Projected race engine, Eagle cranks?

[KGTO]

The combo I am considering is based on a 400 block w/ a 4.250 Eagle crank. Flattop pistons to yield a little over 11.5 CR w/ my #62's (287/200) that are milled a little. Victor Jr or Nash tunnel ram, BIG solid cam (think its 280-290 @.050), may switch to roller, Ross pistons. I am hoping to make around 600 HP N/A with an additional 150 on spray. Will the Eagle cranks handle that much power? Was considering running aluminum rods; good idea or bad? I would like to do this with a bit of a budget, which is one reason for the using my d-port heads and non-roller cam. Will it make the power?

[KGTO]

The combo I am considering is based on a 400 block w/ a 4.250 Eagle crank. Flattop pistons to yield a little over 11.5 CR w/ my #62's (287/200) that are milled a little. Victor Jr or Nash tunnel ram, BIG solid cam (think its 280-290 @.050), may switch to roller, Ross pistons. I am hoping to make around 600 HP N/A with an additional 150 on spray. Will the Eagle cranks handle that much power? Was considering running aluminum rods; good idea or bad? I would like to do this with a bit of a budget, which is one reason for the using my d-port heads and non-roller cam. Will it make the power?

[bmpmdf]

The Comp Cams folks have a flat tappet solid grind in their aggressive XTQ series that would interest you. But ultimate hp depends on heads and how well they flow. The exhaust on your heads might need a little more work on the roof as far as width. Helps with the nos juice. But the heads will deliever at that flow rate on the intake. The cam lobe profiles are; intake is #6267 (302XTQ) 272 DURTION AT .050" LIFT, .392 lobe lift, ON Exhaust I would look at #6270 (314XTQ) 284 duration @ .050" lift, .410 lobe lift. Since you want the nitrous, try a 110 LSA.

[PONTIAC DUDE]

Depending on Block prep. And lighter is faster. Yes the aluminum rods absorb the shock and place less stress on a weak block. But then it also depends on the hp level & load your are shooting for.

[Mr. P-Body]

We have several in the 600-700 horsepower range. Zero failures to date. Eagle is the better aftermarket crank out there today.
For street engines, we always recommend steel rods. If it's an all-out race engine (traleir ONLY), using nitrous, and you plan to take it apart and look at it from time to time, aluminum rods are fine. Be sure your machinist is familiar with the deck clearance requirements for aluminum.

[KGTO]

It will be a street legal car, so there will be street use. However, I don't buzz the engine at all until oil temp gets above 140, and thats with steel rods in my 67 GTO. The new engine would have to come apart at least once a season, especially with spray, I would think. But how long can you run aluminum rods? Street use will be limited, but I have heard of some guys like Scott Rex putting a bunch of street miles on aluminum rods wtihout problems.

If I get get at least close to 600 HP with a 467 and my heads, (the 150 shot actually made 174 HP and well over 200 ft lbs of TQ), it should be enough to get the car to low 10's on the motor and 9's with spray. I would think.

Weight of the car and how efficient the chassis is should make a difference. I have to weigh the car, it was 3500 w/driver before, but I am putting 'glass on the front and it should bring it down around 3350-3400 ('glass pin on hood and 'glass front bunmper.)

[Don Kennedy]

With a eagle crank pay special attention to the thrust specs for a Pontiac and make sure they are correct, to prevent problems

[PONTIAC DUDE]

I have run extended miles with aluminum rods. Rod technology has changes in the past 30 years. There are still rules to follow. But wouldn't drive it out of state. LOL.

[Ray Cox]

I ran 8.90s on a stock block and stock crank for 2 years, the crank is still going, scat and cat is junk in my oppinion
Id save the money and use stock then again i still use a factory over a new billet

[KGTO]

Well I agree that the stock cranks are great and would use one but I am going to use a 400 block I have and I would like some cubic inches. I suppose I could use a similiar combo like in my 67 GTO but use a bigger cam. I like the 400 long rod combo and I have an awesome crank grinder that treats me really fair to offset grind 400 cranks. All I need then is rods and pistons. It would save money that way. Or I could have him do that with a 455 crank, right? Only thing is I have to find a stock 455 crank and have it machined down for the 3" mains. Dude, don't you have the "trick" thrust bearing for that? Oh, I plan on out of state trips, but the car will be in a trailer http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Personally I like the idea of staying with a 400 block, I have over 20 blocks I can pick from. I can't hardly find a 428 or 455 block, cranks are tough too. But I can have a crank shipped to me cheaper than a block.

I also have a Nash tunnel ram w/ two 660's that I thought I would use for now. A 950 or larger Holley and a Victor intake will set me back quite a bit. I also have Jack Gaydoshs' old Wenzler Gustram that I would like to put back in service later when I decide to swap heads.

[Jeff Walker]

If you are looking for a stock 455 crank I might be able to help you out. Email me at gtojw@westriv.com.

[Tim Corcoran]

KGTO

I was using a stroked factory 455 crank in my 474 motor. Was only running about 11.25:1 compression and using race gas. When I tore the enging down for a refresh I had the crank mag inspected and it was cracked in two places. I also had a spare factory 455 STD crank I bought a few years ago and told the machinest to stroke it and run it. When he magged that crank prior to machining That crank also was cracked. I finally broke down and bought an aftermarket cast crank from Ohio Crankshaft. I was talking to a Pontiac engine builder and his experience has led him to believe that the factory cranks are about on par with the new cast cranks. The deal with the new cranks is you have to blue print them and make sure all dimensions are in spec before you install them. Also make sure the thrust surface is polished real nice or you might go through your thrust bearing real fast.

Tim C

[KGTO]

Thanks Tim,

Is Ohio crankshaft building their own cranks in the U.S. or are they a distributer for the other cranks (i.e. Eagle, Cat, Scat)?

[KGTO]

Are Howard's aluminum rods any good? There is a set on Ebay with only 65 runs. I always felt you shouldn't buy used aluminum rods though. If i did buy them, should they have been zyglowed, or is there another way to check for damage?

[tempest455]

Howard’s is located in Oshkosh, WI, not far from Milwaukee. Unaware of the existence of any cam or rod manufacturers in WI, I asked some of the local machine shops about Howard’s. The consensus was, they have parts mfg. or, “private labeled” if you will under the Howard’s name.

Therefore, you are probably better off buying Al rods from GRP, BME, C&A, Manley etc., as you will know specifically who the manufacturer is.

[Jeff Walker]

Howards rods have been around a long time. Like 40+ years. And they are in California. Check it out. www.howardsrods.com (http://www.howardsrods.com)
Just wanted to clear this up. No need to post misinformation. http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[tempest455]

I of all people, never intend to post misinformation!

How come they use an Oshkosh address? If so, then the Oshkosh address is a sales office or distribution location. The question still remains; do they actually manufacture their products or private label?

[Jeff Walker]

tempest455, not meaning to get ornery with you, just wanted to clear it up. I think they do make their own rods. At least that's what their website say.

I called them once about a set of rods I picked up off of ebay that were supposed to be for a Pontiac. They were very helpful especially since the rods wound up not being for a Pontiac.

[tempest455]

Jeff, nor am I.

However, I see little in the way from Howard’s (other than their website) that suggests they actually manufacture the rods. I don’t recall too many articles in the rags (HR, CC, PHR, ND, FS, etc.) regarding their manufacturing processes such as the others I alluded.

I’m not saying it’s not possible. Rather, it does not pass my litmus test! Having stuff private labeled is fine. That’s coined as “bigger than life” in marketing.

[Jeff Walker]

I can't disagree that they may not make their own rods. I would think that at least at one time,if not now,that they did make their own since my dad used a set in a circle track car back in 1974 when there wasn't near the availability of performance rods or private labeling done. But enough of sidetracking this topic. http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[bmpmdf]

I have a set of Howards alum. rods, but have yet to use them. If I do, I let you know if I break them.

[Bud Lyons]

KGTO,
I have a 455 crank I'll sell ya. It'll need to go 10/10. If your interested I'll have it magged. Don't want anyone thinking I bent them over.

[Mr. P-Body]

If you must use an aluminum rod, Fowler would be my choice today. Very modern metalurgy. Good product. Have seen them bend, but not break! And they make a 6.8" BBC rod that is just what you need.

[Tim Corcoran]

KGTO

OK, the term building their own crank in the US is very misleading. There are few companies to none that actually build their own cranks. And very few are actually forged or cast in the US these days. Of course the same is true for most products. Even the largest names purchase forgings and castings from a supplier, then send them to a machine shop for machining, then put their name on them. There may be a few that actually do their own machining in house. What the manufacturer does is control the design and the quality control. If they do that they are considered a manufacturer. Even in the case of a billet crank, the manufacturer owns the blue prints, then purchase their material and cut a purchase order with a machine shop for the machine work. If they just purchase a final product they are considered a distributor. All the aftermarket Pontiac cast cranks are cast in China. I believe most if not all on them are also machined in China. I am not certain if they are all cast in the same facility or not, there may be more than one casting house. The same for Machining, there may be two or more machining locations. Of course a manufacturer could use more than one machine shop or change shops at any time. If they have quality problems or find a lower bidder they will change to a new shop. I don't really know if there is any difference from a Scat, Cat, Eagle or Ohio Crankshaft brand. There are very few that actually know which ones are cast at the same or different locations, same for the machine work. I can tell you that Jim Butler buys his cast cranks from Ohio Crankshaft. I believe that Ohio Crankshaft is a distributor, atleast for the Pontiac crank. They do some inspection of the cranks, and if they are in bad shape machine them to spec some what. But anytime you get a Pontiac crank in the $300 dollar range, unless you are very lucky that day it will not be a drop in deal. In almost all cases you will need to have it machined to bring it into spec. Also Jim Butler gets his cranks from Ohio Crankshaft. Sorry for the long answer to a simple question.

Tim C

[GoatRider]

Tim I liked your long answer http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Who did you have inspect and do final machining on your Ohio Crankshaft crank? Someone around here?

Thanks,

John

[Tim Corcoran]

John

I am using Bud Yancer of Mach Development. He is here in Phoenix. He is slow but does top notch work. Bud has done some pretty high end work. He does some work for pro stock engines too. He used to be a crew chief for a pro stock team. He also has done some Pontiac race motors. He is doing some work on my heads and block too. He is going to blueprint the crank, polish the thrust surface and send the crank out for cryogenic treatment. He also is going to coat my piston tops, skirt and underside, and my bearings too. He does the coatings in house.

Tim C

[KGTO]

Thanks for the great info Tim.

Bud, I will let you know on the crank. But would I be able to stroke that crank? How much can I stroke a 455 crank?

Here is the link on the rods: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=33623&item=7931824049&rd=1

I am confused though, he says they are for a 400 crank with a 455 piston? 455 piston (std) is 4.210 bore and a 400 bored to .060" is 4.180"

[Jeff Walker]

Standard bore on a 455 is 4.15 not 4.210

[KGTO]

Duh http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif I had stroke on the brain http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

So these rods could be used in a 400 + .060" block with 30 over 455 pistons? I am trying to remember all the formulas for this stuff. The crank would be stroked to 3.79 to use a 6.855 rod?

[Jeff Walker]

Nahh, thats being bore and stroke dyslexic. http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
I just looked at the description of the rods you are looking at on ebay. All they are is a long rod for a stock stroke 400. Kinda like the Chevy guys using a 6 inch rod in a SB Chevy. By using the 455 piston in a 400 engine the pin height is higher allowing the use of a custom rod like these. Got it? http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[MikeC]

with these long rods, from what I gather, you will not be able to stroke your 400, unless you also get custom pistons that don't hit your heads. Is this correct.

[Jeff Walker]

Nope. A longer stroke or shorter for that matter has nothing to do with the connecting rod length. The stroke it determined by the crankshaft. All the longer rod does is give what some people feel is a better rod length to stroke ratio.

[GoatRider]

Jeff, I beg to differ...

Different pin heights on the pistons is what allows both 400's and 455's to use the same stock Pontiac rods. If you change to a longer than stock rod, then yes you need a custom piston (with a shorter pin height) to make the pistons top out even with the deck again.

(1/2 Stroke) + Rod Length + Piston Pin Height = Deck Height for "zero deck"

If you change any of the variables (Stroke, Rod, Piston) you MUST change one or both of the others accordingly to keep the deck height around 10.2 - 10.3"

[KGTO]

Yea, the R/S ratio is 1.83 with this combo. Mike, it was based on using the 455 pin height and a stock stroke 400 crank. So I think pistons could be cheaper using this setup since you could use "off the shelf" pistons. I am not sure, but if you had custom pistons made, a guy could possibly do a stroked 400 crank, like 3.75 (stock) to 3.795 (stroked) but the pin height would have to be higher. Maybe someone else could chime in if this would be a good/bad idea.

[Jeff Walker]

Yes GoatRider you're correct. I mistakenly http://pysales.com/images/spank.gifthough that MikeC meant you could increase displacement with just these rods. Sorrry for the confusion.

KGTO, how are you going to add any stroke without going to a custom crank as well? If the rods were a smaller journal size you could offset grind the crank, but don't these rods have the Pontiac size big end of 2.25"?

[KGTO]

Tell you the truth Jeff, I don't know. I emailed the guy a couple of days ago and he hasn't responded. If these rods have the Pontiac big end, the crank would have to be standard. I was just wondering if I wanted to use 6.855" rods could I stroke the crank and raise the pin height more? This would allow a really good R/S ratio and wouldn't it make the piston even lighter? Since the piston would then be shorter.