[slowbird]

Originally Posted by TedRamAirII

Well.....what good is that. Dynos that read different doesnt do anyone any good. I know if I have my Torque wrench calibrated, no matter where I go, I can torque a bolt, its going to be accurate. Its all opinion until I see numbers.

The track is the best place, numbers on a piece of paper mean very little.

[Steve C.]

"Measuring dyno results from one facility to another is always going to be like measuring apples to oranges to some degree, regardless of the correction factor”

"Finding a reliable dyno shop takes research, patience and sometimes a little luck."

http://www.enginelabs.com/engine-tec...he-first-time/

Take your engine to USA Racing Engines, aka "The WOP Shop", in Houston Texas. Their engine dyno is located near sea level, and take it there on a cold dry Winter day


.

[gtofreek]

Originally Posted by blykins

Four different dynos will give you four different numbers and it's really not due to calibration, it's due to how the weather station is set up, where the dyno room air comes from, etc.

If you want to compare several builders, you put them on the same dyno....i.e. Engine masters challenge....

This is so true. Dyno software from different companies calculate frictional HP differently. Also, the dyno operator can put in any bore/stroke to add the frictional HP to the readings. Frictional HP can differ greatly from one bore/stroke combo to another. I especially get suspicious of dyno sheets that show zeros everywhere except for the torque and HP columns. I.E. no lbs per hour fuel flow, no BSFC numbers, etc. These number can be used to verify HP numbers[actually observed, without weather correction] that are shown. Without those numbers, it's very suspicious to me.

When I built an engine for EMC we dynoed it at the shop I now work in[didn't work there then]. That dyno showed a peak HP of 571 from 6100-6500 RPM, and around 540 FT. lbs.. It ran flawlessly. Once at the EMC The funding guy of the engine made a call to change plug wires to the sponsored plug wires. 3 of them were bad. On the DTS dyno at EMC, this engine had a terrible miss, but still managed to crank out 541 HP, and 500 ft. lbs. on 5 cylinders. It was good enough to place us in 34'th place out of 50. Not bad for 5 cylinders. That shows how much dyno's can differ. If we had left the MSD wires on it, it probably would have cranked out 650 HP on their dyno.

[locomotivebreath]

When I had my engine dynoed at BES racing , they just had the dyno software updated about a week befor and said it was running very conservative . Tony said all of their known combo type crate motors were down on power . So even a software change on the same equipment will juggle the numbers. But how much he didn't say . Has anyone compared dynoed ? Are we talking 10-20 hp or 30-40 !?

[blykins]

A buddy of mine builds dirt track engines and owns his own dyno. It's a Stuska and it's where I dyno all of my stuff.

He had a customer dyno there, then dyno at a Superflow across town and there was 80 hp difference between them.

[b-man]

Originally Posted by blykins

Each engine has a few of its own traits that you have to watch out for, but for the most part every single engine out there works off the same principles.

I have never seen a well designed and well thought out street engine not be helped by advanced cam timing. Cliff didn't mean to do it, but his testimony on changing the intake centerline to various positions backed up exactly what my point was.

Will advanced cam timing always make more horsepower? Probably not. But since I got slaughtered for talking about performance in the "street forum", I figured I would mention something that would lend itself to tunability and drivability.

By the way, Jon Kaase did very very well at the engine Masters challenge with a Pontiac engine… But he is also a Ford guy. :-). My last Pontiac was a 409 inch engine that made 600 hp and 540 lbft. Got two more in here now. Maybe I will post some build threads.

Never did I say that performance talk didn't belong here in the street forum, or that this forum was only for stock engine builds. Please don't try to twist my words to suit your agenda. I simply stated that most members who frequent this forum would prefer to use a proven cam set at whatever centerline the manufacturer or designer recommends. Moving the cam around can be a nice tuning tool, but again most of us here would prefer to simply set it where it's been recommended by a known cam expert (Mac McKellar, Harvey Crane, Harold Brookshire, etc.) and forget it.

Because I'm of this mindset does this mean I'm against increasing or improving performance? Hardly. I'm just trying to stay in line with the intent of the original posters inquiry, simply that and nothing else. Stone-stock 400 build looking for a cam to compliment that, remember?

Higher-end street performance engine builds very well may warrant playing with cam advance to find the sweet spot, just like a Super Stock racer might do along with trying a multitude of different cams, lash settings, converters, rear gears, etc to get the edge on their competition.

Originally Posted by blykins

I haven't been here very long.

So, if the "street forum" is only geared to engines that have to be completely bone stock repops of the factory stuff in every aspect, I'm unaware.

Otherwise, I'm an engine builder and it's my job to think outside the box and learn how to make things better in one way or the other. I spit out an average of 1-2 engines per month and I absolutely grit my teeth at doing something the same way every time. That's not how you learn.

If I see a trend on my engines that will carry over to some of the builds going on here and will improve driving manners or tunability, I feel the need to speak up.

Why not take an opportunity to make a "stone stock 400" potentially better than another "stone stock 400"? Obviously, dataman is detail oriented and would probably make a really sharp engine builder once he got some experience under his belt. I guarantee you that the engine assembly line at PMD didn't take time to degree the camshaft, check bearing clearances, etc, etc.

A well-thought-out build doesn't mean that it has to make more horsepower, or the cam has to be bigger, etc....it just means that thought is put into it, and if something needs to be "tweaked", then it gets tweaked.

To be honest, I don't offer suggestions with the expectation that I'll be jumped on by 3-4 different guys because "that's not how the factory did it". It just happens that way. However, I don't agree with a lot of the information that's being offered up here and I feel the need to speak my mind.

How did you interpret any of my or anyone else's comments here to make you think this forum was exclusively for stock builds?

Where did you see anyone jumping on you for your comments, and saying "that's not how the factory did it"?

Originally Posted by blykins

Yeah, I don't like the taste of Kool-Aid either.

Nobody is serving up any Kool-Aid here. Nobody expects that anyone will 'follow' along with some imaginary group. We're all here to freely discuss our ideas, respecting each other's point of view and also treating each other with the same respect that we all deserve.

Originally Posted by blykins

If you think all dynos are equal, you'd be very surprised to learn the reality. If you wanted to compare engines that way, then we would have to all use the same dyno to get a good comparison.

Id be more concerned about the fact that there have been 3 professional engine builders that have posted in the two cam threads that have been active and all 3 guys have posted information totally opposite from what cliff has found.

I know why that is....and so does Paul K and Paul C.

Tearing down other members doesn't sit well with a lot of of us here. How about some respect where respect is due?

Cliff's work in the industry speaks for itself, whether or not you or anyone else agrees with his methods.

How about you post some tech threads of your own to showcase your engine building prowess, and let the forum members make their own assessment?

[blykins]

Originally Posted by b-man

Never did I say that performance talk didn't belong here in the street forum, or that this forum was only for stock engine builds. Please don't try to twist my words to suit your agenda. I simply stated that most members who frequent this forum would prefer to use a proven cam set at whatever centerline the manufacturer or designer recommends. Moving the cam around can be a nice tuning tool, but again most of us here would prefer to simply set it where it's been recommended by a known cam expert (Mac McKellar, Harvey Crane, Harold Brookshire, etc.) and forget it.

Because I'm of this mindset does this mean I'm against increasing or improving performance? Hardly. I'm just trying to stay in line with the intent of the original posters inquiry, simply that and nothing else. Stone-stock 400 build looking for a cam to compliment that, remember?

Higher-end street performance engine builds very well may warrant playing with cam advance to find the sweet spot, just like a Super Stock racer might do along with trying a multitude of different cams, lash settings, converters, rear gears, etc to get the edge on their competition.

How did you interpret any of my or anyone else's comments here to make you think this forum was exclusively for stock builds?

Where did you see anyone jumping on you for your comments, and saying "that's not how the factory did it"?



Nobody is serving up any Kool-Aid here. Nobody expects that anyone will 'follow' along with some imaginary group. We're all here to freely discuss our ideas, respecting each other's point of view and also treating each other with the same respect that we all deserve.


Tearing down other members doesn't sit well with a lot of of us here. How about some respect where respect is due?

Cliff's work in the industry speaks for itself, whether or not you or anyone else agrees with his methods.

How about you post some tech threads of your own to showcase your engine building prowess, and let the forum members make their own assessment?

I have been reminded multiple times across 2-3 threads recently that "this is the street forum". You wrote this earlier in this thread:

"This is the Pontiac Street forum, what applies to race engine builds doesn't necessarily apply here."

Please explain what that means if we can't discuss the things we were discussing? Nobody was talking about vacuum pumps, Super Stock engine builds, or anything of the like.....we were talking about camshaft selection, lobe separation angles, and things that are important for a proper street build.

Please inform me on what my agenda is, because I certainly don't know myself.

As far as posting some tech threads of my own, I thought I've been earning my keep so far by helping guys out in various threads concerning measuring for bearing clearances, filing piston rings, a little bit of this, a little bit of that. Otherwise, if you're concerned about my prowess or experience level, just Google my name or my business name.

I'm not sure what Cliff's problem is. Maybe it's because he's been used to "running the show here" and now that someone has questioned his word, he feels the need to go on defense. But if you don't think I've been "jumped on" for suggesting something other than factory style thinking, then go back and read through the dozens of pages that have been generated over the past few days.....because I disagree.

The first time I disagreed with Cliff publicly, I got probably a dozen emails and PM's about how many times various engine builders have come here and disagreed with him. I haven't been here long, but obviously this happens from time to time and the new guy gets tired of arguing so they just start letting it slide.

I'm not going to let it slide...

[b-man]

Originally Posted by blykins

I have been reminded multiple times across 2-3 threads recently that "this is the street forum". You wrote this earlier in this thread:

"This is the Pontiac Street forum, what applies to race engine builds doesn't necessarily apply here."

Please explain what that means if we can't discuss the things we were discussing? Nobody was talking about vacuum pumps, Super Stock engine builds, or anything of the like.....we were talking about camshaft selection, lobe separation angles, and things that are important for a proper street build.

Please inform me on what my agenda is, because I certainly don't know myself.

As far as posting some tech threads of my own, I thought I've been earning my keep so far by helping guys out in various threads concerning measuring for bearing clearances, filing piston rings, a little bit of this, a little bit of that. Otherwise, if you're concerned about my prowess or experience level, just Google my name or my business name.

I'm not sure what Cliff's problem is. Maybe it's because he's been used to "running the show here" and now that someone has questioned his word, he feels the need to go on defense. But if you don't think I've been "jumped on" for suggesting something other than factory style thinking, then go back and read through the dozens of pages that have been generated over the past few days.....because I disagree.

The first time I disagreed with Cliff publicly, I got probably a dozen emails and PM's about how many times various engine builders have come here and disagreed with him. I haven't been here long, but obviously this happens from time to time and the new guy gets tired of arguing so they just start letting it slide.

I'm not going to let it slide...

Part of your agenda:http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...44&postcount=4

The smiley faces don't soften it up much.

[LT]

Blykins takes hits at Cliff anytime he can. Even on a thread about connecting rods. It gets old...

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900AZ using Tapatalk

[blykins]

My agenda is stating the obvious?

[LT]

Your a punk that stays in the limelight of bad publicity. Leech alert!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900AZ using Tapatalk

[b-man]

Originally Posted by blykins

My agenda is stating the obvious?

Tearing down others is not making you look good here.

Quite frankly you're on thin ice.

[blykins]

Originally Posted by LT

Blykins takes hits at Cliff anytime he can. Even on a thread about connecting rods. It gets old...

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900AZ using Tapatalk

Since you like reading threads and noting who takes hits at who, look back at the first page and see who posted first, and then who came through with an agenda of his own.

And who are you anyway? Rofl

[blykins]

Originally Posted by b-man

Tearing down others is not making you look good here.

Quite frankly you're on thin ice.

I stand up for what I believe is right. If this forum wants nothing but sheep following one shepherd, then boot me.

[b-man]

Originally Posted by blykins

I stand up for what I believe is right. If this forum wants nothing but sheep following one shepherd, then boot me.

You'll get booted for your agenda here.

Members with an agenda somehow always find the door.

Don't let the door hit you......

[blykins]

Originally Posted by b-man

You'll get booted for your agenda here.

Members with an agenda somehow always find the door.

Don't let the door hit you......

Let the record state that I said I quit first....

[b-man]

Great.

Now I'll make it official.

[goatless]

Well that escalated quickly.

Seems like things got a lot more confrontational than they needed to be- by several people. I'll leave it at that.

[slowbird]

Originally Posted by goatless

Well that escalated quickly.

Seems like things got a lot more confrontational than they needed to be- by several people. I'll leave it at that.

X2.

[dataway]

So .... 068 or 067 ??

Just kidding, now I'm afraid to put any cam in my engine

Just for the record ... I've got good info from everyone concerned. I love you all.

I enjoy seeing good info from sources both tried and true, and those willing to rock the boat. ALL of you know a lot more than me.

I hate to see "topic drift" end up causing problems.