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#1
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Windage tray or baffled oil pan.
I'm in the process of rebuilding a 72 400 for my 73 formula. The oil pan is fairly dented and rusty on the outside so I have decided to go with a new one, upon disassembly I noticed that it has a windage tray with a non baffled oil pan. I learnt that Pontiac fazed out the windage tray in favor of the baffled pan in the mid 70s. My question is what is better windage tray, baffled pan or both? I have a roller cam, Edelbrock heads and intake to go on it and the firebird is just a street car. Any advice would be greatly appreciated thanks.
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#2
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Go with both for a few extra HP above 5000 rpm, also the windage tray is what holds your lower oil dip stick section in place, so if you do not run it you need to get a new lower dip stick section that just bolts to the main cap, or make and weld a bracket on your yours.
Give the tray a good look over for cracks that can start in the 90 degree corners of the stamp outs ,and drill 2 or 3 5/16" holes in each sump in the tray so it drains faster.
__________________
Wernher Von Braun warned before his retirement from NASA back in 1972, that the next world war would be against the ETs! And he was not talking about 1/8 or 1/4 mile ETs! 1) 1940s 100% silver 4 cup tea server set. Two dry rotted 14 x 10 Micky Thompson slicks. 1) un-mailed in gift coupon from a 1972 box of corn flakes. Two pairs of brown leather flip flops, never seen more then 2 mph. Education is what your left with once you forget things! |
#3
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Very good point on the lower dip stick Steve, and to add, a new replacement tray is a good approach.
Since this is a Firebird, and what appears to be a fairly healthy build, my recommendation is to use an aftermarket pan to prevent starvation. And believe me, even a factory suspension on a Firebird can starve an OE pan. Easy. The 2 go-to pans are the Milodon Road Race pan and the Canton Road Race pan. Although most say the Canton is a superior pan, I, and others, have used the Milodon without issue. One thing about the Milodon pan, it works with the OE windage trays, or their' screen/mesh tray. Using the OE tray allows retention of the lower tube. Not sure if the Canton supports use of the OE tray, or if their' tray retains the lower tube, but it does have a second provision for a dip stick, which eliminates the need for the lower tube. .
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. 1970 GTO Judge Tribute Pro-Tour Project 535 IA2 http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=760624 1971 Trans Am 463, 315cfm E-head Sniper XFlow EFI, TKO600 extreme, 9", GW suspension, Baer brakes, pro tour car https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...ght=procharger Theme Song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zKAS...ature=youtu.be |
#4
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The OEM trays are prone to cracking, what is a good replacement?
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#5
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Canton works with factory as well as Spotts/IA tray.
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Skip Fix 1978 Trans Am original owner 10.99 @ 124 pump gas 455 E heads, NO Bird ever! 1981 Black SE Trans Am stockish 6X 400ci, turbo 301 on a stand 1965 GTO 4 barrel 3 speed project 2004 GTO Pulse Red stock motor computer tune 13.43@103.4 1964 Impala SS 409/470ci 600 HP stroker project 1979 Camaro IAII Edelbrock head 500" 695 HP 10.33@132 3595lbs |
#6
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I gotta tell you guys something here, and yes I know that anything can happen , but over the years I have built way more motors than I have fingers and toes to count them on, and all of them had a factory tray in them with a atleast 8 of those motors hitting 7500 rpm time after time and none of them had a tray go bad!
One did in a family members build and that tray came out of a motor that had a badly dented pan at one time!
__________________
Wernher Von Braun warned before his retirement from NASA back in 1972, that the next world war would be against the ETs! And he was not talking about 1/8 or 1/4 mile ETs! 1) 1940s 100% silver 4 cup tea server set. Two dry rotted 14 x 10 Micky Thompson slicks. 1) un-mailed in gift coupon from a 1972 box of corn flakes. Two pairs of brown leather flip flops, never seen more then 2 mph. Education is what your left with once you forget things! |
#7
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Quote:
Thanks for that confirmation Skip, that's good to know! The 'diamond' or screen/mesh trays I understand are not as effective as the OE type trays, but at times the screens/mesh are your only option. (Depends on the pan) And to answer the original question of one or the other or both, both would be the answer I would provide. They each deal with individual conditions. Scraper would be the 3rd, and same response, but scrapers tend to be a little more difficult to install. I disagree with those who say you don't need a windage tray if you have a scraper, as mentioned, each deal with different conditions, and there is still windage with a scraper installed. Personally, I feel scrapers are really only worth the effort to all-out drag racers, because the effects are minimal on a street/strip engine. .
__________________
. 1970 GTO Judge Tribute Pro-Tour Project 535 IA2 http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=760624 1971 Trans Am 463, 315cfm E-head Sniper XFlow EFI, TKO600 extreme, 9", GW suspension, Baer brakes, pro tour car https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...ght=procharger Theme Song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zKAS...ature=youtu.be |
#8
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Quote:
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__________________
. 1970 GTO Judge Tribute Pro-Tour Project 535 IA2 http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=760624 1971 Trans Am 463, 315cfm E-head Sniper XFlow EFI, TKO600 extreme, 9", GW suspension, Baer brakes, pro tour car https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...ght=procharger Theme Song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zKAS...ature=youtu.be |
#9
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I used the original factory tray that came in my RAIII 400 engine. The last combination with that block made peak power at 6400 rpm. When we took it apart for inspection the tray was cracked.
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__________________
'70 TA / 505 cid / same engine but revised ( previous best 10.63 at 127.05 ) Old information here: http://www.hotrod.com/articles/0712p...tiac-trans-am/ Sponsor of the world's fastest Pontiac powered Ford Fairmont (engine) 5.14 at 140 mph (1/8 mile) , true 10.5 tire, stock type suspension https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDoJnIP3HgE |
#10
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No intent to hijack this thread, but can the upper tube be changed (A/C to non-A/C) without worrying about dropping the lower section? in the pan Mine is into the windage tray.
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#11
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Quote:
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__________________
. 1970 GTO Judge Tribute Pro-Tour Project 535 IA2 http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=760624 1971 Trans Am 463, 315cfm E-head Sniper XFlow EFI, TKO600 extreme, 9", GW suspension, Baer brakes, pro tour car https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...ght=procharger Theme Song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zKAS...ature=youtu.be |
#12
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Thanks for all the replies, great information from all,
I will use both windage tray and baffled pan. The OEM tray appears to be OK but it is 45 years old so I will get a new one. Will the Tomahawk fit with the Milodon road race pan? Should I go for a 5 quart pan and will it still sit above the X member? Also my lower dip stick tube the one that the windage tray holds in place has a small dent on one side, kinda looks factory, is that supposed to be there? |
#13
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Think it is from main cap walk?
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#14
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Sorry I don't remember the details as it was probably about 15 or so years ago.
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__________________
'70 TA / 505 cid / same engine but revised ( previous best 10.63 at 127.05 ) Old information here: http://www.hotrod.com/articles/0712p...tiac-trans-am/ Sponsor of the world's fastest Pontiac powered Ford Fairmont (engine) 5.14 at 140 mph (1/8 mile) , true 10.5 tire, stock type suspension https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDoJnIP3HgE |
#15
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The Butler boys don't believe a windage tray does anything. I saw the son saying they couldn't measure any difference on a dyno with having one. I have also seen people claim they are worth 10-15hp.
Pontiac engineers believed in them so that is good enough for me. In regards to a baffled pan, I say you better put one on while you have the chance. I had a 72 TA and just regular highway exits would see the oil pressure fall on right turns. Pontiac started using them in '73. |
#16
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I still firmly believe that cracked windage trays are a result of an engine not being well balanced, and more importantly, balanced evenly between front and rear. I'm with Steve25, I have built more Pontiacs than I can keep track of, and have yet to see broken windage trays. But, since the tray bolts directly to the main caps, if the crank is out of balance, it will make the main caps move back and forth. The more it's out of balance, the more the caps move.
Lets say a crank is balanced to within 4 grams front, and 4 grams rear. One would think it's pretty evenly balanced. BUT, if the crank is 4 grams heavy on the counterweights in the front, but 4 grams light on the counterweights in the rear, then the crank is NOT evenly balanced front to rear, but rather it's off 8 grams front to rear. This will make the crank try to oscillate from front to rear, and the main bearings, and caps are trying to prevent that oscillation. So, all balance jobs are not created equal, nor does everyone who balances engines, realize this, or even think about it. Also, some balance machines have a tolerance range that can be used. That range can be set to almost any value. Lets say it's set to 5 grams. When the crank is within 5 grams, the machine says zero. But in reality, it's only within 5 grams.
__________________
Paul Carter Carter Cryogenics www.cartercryo.com 520-409-7236 Koerner Racing Engines You killed it, We build it! 520-294-5758 64 GTO, under re-construction, 412 CID, also under construction. 87 S-10 Pickup, 321,000 miles 99Monte Carlo, 293,000 miles 86 Bronco, 218,000 miles |
#17
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That should be the lopsided crimp that prevents the tube from sliding out of the tray. Pontiac didn't worry about how the tube looked.
__________________
Mick Batson 1967 original owner Tyro Blue/black top 4-speed HO GTO with all the original parts stored safely away -- 1965 2+2 survivor AC auto -- 1965 Catalina Safari Wagon in progress. |
#18
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Quote:
Make sure to check your fill level, I can't remember, but one of the pans, be it the F or A body ones, I recall are listed wrong, and are actually 1qt more capacity. The block pan rail is reference, so as long as the OE stick and tube are used, and installed properly, it will read correctly. Or that's how I remember it. It's always a good idea to use a new tray IMO. .
__________________
. 1970 GTO Judge Tribute Pro-Tour Project 535 IA2 http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=760624 1971 Trans Am 463, 315cfm E-head Sniper XFlow EFI, TKO600 extreme, 9", GW suspension, Baer brakes, pro tour car https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...ght=procharger Theme Song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zKAS...ature=youtu.be |
#19
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Don't get me wrong here you need to inspect them very closely before you reuse them.
If you have time on your hands you grind / polish out all the 90 degree corners where the cracks start off, but the factory would have taken the time to make them and install them if they had no benefit!
__________________
Wernher Von Braun warned before his retirement from NASA back in 1972, that the next world war would be against the ETs! And he was not talking about 1/8 or 1/4 mile ETs! 1) 1940s 100% silver 4 cup tea server set. Two dry rotted 14 x 10 Micky Thompson slicks. 1) un-mailed in gift coupon from a 1972 box of corn flakes. Two pairs of brown leather flip flops, never seen more then 2 mph. Education is what your left with once you forget things! |
#20
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Years ago I read about isolating the windage tray from vibration so it does not crack. There was an article in High Performance Pontiac magazine about it 16 years ago. And at that time some suggested the stock windage trays can crack because in essence they are a 'crank scraper', and the constant slamming of oil into the pickup area causes the cracking.
As far as the extra drilled holes, Ken Crocie made an interesting observation about any extra holes in the trays pan to drain excess oil. Ken advised that the crank spinning within fraction of an inch on the bottom of the tray, there won't be any oil collected there. If not the crank itself, the windage will blow the oil away. So drilling the holes is sort of a wasted effort. Now again, this was many years ago and I bring this up for conversation only. Obviously as reported here others have used them with no issues. .
__________________
'70 TA / 505 cid / same engine but revised ( previous best 10.63 at 127.05 ) Old information here: http://www.hotrod.com/articles/0712p...tiac-trans-am/ Sponsor of the world's fastest Pontiac powered Ford Fairmont (engine) 5.14 at 140 mph (1/8 mile) , true 10.5 tire, stock type suspension https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDoJnIP3HgE |
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