per cube is pretty impressive. Here is a video on youtube of one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vr_gl2cgl1o


Don Johnston
DCI MOTORSPORTS LLC
330-850-5050 shop
330-628-3354 cell
Designer of the DCI Tiger Heads and the NEW DCI Ram Air 5 Heads !!!!!!!!

[dci]

I would say 2.3 HP per cube is pretty impressive. Here is a video on youtube of one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vr_gl2cgl1o


Don Johnston
DCI MOTORSPORTS LLC
330-850-5050 shop
330-628-3354 cell
Designer of the DCI Tiger Heads and the NEW DCI Ram Air 5 Heads !!!!!!!!

[ho428]

I race against LS engines all the time, hp to hp builds we're about equal while my engine seems to be a bit more durable, when something's wrong it lets me know, when an LS has something wrong it lets go. Usually at least 1-2 oil downs per weekend from an LS spewing it's guts.
There are a couple that crank out more hp and it shows, but I'm better off the corners than most, probably have more tq. Equal hp engines top end (rpm) me and also brake later due to a lot less weight.
Hopefully the new 433 will take care of the RPM and HP issue, weight I can't do anything about due to big money for an aluminum Pontiac block.
Still, most are very-very surprised to see a Pontiac under the hood. Can't tell you how many encourage me to go with an LS though.
Personally I'd like an all Aluminum 454 cu in with DCI V heads on it, but I'd need a sponsor to pull that off.

[BruceWilkie]

Originally Posted by John Langer

Deck height is crap, cylinder length is crap, main bearing size is crap, amount of head bolts vs bore spacing is crap, push rod length is crap, bore vs stroke ratio is crap, piston speed is crap, bearing speed is crap,
Comparing a Pontiac to an LS motor isnt good since I dont know of any max effort ls motors that make more steam then a max effort Pontiac. Now if they are the same size, the above contribute to the Pontiacs lack of performance.

Generally agree. Also think the average guy, no sponsor type build where most races will be bracket races with an occasional grudge race, the Pontiac can be quite competitive against similar ci/weight LS combo built for same purpose.

The Pontiac still wont likely be dollar for dollar due to LS popularity but IMO not a heck of alot more for the Pontiac. I havent had time to price it out but I'm inclined to say that a 430-450 inch Pontiac that makes 750 -850 hp might be quite close in price to an LS platform with same ci and power range if your starting with new pieces.

[mgarblik]

Don, this is an interesting thread, but I think the answer lies somewhere in the $$$$$. Point by point, there is little to no advantage to an LS in raw power production and potential. But here is where the $$$ really come in. For every Don Johnson developing a great Pontiac cylinder head, there are hundreds and hundreds of similar efforts going on all over the world, with millions of dollars in development being spent. Not to mention the millions being spent by the factory for their latest production creation. Also, every other aftermarket manufacturer from camshafts to oil pans is working overtime developing every kind of race part you can imagine for the LS engine. That's where the numbers are so that's where their efforts go. When you develop your head, then you have to develop your own cam, your own intake manifold, your own headers. For the LS, hundreds of manufacturers are working solely on parts for the LS.
In my opinion the LS is no better or stronger in iron than an IA II. In aluminum, it does possibly have a slight advantage of the deep block structure and the cross-bolted mains.

[LMSRACER]

Don,
From what I've heard from Customers and Friends over the years, it has to do with the financial leap from their current Pontiac Engine to the Engine that they would like to build.

I'd agree that there are a lot of Pontiac Racers out there in the 600 to 700 HP range utilizing Stock/Modified Blocks. I also know that many of these Guys want to step it up "Some" to the tune of 800 to 850 HP.

There's the problem.
How can a Pontiac Guy Step it up affordably, compared to a Chevrolet, TO THAT LEVEL?

For Example:
A BBC Bow Tie Race Block, Part #19212197 is $2373.99 (Can go 4.600" Bores) and a Callies Dragon Slayer 4.250" Stroke, Forged & Machined in USA, Crankshaft (That Can Handle 2000 HP) IS $1289.00..

Then there's the 502 Big Block Engine Cores Floating around that can be had for less than $1000.00.

That's our problem. I hear guys saying; "It just doesn't make sense." to go the Pontiac Route. They're not looking to make 1100 HP or more, they just want to step it up a Bit. (Safely, with Durability)

I believe that if a "Pontiac Guy" could gradually step it up instead of making such a leap, that there would be a much larger group of pontiac racers out there. Think about the fact that most of the Faster Chevrolet Guys at the Weekend Drags around the country (and there are a ton of them) are probably in the 800 to 850 HP Range. All those Dragsters with Chevrolet Engines are most likely in that power level and not anywhere near the 1100 to 1200 HP Levels that we all like to hear about. They can't afford that level of performance either, considering that once you get to that level, the costs of the engine is almost the same, regardless of Brand.....

We need a "Sportsman Block" and a "Forged in USA" Crankshaft, capable of handling 1200 HP. Price it at a Similar "Price Point" as a Big Block Chevrolet, and the rest would be history.

My ,
Larry S.

[dci]

As some of you know. I build all different makes and levels of engines, and I can tell you for a fact that the cost difference when using quality new parts not used. That most makes are very close in price to build. You can build a Pontiac cheap if you can find the parts used, but that is difficult at best. You can do the same for a Chevy as well and it's allot easier because there are more used parts available. Go price a 400+ cfm Chevy set of heads. In most cases they are considerably more money than a 400+ cfm Pontiac head. For instance go to some one everyone looks up to here and look at the price of Chevy heads.

http://www.besracing.com/cylinder-he...inder-heads/gm

So dollar for dollar when building a race engine whether it's just for bracket racing or class racing it's about the same. Some things are cheaper for Pontiac's and some things are cheaper for Chevy's, but the total at the end is very similar.


Don Johnston
DCI MOTORSPORTS LLC
330-850-5050 shop
330-628-3354 cell
Designer of the DCI Tiger Heads and the NEW DCI Ram Air 5 Heads !!!!!!!!

[KO]

I have a perfect comparison from Pontiac to LS.

My brother and I have essentially the same cars.

My car has a Pontiac engine, his car has an LS.
Same type car w same type suspension (my 3rd gen F body, his 4th gen)
same transmission, same converter builder
same type intake and carburetor
he has a 427 LS with OE LS7 casting heads
mine is a 525 Pontiac w Edelbrock Performer RPM heads which basically an exact copy of Ram Air IV heads that even NHRA recognizes as so
same head porter
cars are about the same pounds per cubic inch and they run about the same at the track

[charlie66]

I think it boils down to money and people not wanting to change design because it wont look like a Pontiac anymore. Lets not forget there are less Pontiacs racing out there then Chevy or ford . If there were more demand don't you think Edelbrock would be offering more for the Pontiac guy? Its a numbers game . Just like anybody owning a 64 gto knows there are no after market hoods for there car because its a one off year. So they make them for a 65 66 67 which are all the same hood because of the three year in a row demand. Its all about the money......

[KO]

LS is not any cheaper at all

[David Holmberg]

The biggest advantage for an average user with an LS combo is the less weight on the nose, EFI and OD transmission controls that come with it.

LS engines can be cheaper, their aftermarket blocks are less, their cranks are less their heads are less (as long as you stay away from the exotic factory stuff).

IMHO, LS engines are where Pontiac engines were in the 70's and 80's. You can make them very fast mixing and matching factory parts for little money. Once you start a 1000 hp and up build everything is expensive.

[JD311]

Most LS powered cars I see are old car Pro touring/cruiser older guy crate motor stuff, or younger guy 4th/3rd gen/fox body/gbody junkyard motor,turbo etc. I always read up on ANY engine (mostly v8) just to see what people are doing regardless of make. I am always going to build a Pontiac though.

[ponjohn]

Originally Posted by David Holmberg

The biggest advantage for an average user with an LS combo is the less weight on the nose, EFI and OD transmission controls that come with it.

LS engines can be cheaper, their aftermarket blocks are less, their cranks are less their heads are less (as long as you stay away from the exotic factory stuff).

IMHO, LS engines are where Pontiac engines were in the 70's and 80's. You can make them very fast mixing and matching factory parts for little money. Once you start a 1000 hp and up build everything is expensive.

forgetting to mention that they can be had at any junk yard for a song.

[dci]

The point I guess that I am making is that the Pontiac crowd I think are self defeating. Someone tells them they cannot do it, and gives them a few excuses (I mean examples) why not, and they believe them. I think that money definitely is a contributing factor. I would be only fooling myself if I did not believe that. I started this thread to maybe get people to start thinking outside of the box. I can tell you that I see the Pontiac guy's getting left behind again with the new LS series of engines. These guy's are not going to make excuses and say their bore spacing is to small and they only have 4 bolts per cylinder yada yada yada. They will find ways to adapt and make big power with their platform guaranteed. If it does not look like an LS engine anymore, So What!! I kind of feel like a parent scolding their child and explaining to them why it's for their own good LOL.


Don Johnston
DCI MOTORSPORTS LLC
330-850-5050 shop
330-628-3354 cell
Designer of the DCI Tiger Heads and the NEW DCI Ram Air 5 Heads !!!!!!!!