[Tom Vaught]

Gut feeling says around the end of 1963.

By then the GOOD Chrysler and Ford Engines were coming on the scene in NASCAR and in Drag Racing. (HEMI and Ford SOHC).

Thoughts?

Tom V.

Competitive meaning dominates (like the HEMI or Ford SOHC did).

[Dragncar]

Sounds about right to me. After that it was more about the street to PMD. Their history is littered with "what could have been". A lot of big ides and dreams were squashed by the powers that be(chevy). Banshee, 60s Birds and GTOs stuck with 400ci and under engines while Chevy was allowed larger engines. Could not even put the 390HP 428 in our mid sized cars. Such a joke that our highest HP rated engine was in a big car.
You had to know the 1970 SOHC 427 Hemi scared the hell out of corporate.
Crazy bunch we are. We did the aftermarket stuff on our own.

[PAUL K]

They still are competitive on the street !

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

You had to know the 1970 SOHC 427 Hemi scared the hell out of corporate. Crazy bunch we are. We did the aftermarket stuff on our own.

Two very True statements there.

And when a few PONTIAC GUYS (ADAMS, NELL, etc on their own time) wanted to campaign a Pontiac Engine on a National level in SCCA, they get their hand slapped initially and "let go" by the corporate leadership later on. Chevrolet was afraid for sure.

Tom V.

[johnta1]

Start with Steve Barcak's website:

Pontiac Heaven

Then a chevy site:

History of GM Ban

Then maybe a Mopar slant:

Chrysler Racing

Especially like this quote:

Henry Ford II was openly contemptuous of the AMA and its racing ban. He, then President of the AMA, came out and openly declared that he was “going to ignore the provisions of the AMA ban, and go racing in any manner he saw fit.” Only General Motors observed its provisions to the letter.

It was widely held that Henry Ford II put together the ban to frustrate General Motors. It worked, because Chevrolet and Pontiac were fairly dormant in their racing for a couple of years. Chrysler and Ford kept their hand in by using “police” components and “export” parts; Ford also openly developed engines designed especially for NASCAR. To keep pace with Ford, whatever a NASCAR team needed, Chrysler tried to develop it.

Ford basically whined and cryed to get a ban, then did not follow it, because they knew GM would follow the ban.
(at least for a while)



Not sure Ford ever "Competitive meaning dominates (like the HEMI or Ford SOHC did)."

[Dragncar]

Its why a hate Chevy Tom. Whitmore told me those stories a long time ago. Delorean and crew had very big balls. When I see the pics of the tunnel ram that was to go on 428s for Banshees it tells you all you need to know about what PMD really wanted to do.
Tom, I heard a rumor that the Mustang was a Pontiac idea that Ford bought from PMD. Is it true ?

[mgarblik]

The end of 1963 as Tom mentions in post 1, I agree with. Pontiac, for whatever reason, actually believed the GM Corporate racing ban and brought the program to a close as directed by GM. Chevy kept pumping out the iron and had a much larger network of folks on the fringes continuing to test, develop and improve their product. When the corporate money goes away, the ability to compete on a national level even in those days gets awfully tough. That's why Arnie Beswick for example who GAVE UP A FACTORY RIDE WITH MERCURY to run Pontiac's on his own money deserve respect and admiration forever. He showed more dedication and loyalty to the brand than the brand itself. There were others, of course, the Gay's, Knafel's, and Royal, but they owned dealers and had a vested interest in keeping Pontiac's in the hearts and minds of young buyers. Fortunately, Pontiac had the right engine for the street, the marvelous "middle block", size. The stock 389-400 would murder almost any small block car on the street with it's monster torque and small block price. The 421-455 on the street, again with the huge torque could hold it's own against the big blocks from the other brands where their better breathing heads could not really be utilized on the street. It was a magical time on the street for Pontiac, not so much on the race tracks where better breathing heads, sustained high RPM's both required lots of development money that GM had banned. I agree with Tom, the end of 1963 marked the end of national on-track recognition for Pontiac and immediately began an era of dominance on the street. I still have the hand written record book of my friend's Bonneville street race record. 215 wins, 17 losses on the street! Many big blocks and Hemi cars fell victim to that dumb 2 door Bonneville.

[70 bird]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Gut feeling says around the end of 1963.

By then the GOOD Chrysler and Ford Engines were coming on the scene in NASCAR and in Drag Racing. (HEMI and Ford SOHC).

Thoughts?

Tom V.

Competitive meaning dominates (like the HEMI or Ford SOHC did).

I agree with you Tom, that's why I have no problem running a turbo, We have to do for ourselves what Pontiac wasn't aloud to do for us.

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by johnta1

Especially like this quote:
"Ford basically whined and cryed to get a ban, then did not follow it, because they knew GM would follow the ban. (at least for a while)" Not sure Ford ever "Competitive meaning dominates (like the HEMI or Ford SOHC did)."

Boy, John, that has got to be one of your best 'dumb' posts ever.

1) Ford sold Carroll Shelby FORD engines to go in his AC built body Cobra Vehicles and won the Biggest Race in the auto world Le Mans. He did this as an OWNER and previously as a DRIVER for Aston-Martin. "The highlight of his race driving career came in 1959, when he co-drove an Aston-Martin DBR1 (with Englishman Roy Salvadori) to victory in the 24 Hours of Le Mans."

2) "The Ford GT40 is a high performance American-British endurance racing car, built and designed in England (Mk I, Mk II, and Mk III) and in the United States (Mk IV), and powered by a series of AMERICAB BUILT engines, which won the 24 Hours of Le Mans four consecutive times, from 1966 to 1969 (1966 being the Mk II, 1967 the Mk IV, and 1968-1969 the oldest chassis design, the Mk I). In 1966, with Henry Ford II himself in attendance at Le Mans, the Mk II GT40 provided Ford with the first overall Le Mans victory for an American manufacturer [3][4] and the first victory for an American manufacturer at a major European race since Jimmy Murphy´s triumph with Duesenberg at the 1921 French Grand Prix."

So from 1965 to 1970 FORD DOMINATED WORLD CLASS RACING BY WINNING THE TOP RACE 5 YEARS IN A ROW.

And Mr Wallace posts "I don't think Ford was ever competitive, meaning dominating"

You really do not have a clue John.

Tom V.

[Alvin]

I find it interesting, now in hindsight, to (now) see GM drivetrain creations such as the Olds Hemi V8, and the various Pontiac OHC Mac engineering marvels that never made it into racing or general production...

Wasn't Mickey Thompson plugged in to both Ford and Pontiac Racing programs?

[Tom Vaught]

The OHC 6 cylinder engine has some serious cylinder head issues in the late 60s, so the engine was killed by GM management after the Warranty costs at the dealerships (changing out the head on 67-68 Firebirds multiple times) caused a lot of customer complaints to GM management.

Tom V.

[johnta1]

From the same wikipedia page as Tom quoted from:

In the spring of 1963, Ford reportedly received word through a European intermediary that Enzo Ferrari was interested in selling to Ford Motor Company. Ford reportedly spent several million dollars in an audit of Ferrari factory assets and in legal negotiations, only to have Ferrari unilaterally cut off talks at a late stage due to disputes about the ability to direct open wheel racing. Ferrari, who wanted to remain the sole operator of his company's motor sports division, was angered when he was told that he would not be allowed to race at the Indianapolis 500 if the deal went through since Ford fielded Indy cars using the company's engine, and didn't want competition from Ferrari. Enzo cut the deal off out of spite and Henry Ford II, enraged, directed his racing division to find a company that could build a Ferrari-beater on the world endurance-racing circuit.

How many of these cars were homologated?
(did they build any for public use?)

Also were the engines DOHC, like in your quote?
(DOHC - double over-head- camshaft)



As an aside, The GT-40 was a good lucking race car back then.

[67GTO4SPEED]

Ford's "dominance" in many racing classes coincides with GM's racing ban. Ford also dominated NASCAR manufacturer championships from 1963 - 1969 after GM pulled out of racing. It was only time history that Ford was the dominant brand, with 1965 being the high water mark - "In 1965, when Chrysler boycotted NASCAR and GM was not racing, Fords won 48 of 55 races." Kinda shooting fish in a barrel, wouldn't you say??? -lol

Overall GM has won 43 NASCAR Manufacturer Championships to Ford's 15, from 1952 - 2014. In NHRA Racing, GM has won 42 Manufacturer Championships to Ford's 6, from 1964 - 2014.

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by 67GTO4SPEED

Ford's "dominance" in many racing classes coincides with GM's racing ban. Ford also dominated NASCAR manufacturer championships from 1963 - 1969 after GM pulled out of racing. It was only time history that Ford was the dominant brand, with 1965 being the high water mark - "In 1965, when Chrysler boycotted NASCAR and GM was not racing, Fords won 48 of 55 races." Kinda shooting fish in a barrel, wouldn't you say??? -lol

Overall GM has won 43 NASCAR Manufacturer Championships to Ford's 15, from 1952 - 2014. In NHRA Racing, GM has won 42 Manufacturer Championships to Ford's 6, from 1964 - 2014.

Good data but a few other comments for you.
GM was "out of racing" but GM competed in all 3 years of the SCCA TRANS-AM racing series, with their 302 camaro, right. So your info does not match the facts. They took credit when Roger P and Mark D won.

As far as the racing in the last 15 years, GM and Chrysler went bankrupt. Remember.
Ford was spending very little money on racing and did not go bankrupt.
So the Tax Payers won the races for GM and Chrysler but lost their retirements when the companies folded.

Tom V.

[Tom McQueen]

Originally Posted by 70 bird

I agree with you Tom, that's why I have no problem running a turbo, We have to do for ourselves what Pontiac wasn't aloud to do for us.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I had a Pontiac turbo.
It was a piece of crap.

[65nss4spdGTO]

Based on the things I have read and the people I talked to, many of which are gone. 1959-1962 were the real years Pontiac dominated. By 1963, many of the top drivers already switched to other brands. Even though the 980 Headed 421 was most likely the strongest engine, rules were being changed that didn't allow it to compete on a national level. The 59 Catalina driven by Fireball Roberts completely dominated all other brands in sheer speed. The same thing continued into 1962 when you could find many Pontiac's in both Nascar and NHRA. The over the counter 421 SD parts were very hard to get, according to my dad you needed to know someone. Pontiac could see the writing on the wall and decided the street market was where the could shine with the 326ci 4bbl Tempest in 1963. My brother had one, a triple black convertible that he couldn't keep from tearing up the transaxle.

Pontiac could have dominated the ranks of NHRA Stock and Super Stock if they under-rated their engines like many other brands, but they were interested in selling cars.

Calvin Hill
Hill Performance
708-250-7420

[67GTO4SPEED]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Good data but a few other comments for you.
GM was "out of racing" but GM competed in all 3 years of the SCCA TRANS-AM racing series, with their 302 camaro, right. So your info does not match the facts. They took credit when Roger P and Mark D won.

As far as the racing in the last 15 years, GM and Chrysler went bankrupt. Remember.
Ford was spending very little money on racing and did not go bankrupt.
So the Tax Payers won the races for GM and Chrysler but lost their retirements when the companies folded.

Tom V.

You're kinda proving my point, Tom. SCCA Racing was the one of the very few racing endeavors that Chevy was factory backing in those years, and you see the results. The Boss 302 on paper should have been much more engine than the DZ 302, but that's not how it translated on the track.

As far as the bankruptcy deal, I'm not turning this discussion into a political thing, but spending money on racing WAS NOT the reason it happened.

It does make a convenient excuse as why GM has for the most part owned Ford in racing over the last 60 years though...

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by 67GTO4SPEED

You're kinda proving my point, Tom. SCCA Racing was the one of the very few racing endeavors that Chevy was factory backing in those years, and you see the results. The Boss 302 on paper should have been much more engine than the DZ 302, but that's not how it translated on the track.

As far as the bankruptcy deal, I'm not turning this discussion into a political thing, but spending money on racing WAS NOT the reason it happened.

It does make a convenient excuse as why GM has for the most part owned Ford in racing over the last 60 years though...

I don't think you proved any point really. Chevy was "Out of Racing" and yet they were Racing. Interesting. So they were Lying. Ford said "No Deal" and they followed their original statement. That is a fact.

But the original post was a discussion on when Pontiac was no longer involved in Racing, not Chevrolet's 'Flip-Flop' truths.

Tom V.

[Alvin]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

But the original post was a discussion on when Pontiac was no longer involved in Racing...

Tom V.

Well, for me personally, Pontiac was still in racing in the late '60s were I was a kid pit crewing for Dad's B/MP '62 Catalina thru the late '70s and mid '80s where we "Yoot's" street raced and drag stripped our GTOs & Trans Ams.

So, guess this does follow the main theme: Pontiac Factory Racing over early '60s w guys like yours truley picking up the banner on local drag strips, streets and cruise venues.

[67GTO4SPEED]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

But the original post was a discussion on when Pontiac was no longer involved in Racing, not Chevrolet's 'Flip-Flop' truths.

Tom V.

Yes it was, but you started talking about Ford's dominance, which only happened when GM was out of racing. That is just a fact. I'm sorry if that hurts your feelings, but you constantly hang around this board boasting about Ford's superiority to Pontiacs, while Chevy has pretty much dominated Ford in most major racing organizations for the last 60 years.

We get it - a lot of Fords are superior to an engine that is largely unchanged from the original 1955 design. They continued to evolve where Pontiac ended up pretty much stuck in time. How many 5 and 6 second Ford Y blocks or FE's are there out there? How about any Chevy W blocks? How many early (50's era) hemi's are that fast? Pontiac racers have elevated the performance of an antique engine design to VERY impressive levels. Hell, Vincent Mayeda has run a 6.35 @ 213 MPH with a 413 cu in engine with a production Pontiac block. That is a tribute to the dedication and loyalty of the fans of Pontiac. These guys do not deserve to laughed at for running slower than the 257 MPH blown door car you saw this weekend that you are so excited about. Mike Moran was running 5's in a door car at over 250 MPH over 7 years ago with a twin turbo 572 cu in BBC. Pontiac is definitely way behind the curve, and we know that.


Chevy had a lot to do with Pontiac not evolving and you said that yourself. We as Pontiac guys know the limitations, and don't constantly need to be reminded how much easier it would be to race a "catalog Ford with a 4.8 bore and stroke" or Chevy. You're not telling us anything we don't know. Some guys have made it perfectly clear that they are going to continue to build Pontiac engines based on factory parameters, no matter if stretched blocks, heads, etc. are made. That's great. Those guy's work are probably the most impressive of the Pontiac world. Other guys want to push the limits of the factory design (just like the aftermarket has for Ford, Chevy, Chrysler, etc) and that's great too. I'm sure that will result in even faster time slips.

It's a great time to a be Pontiac enthusiast, even if they aren't competitive Nationally with engines with 40+ more years worth of development.