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Old 03-02-2016, 05:03 PM
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"...IMO very seldom is the RAIV cam the ideal choice for a street 455 build, a good choice but very seldom the ideal choice. Camshaft designs have improved a lot over the last 45 years."


Cliff started what turned out to be a VERY long 455 cam thread, with lots of differing opinions. So, give us your list of HFT cams that are the "ideal choice", and are better for a 9.5-10:1 CR pump gas 455, than the 041 type grind, with Rhoads lifters.

And please tell us exactly how much more low end torque/and/or hp your choices will produce. Dyno numbers preferred.

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Old 03-02-2016, 05:25 PM
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The origional 041 factory specs are available on line to compare. But keep in mind when you do so the 041 factory cams seat duration (advertised duration) is rated at a different tappet lift than the Crower cam. So I'm not sure how thay actually compare. That and you will notice the lobe separation is reported different. I know Cliff has degreed the Crower cam and can report the actual lobe separation which if memory serves me right is slightly different than the catalog.

I'm not 100 percent this is correct but I found this information:

Pontiac OEM 9794041
308/320 advertised
231/240 .at .050"
.470/.470 lift
lobe separation 113.5 / intake centerline 112

Are they close.... yes. Could there be a difference in actual performance... who knows ?

Do note both cams have a ton of seat duration and a ton of overlap. Not always ideal !

Also I'm not sure if it's available on line but Rockey Rotella did a nice interview for High Performance Pontiac magazine with the factory designer of the 041 cam. You might look for it.


.

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Old 03-02-2016, 05:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ponyakr View Post
"...IMO very seldom is the RAIV cam the ideal choice for a street 455 build, a good choice but very seldom the ideal choice. Camshaft designs have improved a lot over the last 45 years."


Cliff started what turned out to be a VERY long 455 cam thread, with lots of differing opinions. So, give us your list of HFT cams that are the "ideal choice", and are better for a 9.5-10:1 CR pump gas 455, than the 041 type grind, with Rhoads lifters.

And please tell us exactly how much more low end torque/and/or hp your choices will produce. Dyno numbers preferred.
I would need more details on your combination to give a specific recommendation. However IMO every combination requires a specific cam to meet the expectations of the project... just like the engineers did when they designed the RAIV cam, which was actually designed for the Ram Air II engine in 1968 and later was slated for the 455 Super Duty engines in 1973. With today's technology I can guarantee you if the engineers were designing the 041 today it would be completely different than the cam they designed in the mid-sixties. I'm also quite sure if they were given the choice today, to use the 041 in the SD 455 program or design a different cam from scratch they would choose the latter of the two options.

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Last edited by PAUL K; 03-02-2016 at 05:47 PM.
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Old 03-02-2016, 05:50 PM
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"I would need more details on your combination to give a specific recommendation..."



The OP gave some details of his combo in post #1 of this thread. So, what is your "specific recommendation" for his combo ?

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Old 03-02-2016, 06:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ponyakr View Post
"I would need more details on your combination to give a specific recommendation..."



The OP gave some details of his combo in post #1 of this thread. So, what is your "specific recommendation" for his combo ?
Not enough information. It appears that he has already narrowed his choice down to two cams....that's eliminating thousands of other choices. My recommendation would be to talk with the shop porting the heads. They would have a lot of the critical information needed and if they are willing to spend sometime with their customer and find out what his intended goals are, they would have the best chance of helping the OP accomplish these.

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Old 03-02-2016, 07:14 PM
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Previous information from Bret P (screamingchief)
First one is the RAIV cam...

Brand & part no.:GM #9794041
Grind & lobe no.: (RAIV ~ 041 or "T" cam)
Tappet type: Hydraulic Flat Tappet
Specs = intake/exhaust: (notes)
Adv.Duration = 308°/320° (I/E split = 12°)
Dur. @ .050" = 230°/240° (I/E split = 10°)
Lobe lift = .313"/.313"
Lift @ 1.5 rr = .470"/.470" (Lift @ 1.65 rr = .516"/.516")
Lash = Hyd./no lash
LSA 113.5° ICL = 112° ECL = 115°

Seat events:
IO = 42° BTDC
IC = 86° ABDC
EO = 95° BBDC
EC = 45° ATDC
Total O/L = 87°

.050" events:
IO = 3° BTDC
IC = 47° ABDC
EO = 55° BBDC
EC = 5° ATDC
O/L @ .050" = 8°

This one is similar to the RAIV cam.

Brand & part no.:Crower #60919 hydraulic (RAIV "clone" cam)
Grind & lobe no.:
Tappet type: Hydraulic Flat Tappet
Spec = intake/exhaust: (notes)
Adv.Duration. = 304°/316° (I/E split = 12°)
Dur. @ .050" = 231°/240° (I/E split = 9°)
Lobe lift = .313"/.313"
Lift @ 1.5 rr = .470"/.470"
Lash = Hyd./no lash
LSA 113° ICL = 109° ECL = 117°

Seat events:
IO = 43° BTDC
IC = 81° ABDC
EO = 95° BBDC
EC = 41° ATDC
Total O/L = 84°

.050" events:
IO = 7° BTDC
IC = 45° ABDC
EO = 57° BBDC
EC = 3° ATDC
O/L @ .050" = 10°

There you go.


.

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  #27  
Old 03-02-2016, 08:49 PM
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So what does this all mean? I believe I asked this in this

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...=783238&page=2
post a short while back.

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Old 03-03-2016, 12:11 AM
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I think what it means is that there are enough opinions out there on the 041 cam to generate a few pages of bantering every time the subject is brought up.

I also think it means that the 041 and its clones from companies like Crower are, for the most part, great choices for 455+ cid street engines with CR near 10:1, good intake, exhaust, and preferably some port work if running stock heads if you want a boatload of torque throughout the usable RPM range and don't mind running Rhoads lifters.

The finer points of lobe positions, opening and closing points, overlap, lift, etc. can all be obsessed over and for a specific combination doing so might yield better results, but that's not to say the results of an 041/clone would be bad.

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Old 03-03-2016, 08:48 AM
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What is really important here is how well the Crower 60919 cam works in actual use.

Installed in a very "basic" 455 with 6X heads that flowed 232cfm, iron intake, q-jet, no spacer, HEI it made 455.4hp. Compression ratio was 10 to 1. Idle vacuum 12" at 750rpms (Rhoads lifters).

With unported KRE aluminum D port heads and 10.48 to 1 compression the same engine made 494hp, idle vacuum slightly better at 13.5" at 750rpm's. My car ran solidly into the 11's with that engine, best ET was 11.64 at 116mph.

We used the same cam in a 455 with unported Edelbrock round port heads with 87cc chambers and it made 505hp. That engine was installed in a 71 Firebird at 3900lbs race weight and ran 11.50's at 118mph.

Both of those engines use high ratio rockers on the 60919 cam and Rhoads lifters. Difficult to argue the power production and vehicle performance, not to mention how well these engines idled, smooth off idle, and very user friendly for "normal" driving.

It is also a big enough cam that you can manage pretty high compression, even with iron heads on currently available pump fuel.

My first 455 with 6X heads and that cam ran fine on 89-90 octane at 10 to 1 compression......Cliff

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Old 03-03-2016, 01:13 PM
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^^Yup, that's my point - in the right combination such cams are great choices. I believe Jim Hand runs a duplicate of the original 041, not a "clone" and gets impressive performance also. Pretty much any cam with specs close to the 041 will produce similar performance.

Duration is not the only factor of course. If all we looked at was .050" duration then someone might think the Comp XE276 is just as good of a choice in that 10:1 iron headed engine. A couple of the reasons the 041/clones work so well in higher compression engines is the shape of the lobes (plenty of seat duration to allow low-lift overlap and earlier intake opening/later exhaust closing points) and their positions - lobe centers spread out and later in the cycle than many of the modern fast-ramp cams that are optimized to work in lower compression combos.

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Old 03-03-2016, 01:34 PM
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Correct Will. The XE274 cam, for example is a LOT smaller than the 60919, and on a tighter LSA. It will not make nearly the upper mid-range and top end power, and it will narrow up the power curve (torque), and make peak torque earlier in the rpm range and higher peak number. This also means that it will have higher cylinder pressure at lower rpm's, and require HIGHER octane, and likely to experience detonation on pump gas at higher compression ratios.

Personally, an XE274 cam would NEVER be on my list for a 455 engine build, but if for some reason I did one, it would NOT have much over 9 to 1 compression, if I planned on "normal" timing/fuel curves and effectively managing currently available pump fuel......Cliff

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Old 03-03-2016, 03:10 PM
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That pretty much answers my wondering on all the very similar 041/clones.
That thread I referenced eluded to the comp cam 041 duplicate (#51-116-3) as a completely different lobe on the exhaust.

True or false?

To separate it from the grouping if not a comparable 041 clone choices.

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Old 03-03-2016, 05:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STEELCITYFIREBIRD View Post
That pretty much answers my wondering on all the very similar 041/clones.
That thread I referenced eluded to the comp cam 041 duplicate (#51-116-3) as a completely different lobe on the exhaust.

True or false?

To separate it from the grouping if not a comparable 041 clone choices.

True...but maybe it's a better lobe than the RAIV. I'm surprised that no one here has actually measured any of the "clone" cams and compared them. If no one has taken the time to measure them, what makes them similar. Steve C posted some numbers but they really weren't comparable. What I'm not understanding is there seems to be a lot of interest to stay away from a cam that might make less power than a RAIV cam but little interest in finding a cam that might perform better.

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Last edited by PAUL K; 03-03-2016 at 06:11 PM.
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Old 03-03-2016, 06:22 PM
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Paul - I'm not sure that there's little interest, it's simply a matter of time and resources and the fact that every combination is different.

I think Jim Hand has done some pretty convincing research over the years and shown that, *in his application*, that Wolverine cam he ran (runs?) outperformed the original 041.

From my perspective - I like to try things and experiment but I'm not going to round up all the 041 "clone" cams from all the manufacturers and try each one to see if one makes me a tenth faster.

My guess is that you could find one combo where the Crower 60919 would be faster than the Crane "blueprint" cam, and another where the opposite would be true, and overall there wouldn't be all that much difference between them.

There is no one "holy grail" cam but there are plenty of turds (go ahead, put a smallish XE cam in your high compression 455 and see what happens... ) . The ONLY way to find the perfect cam for your car is to try a bunch of them and not many people are willing to do that, so it comes down to looking at other similar combos and what works in them and making your best guess.

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Old 03-03-2016, 06:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cliff R View Post
...
Personally, an XE274 cam would NEVER be on my list for a 455 engine build, but if for some reason I did one, it would NOT have much over 9 to 1 compression, if I planned on "normal" timing/fuel curves and effectively managing currently available pump fuel......Cliff
I have a bone stock '73 455 in my Formula at the moment. I also have a used Comp Magnum 270H. I wonder how that cam would work in that engine...

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Old 03-03-2016, 06:25 PM
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Will you are correct....every combination is different so it confuses me why the RAIV cam is the "go to cam"... why wouldn't a clone of the Wolverine cam be a better choice?

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Old 03-03-2016, 06:33 PM
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Well, besides the fact that no one makes that cam any more, one thing to consider is that it's a little bigger than the 041. Jim's engine has a fairly high CR by the standards most people use to compare street engines, really well ported heads, a very free flowing exhaust, and a converter and gears that are carefully matched to the combo. Clearly it could make use of the little bit of extra duration.

Maybe that cam wouldn't work quite as well in an engine with only 9.5:1 CR, or a slightly more restrictive exhaust, or a little tighter converter, or heads that flow less, ...or...or...

But the bottom line is that it is quite similar to the 041 and all of these "clones" aren't true clones anyway - they're all a little bit different. So you pick your cam and you take your chances, and if you're a typical street guy (this is the street forum, after all) getting that last .1 at the strip out of your combo isn't as important as having something that works well, is a blast to drive, and pounds Mustangs into foil.

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  #38  
Old 03-03-2016, 07:14 PM
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There is no one "holy grail" cam but there are plenty of turds (go ahead, put a smallish XE cam in your high compression 455 and see what happens... ) . The ONLY way to find the perfect cam for your car is to try a bunch of them and not many people are willing to do that, so it comes down to looking at other similar combos and what works in them and making your best guess.[/QUOTE]

That's pretty much how I arrived with the Stump Puller hybrid choice. I saw a lot of people running it and the performance was close to where I wanted to be. There might be a little left on the table as far as a max effort is concerned but I wanted a real torquey motor that would run well on the street in the rpm's I will be operating in most of the time. Hope to have my engine done in the next 4-6 weeks so I can add to the data log as to what it does with ported iron heads. Thankfully there are a lot of experienced Pontiac guys that are willing to share their combos and results here and very few people that act like their combo is top secret.

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Old 03-03-2016, 07:30 PM
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The Wolverine cam is NLA but every cam company offers a similar cam or could grind one..... it may not be exact but that shouldn't matter if it doesn't matter with the RAIV "clones". The Wolverine has proven to out perform the RAIV clones, so why wouldn't it be a better choice? The Wolverine actually has less seat duration and less overlap than the IV cam. So it would probably work better with 9.5 compression and with less overlap you will have less of the stinky eye watering stuff. The Wolverine would work great with 3.31 or 3.55 gears and probably would not require a different converter than the IV cam. If the quality of the port job is going to effect the cam choice what would make the RAIV cam a better choice than any other cam? The Wolverine has more lift than the IV cam so it would help a combination with a stock port or a mildly ported head.

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Last edited by PAUL K; 03-03-2016 at 07:52 PM.
  #40  
Old 03-03-2016, 08:50 PM
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I currently have this Crower cam in my 78 T/A in a 462 with 6x8 heads that have been milled .030 I don't know the exact chamber volume but have used online calculators and come up with apprx. 9.3-9.4 compression. On a local chassis dyno it will pull 342 hp and just over 422 ft/lbs at the rear wheels all done by 5,000 rpm. Vacuum is around 13 inches at 800 rpm with 12 degrees initial timing and ported timing hook up. I do run some lighter advance springs also.

At the drag strip it will run right at 107mph with a lousy 13.42 quarter mile time. It is a 4 speed car with 3:42 stock gears. It is just a fun car and very streetable. I do run Rhodes lifters and 1.65 rockers with a 1969 cast intake and headers with a quadrajet. I used the chasis dyno to dial in the timing and secondary rods in the carb.
Not a max effort looking for every possible ounce of power but just a very reliable durable set up. I have to believe I would fit into the average Pontiac hobbist category with real world numbers.

Barry

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