454 or 455

[SlinkyBMX]

Both are nice engines. I recently picked up a 454 at a very good price and was gonna shoehorn that into my 79 TA. But then I started considering a 455. I'm kinda stumped on what to choose. I havn't heard alot about the 455's. If anyone could list pros/cons, that would greatly help.

Thanks
Lars

[SlinkyBMX]

Both are nice engines. I recently picked up a 454 at a very good price and was gonna shoehorn that into my 79 TA. But then I started considering a 455. I'm kinda stumped on what to choose. I havn't heard alot about the 455's. If anyone could list pros/cons, that would greatly help.

Thanks
Lars

[Gary S.]

Well-
the 455 is a Pontiac engine.
To put anything but a Pontiac engine in a Pontiac is just blasphemy!!
They are great engines,and have plenty of torque.They don't rev high like a Chevy-they weren't designed to.They don't need to,either.You can get all the horsepower and torque you will ever need with a 455.
They were only made for about 7 years,so they are not near as common as any Chevy.

[goatnut4909]

go with a 455 whenever i se a pontiac with a chevy motor in it I lose all intrest that and when you pop the hood you can say its a 350/389/400ect with a 454 everyone knows what a 454 looks like and with a 454 it's like it not a pontiac anymore but a chevy pontiac all the way

[TA454]

the differance is COST and DURIBILITY of parts!!
A lot more reliable HP can be made with the BBC.All the pissing and moaning by the purist cant deny. High HP requires a good crank aint gonna get that in a 455. Unles of course you go with a billit crank. By the time you shell out $3000 for a billit 455 crank you could have built a COMPLETE short block BBC. Some here will complain that you gotta rev a chevy high to get power. thats BS. I only spin my 496 to 6300 rpms. Not only that i am still running a solid flat lifter cam. No need to spend the extra money for a roller. Also no lifter bore brakage either.
its all bout the Dollars and Cents basically less expensive makes COMMON SENSE!!!!!
Come on over to the dark side just make sure you have plenty of kleenex for the whiners!!

[MetalHead175]

Ignorance states that a 454 is a better engine than a 455. The crank on a 455 is bulletproof, ask around, you'll see the light.

[TA454]

cast crank is fine to a point. that i will agree. but if you think it will last in a Real high HP application . you gotta be smoking crack cause that what cast cranks do they crack under heavy load. Any cast crank will no matter what it is in. Chevy, ford , mopar ,and pontiac it dont matter a cast crank is INFERIOR to a FORGED one. Bullet proof yes but the last time I saw a motor blow it went off like a bomb not a gun!!!!
Ignorance also assumes something from nothing. Where did i say it was better. If you would stop being so ignorant yourself and reread the post i said it is more practical.

[MetalHead175]

I didn't state you were ignorant. I was stating that off the line the 455 would probably be a better motor. I do agree with you on the cheaper for parts idea. Parts are killer when you start to look at 3000 dollar cranks, 2100 dollar heads, thats a problem I am dealing with on my 455. It's all opinion. I know you can get a 454 to a 496 and make worlds of hp, my friend is doing that with a truck of his. I just dislike a Chevy in a Pontiac, but it is your car, and to each his own. Oh one more thing, take a built 454 and compete with one of these racers on this forum with a built 455 and lemme know who wins.

[firebum]

You use the word "ignorant" quite freely.

The truth is, if you want to ruin perfectly good Pontiac with a chevy truck engine, that certainly is you right.

Only 640 hp out of a 496?

Have a nice day,

Jim

[Mo]

Go with the 455. Your car is HEAVY. The 455 will produce a nice flat torque curve and produce more torque than the 454 in most cases. Also, BBC parts are cheaper but not by much. Look in summit and jegs. The small block stuff is way cheaper, not big block. If it is a street car your building, get jim hands book, it is a useful guild to Pontiac power, and go with the 455 or better yet, a 474!

[firebum]

Mo,

Great reply!

That says it all.

Jim

[mike nixon]

if these engines are relatively stock the pontiac will get better fuel milage than a chevy every time.

also the pontiac's components are made from better materials. ask any engine machinist, they'll agree with this.

mike

[Mr. P-Body]

As a builder of all things automotive engine..., I must agree with much of what has been said here.
There is little doubt, BBC is one of the finest powerplants ever made by anyone, especially for racing applications. It's not without drawbacks. It is very heavy. By using aluminum heads, one can shed a hundred pounds or so. But, aluminum heads for a BBC are MORE money than for a Pontiac (for good ones, at least). Also, as previously stated, BBC is more money than SBC, by a wide margin.
If your car is meant to handle like a T/A, use the Pontiac. You will maintain the factory "balance" in the chassis. A BBC would make it nose-heavy.
While peer pressure may or may not be an issue with you personally, what was said about being an "outcast" is true, if you look under the hood of an old Poncho and see a Chevy.
For street driving and occasional racing, the Pontiac is every bit as potent as the BBC, Perhaps moreso in a heavy car.
There are those that believe you can't make ANYTHING fast without a Chevy motor. This falls under the heading of "myth and superstition". Only a fool would say Chevy isn't a good engine, but the same fool might say the Pontiac's no good, as well.
As for the debate on cast versus forged cranks, it's absolutely true. Once you pass 700 horsepower, a stock crank can be a liability. Under that, the Pontiac is much stronger than the 454 cast crank. Chevy engines need the better cranks at a lower level.

[SlinkyBMX]

Wow, thanks guys! I think after whats been said here, I'm gonna go with a 455. Im only really looking for about 350-400 horse tops. Any more then that would be overkill for my use for this car. With that said. Can anyone recommend me a type of 455 to use. And some decent parts to buy. I'm willing to put about 3000 into it. I'll put more in later but the car has other needs.

So basically im looking for the best parts I can get in the 3000 range to get a pretty nice 455 going. Any recommendations?

Thanks again guys!
Lars

[WDCreech]

Slinky, Don't worry about the cast Pontiac crank. I run a 474 (4.25" stroke) that I spin 7100 with a factory crank and it makes 848hp at the flywheel. I feel that problems with Pontiac cranks are due to insufficient oiling. I run a Titan pump, but think that the oiling mods shown in another thread would accomplish th same results without the expence of a billet pump. For the street or street/strip, I don't even think that those mods need to be done. Just be sure all your clearances are right on and you have no flow restrictions.

[MetalHead175]

I believe that the best 455's can be found from 1970-74 after that i heard the blocks lost quality or something. If you have 3000 bucks you should probably fork out 1500 or whatever it takes to get a runner, that way you don't have to go through as many problems. Right now i have a '74 YY with 4X heads in my 68 GTO and it runs fantastic. As for parts if you only want 350-400 horespower you could use the Edelbrock Performer intake, Performer Plus cam and lifters, go with roller rockers (i'm going to use Scorpions), and i use a QJet up top because i feel they flow the best. I'm also looking into Keith Black Forged pistons. Oh and get your intake port matched, it helps. Hope that helps, your goina have fun!

[Mo]

Slinky, glad to hear your choice. You shouldn't have any issues with that power level. Get Jim Hands Book if you didn't already, from PY of course, it has some very useful info. The 455/6X head combo is very popular and a reliable performer with good streetability. Put your money in the heads and the power will follow. Good Luck!

[Bud Lyons]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Im only really looking for about 350-400 horse tops. Any more then that would be overkill <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>If it were me I would install a 400. I know your looking at a 455, but, a stroked 400 would give you those #'s real easy. 400 blocks are cheaper and much eaiser to find. Plus alot of builders offer a complete stroker kit to make your build pretty simple. Just something else to think about.

[goatnut4909]

great choice check out the performance parts and see if anyone has a 400/455 longblock you can buy

[heff]

the weight difference between a 454 and a 45 is probably so minor it would never matter. a 454 weighs 675lbs...an 389 weighs 650 and i would say a 455 weighs even more...so where's the big issue with weight? Not to mention a 79 T/A isn't going to have the best of weight dist anyway, it's always going to nose heavy. A total rebuild kit from Northern auto, for a 454(minus crank) ranges from $357 to $524(for late model engines), a 455 rebuild kit(minus crank) is 543. Svaings?
I say put whatever you have in the car, or whatever you want. The only difference is with the pontiac you won't have to swap trannies if your bellhousing bolt pattern is different. Another problem could be height differences between the 454 and 455...i can't find any info on that.

[SlinkyBMX]

I thought of a few parts I could get for it:
Edelbrock Pontiac 326-455 non egr performer intake
Edelbrock Performer Cam
Hooker Comp. Headers

I'm not sure what to use for a carb, rockers, ect. I want to keep the use of my shaker.

And also in choosing the engine. Long or short block, someone please ecplain the pros and cons. I belive it has to do with the stroke.

Thanks again

[MetalHead175]

A short block is the rotating assembly without the heads, or anything up top. A long block is heads, intake carb, pan, etc.

[TA454]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Heff:
Another problem could be height differences between the 454 and 455...i can't find any info on that. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A 454 with dual plane intake ( performer RPM or similar) fits under the stock hood just fine. Shaker needs to be mounted to the hood itself. as the carb does not line up with the shaker base

[Thumpin455_GTO]

For $3000 you can suck the headlights out of a 454 with the same money in it. I can find expensive places to quote to buy parts too. Shop around and you will see what things really cost.

How fast do you awnt to go? Got an idea as far as an ET?

The performer intake will work great. You can run some ported iron heads like 6X or 5C and make good power. To get only 350hp you dont need much for head work.

I like the Summit 2802 cam, you will need a small stall. Somewhere between 1900-2400 rpm, and with a 455 you will be able to keep the gears you have, (unless they are 2.56's Bonneville here we come!) but 2.73 to 3.42 will work just fine with it. Roller rockers are good but only the roller tip ones will fit under stock valve covers. Poly locks will need taller covers or spacers. I am running stock rockers on my GTO's 455. Its built very similar to Jim Hand's 455's. It makes alot of grunt down low and has put the 4200lb GTO thru the 1/4 in 13.51@105 with 2.93 gears and a 1900 stall stock GM converter. I have since switched to 3.42's but havent made a pass with it yet.

Get it balanced and use good parts, it will last forever. If you want a detailed description of my 455's just drop me an email [email protected]. The GTO has a $1700 455 with cast pistons and the Bird had a $2700 455 with JBP iron 670's 288-296 cam forged pistons, cast rods, torker II/850 holley and a 2100 stall that ran 11.71@115 weighing 3700lbs. That one with low CR heads would work really well for you, but run mid 12's.


TA454, how much you have in your 454 and what you run with it? I am only curious cuz I am workin on a new 455 for my Bird. I would be up for some grudge matches just for fun and finger pointing. New engine is more $$$ than I have spent on the entire GTO tho... which isnt really much.

[TA454]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Todd S.:
For $3000 you can suck the headlights out of a 454 with the same money in it.


TA454, how much you have in your 454 and what you run with it? I am only curious cuz I am workin on a new 455 for my Bird. I would be up for some grudge matches just for fun and finger pointing. New engine is more $$$ than I have spent on the entire GTO tho... which isnt really much. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Total bill for my rebuild in 2001 was $4000
That was for a new stroker crank, H- beam rods, JE pistons & pins , C&A ZGTF rings. freshen up heads which were new iron merlin oval ports in 95 so add $1200( what the heads cost in 95) New comp solid cam & lifters, timing set, All machine work Bore & Hone, clearance block for longer stroke/rod clearance. Assembly and gaskets.
I will admit my setup is a little mismatched. i am only running an 850 DP should probably use a 950 or larger. Also have smaller headers than optimum only 1 7/8 instead of 2 1/8. I also skimped on the cam only went with a solid instead of roller. But all of the mismatched components are simple fixes. The car would probably like more converter as i am only running a 3500.
But even with being under Carbed, Cammed, Convertered, and exhausted. My car has run a best of 10.74 on the foot brake with open pipes. And a 10.78 on the trans brake thru mufflers. Weight is 3600 lbs. suspension is Ladder Bars and coil overs with 29x9 hoosiers.
I thought of stepping it up but figured why bother. high 10's is good enough and running ultra conservitive will extend the duribility. Another plus of running conservitive is maintenance. I can get by all season only having to adjust the valves mabey 2 times.
I dont like to work at the track i take the hood off for tech and to remove or install air cleaner.
Grudge racing is always fun.

[BVR421]

TA454, high 10s @ 3600lbs gets my respect. no denying the potental of a big block. Did you swap that motor in or buy it that way? Your car sounds like my 76 was a few years ago, backhalfed with a BBC. It ended up a full tube car by the time I bought it as a roller this summer. With all the details Ive gone thru to convert back to Pontiac power, I cant imagine doing the job with a car still in street trim. Bad enough on a race car. Ive seen a lot of Pontiacs with BBs but it always looked like a lot of work when cameros are so easy to find.

[TA454]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BVR421:
TA454, high 10s @ 3600lbs gets my respect. no denying the potental of a big block. Did you swap that motor in or buy it that way? Your car sounds like my 76 was a few years ago, backhalfed with a BBC. . <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you
respect is a little hard to get round here if you dare to be different. Or vary from what is considered to be the popular opinion.
Actually i saved the car from the crusher. Mine is also a 76. originally a 455 4speed car. The guy i bought it from beat it to within an inch of its life. Obvously i knew the prevous owner he said the motor had a bad knock. I never even drove it figured what the hell $750 for a solid body was a good deal 14 yrs ago. Then it sat in the driveway for a couple of years. One of those I will get to it "SOMEDAY" deals.
My father had an old 454 and TH400 out of an old suburban in the garage. He also has a 73 455 4speed TA that upon retiring is going to restore. since that is a more desirable car figured my motor would be better used as a spare for his car. After all at that time they were only getting harder to find. Plus i had no intention of remaining anywhere near stock.
Needless to say in went a stock 100000 mile 454 from a 73 burban. A little tweeking I got it to run 13.3 still on a stock motor. Then like anything else once you get hooked just keep adding to it.
Actually it was not a lot of work. The factory fuel lines are too small to properly feed any kind of high HP motor so the relocation of them is a nonissue. Most people put battery in trunk anyhow again a nonissue. infact the handeling of the car was great when i first did it with stock suspension. had great road manners and that stock truck motor got 15 mpg even with 4:11 gears. The only "street trim "item i did not keep at first was the AC.
It was a basic case of making due with what i had available. Had the original moror have run i would probably went that way.

[WDCreech]

I wasn't going to post on this, but TA454, you said respect is a little hard to get "if you dare to be different". Look around, the majority of people, put Chevys in anything. For the same money, a Pontiac will "suck the headlights" out of a Chevy. To be different one should run whatever brand engine came in the car. I have a lot more respect for someone that has a 454 in a shoebox than someone that has one in a '40 Ford. If you want to run a Chevy, put it in a Chevy. Please....

[TA454]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WDCreech:
I wasn't going to post on this, but TA454, you said respect is a little hard to get "if you dare to be different". Look around, the majority of people, put Chevys in anything. For the same money, a Pontiac will "suck the headlights" out of a Chevy. To be different one should run whatever brand engine came in the car. I have a lot more respect for someone that has a 454 in a shoebox than someone that has one in a '40 Ford. If you want to run a Chevy, put it in a Chevy. Please.... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That is why YOUR car is YOURS and mine is mine. I have no more right telling you what you should do with yours than you do telling me what to do with mine. The original post was an inquiry into how to do the conversion. i stated FACTUAL info. Others had to interject with their personal OPINIONS.
Hot rodding is a lot like Burger King "...have it your way and i will have it mine.
i am not intolerant as to how people participate in the hobby. As i see it any car that is kept out of the junk yard. and away from the crusher deserves some degree of respect.And their owners who are preserving our heritage deserve to be commended.
There is alot more work that goes into doing a conversion than just replacing one component with the exact same thing that it came with.

[Thumpin455_GTO]

TA454 you can run whatever engine you like. I for one just dont like workin on Chevy engines. Not as good engineering IMO. Especially small blocks, I just cant stand having to pull the oil pan to change the cam. Doesnt make sense to me, among other things. So my preference is Pontiacs, and I put them in everything. http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I dont like the extra work involved with putting a Chevy in a Pontiac and it makes me sad when I see a sbc where a 400 or 455HO once sat, especially in GTO's. For some reason I didnt mind the extra work of putting a 400HO in my 76 shortbox 1/2 ton, maybe its the pulling power it has now and good mileage that made it worth it.

I just dont agree with lets throw a chevy in there because its the only way to go fast. Thats the attitude I have read in magazines and heard on the street. Like a guy running 13.8 in an 86 Monte can tell me much about goin fast when my 455 ran 11's for $2700. Like I want to spend more to go slower, it doesnt make sense to me.

You hade a 454 and a body sittin there with no engine. Makes sense to me. But when you already have a 455 and you pull it for a chevy, then I wonder about the sanity and forward thinking. Or is it just following the crowd? Theres not much that is different about putttin a chevy in something. I just like my Pontiacs, they go fast for cheap. BTW the new engnie should be a tad faster than the old one. I'll let ya know how it runs in a month or so.

[Mr. P-Body]

Todd, there ARE ways of getting the timing cover off the small block without pulling the pan. Moroso even makes a "modified" one for that very purpose.
TA454, I must echo what another has said. You're not "daring to be different" by shoving a rat in ANYTHING. I've seen Mustangs lately, with BBCs in them. Virtually ALL of the "modern" street rods I've seen (built in the last three or four years) have 502 "craters" in them.
I also agree, it's your car, do with it as you please. But don't try to sell the "Chevy is better" around here, as you're talking to deaf ears. Pontiac people like Pontiac motors, as well as Pontiac style. It's an attitude thing.
As a professional engine builder, I can tell you for sure. Big block Chevy is one of the finest power plants ever designed for automotive applications. The single biggest drawback is the weight. MASSIVE. But tough as nails, and puts out SERIOUS power when properly built.

[Thumpin455_GTO]

Agreed there are ways to do it, but millions of sbc in cars and trucks dont have the trick parts on them. To me getting a good seal without pullin the pan down in front and losening the entire thing is annoying at best.

TA454 has a good running car, its just one that I wont build. Different is putting anything else into a Chevy. lol...

[Herb Hagan]

You can run whatever you want, but you can't come play with the rest of us at any of the Pontiac events, NO BB CHEBBIES NEED APPLY!
Herb

[TA454]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Goatnad:
You can run whatever you want, but you can't come play with the rest of us at any of the Pontiac events, NO BB CHEBBIES NEED APPLY!
Herb <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Since when?
You gotta read the rules a little better.
I have been to them all MANY times. The ONLY exclusions based on brand of motor is the quick 16. At Norwalk and VMP.
Kinda funny how my car wound up on the flyer for the Island Dragway show. HA-HA!!
Thera are a lot more of us than you think at the "Pontiacs Only" events. The only differance is I DO NOT hide it. If you do enough poking around at the events you will find others with BUICK, OLDS, what ever lurking under the hoods of a lot of cars that are not "supposed" to have them.
Like i stated earlier the original post was an inquiry into how to do the conversion. I stated factual info others had to interject with personal biased/ignorant/intolerant opinion.
personal opinion has no connection to fact.
After all that IS what this entire forum is all about hobbiest aiding other hobbiest in the preservation and improvement of old cars?
P.S.
herb see you at the pontiac events next year BUDDY!!

[a-train]

I have a 454 in my 80 and I really like it. (I don't have times or anything so don't ask.) My car originally had the 301T motor, aka 'the anchor' in it. It ran for 160,000+ mile - barely, but it still ran. I actually started out wanting to get the 301 rebuilt. My motor guy told my that I probably wasn't gonna get too much out of the 301 without spending $$$ and he didn't know of any 400s or 455s for sale or trade around there. He suggested a BBC and guaranteed me I'd love it. I have never thought twice about yanking the 301 for the 454 and so far have no desire to switch it out for a poncho.

I'm not saying one is better than the other, but like TA said if its your car do with it what you want.

[78 GHOST]

TA, you're doing what makes you happy and that is what matters.

Andy, that is a beautiful car. Too bad your machinist couldn't/wouldn't find a Pontiac for ya. http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif 400s and are plentiful and powerful.

In my opinion, you gotta work with what you have first and foremost. Some people aren't made of money or can afford to go through a new engine. THAT I can understand.

Chevy's are fine engines. Pontiac's are fine engines. I think the determining factor in this is more directly related to how well the package is selected, prepared, and tuned.

Even if Chevy and Pontiac power offered identical power, I'd side with Pontiac due to many differences that simply make sense to me. Not pulling dist. to change intake. Front cover arrangement. etc.

[bmpmdf]

HAVING BUILT ALL OF THEM, I STILL PREFER THE PONTIAC V8. IT IS A BETTER DESIGNED ENGINE. TOO BAD THE AFTERMARKET DIDN'T MAKE DESENT PARTS FOR IT FOR 30 YEARS. BUT THEN, WHEN CHEVY GUYS ARE BUYING AFTERMARKET PARTS JUST TO KEEP UP WITH STOCK PONTIACS, I GUESS THE AFTERMARKET FELT THEY OWED THE CHEVY GUYS.

[Banditone]

Being a purist I would never stick a Chevy in a Pontiac-there was a local street racer HERE that owned a 74 455SD TRANS AM that would smoke a 70 LS6 454 CHEVELLE by an average of three car lengths every time-the CHEVELLE was souped 12-1 comp.HOLLEY 850 4.88 gears etc.-the TRANS AM was setup to HO RACING SPECS-KEN CROCIE-you might even remember him --- 3.55 GEARS-12 BOLT -HO RACING CAM 550 LIFT -RHODES lifters HOOKER 2 Inch prim. headers--TORKER INTAKE-Worked 800 QUADRAJET-3500 STALL-full manual valve body etc. simple bolt on stuff-the owner of the T/A mentioned how the CHEVELLE would be smoking the tires trying to catch him coming out of the hole--79 T/A with the 455 get a set of CROWER RODS -very reasonably priced-A NODULAR CRANK-pretty stout piece--I've seen these cranks in big PONTIACS etc--so they should be plentiful--work with a GOOD local PONTIAC MECHANIC or try PAUL SPOTTS etc.--they'll set you up right-with out breaking the bank http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.Heres a great pic of a 73 455SD TRANS AM pulling a holeshot http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

[Banditone]

Keeping the beast under control http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

[T/A462]

Look at the smile on the passenger. That cracks me up, lol. TA454, high 10's is great, very respectable and probably faster then most people here.

[SlinkyBMX]

Thanks guys again!

I been on my search for the 455. Im not familar with prices tho. I really want a HO but I dont know how much they go for. I just want a pretty stock one long or short, to build off of. Any ideas on the price? Looking for an automatic one. Also what about the price of a regular pontiac 455? Thanks guys!

Lars

[TA454]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BANDITONE:
the owner ot the T/A mentioned how the CHEVELLE would be smoking the tires trying to catch him coming out of the hole. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Common sense would tell you that smoking the tires out of the hole is a sign of overpowering the available traction. Therefore if one vechile WAS overpowering the available traction while the other was not. Must clearly mean that the one not spinning the tires upon launch simply is too underpowered to overpower the available traction.
Hell put John Force's funny car in a STREET RACE against a 12 second car. Chances are the 12 second car will have an easier time finding traction and would actually have a chance at winning. It all comes down to the EFFICIENT use of power.
That is the mustang's success story NOT overpowering the launch.
On the street you can oftentimes do better with less power.

[Banditone]

TA454-your right-traction is the name of the game-you do have one quick T/A-even though I would'nt go the chevy route--smoke some vette's etc. http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif .

[motroman]

Well,...I'm new to this site and I own an unusual TransAm. It's a 71 with an original(bought from a Chevy dealer in 1974, 454 LS6 Chevy big block).

I love the car. I love the engine. I can email you pictures and the original magazine articles that will tell you why the car is the way it is.

It was originally owned by BFG, one of 5, to promote it's then new Radial T/A tires. Tom Senter, a famous engine builder of the 60's and 70's, plus a columnist/writer for Popular HotRodding, Car Life, and other mags bought the car from BFG when it was basically trashed, including the orignal 455 HO. He searched in vain for an SD, but couldn't find it. That's when he put in the LS6. I have his original magazine articles talking about the restoration and the engine switch. The car is basically the same as it when he had it, except it now has a Turbo400 instead of an M22.

I bought the T/A from the fourth owner who purchased the car in the middle 80's and kept it in a barn near Fresno since 1989. He would start it three or four times a year and run it around the farm. It hasn't been registered for the street since 1989.

The T/A has 38k and looks great with the original Minilite wheels. I've had to do a lot of minor repairs;heater core, carb, valve stem seals, shocks, motor mounts, tires, etc.

But it's super fast and super fun. It's my favorite and as you can see by my signature, it has some good competition.

[ujt389]

With that kind of power, a pontiac 455 will fit the bill perfectly. You could almost do a stock rebuild and get that much. The 454 becomes more econimical around the 600 hp range when just about everything on the motor has to be aftermarket. That is a hard thing for me to say because I am a ford guy, and the grudge between ford and chevy is a little bigger in my opinion, but the truth is the truth.

[JSAauto]

A bone stock Poncho 455 makes about 500 ft lbs torque. Even at 8:1 compression and only 300hp stock (later emissions 455's), the torque is what moves the vehicle at low engine speeds. The BBC is not as fruitfull in the torque dept at the same RPM's due to it's rod/stroke/bore combo, but then again, the HP potential is MUCH greater when you are talking stock parts vs. stock parts, and its definetly in the BBC's favor.

A Rec port Chevy BB will easily go .060-.080 overbore producing a 468-471 cu in motor without touching the stock crank. With the right compression, heads, carb, and cam will easily make 700 hp. If you look at NHRA stock and super stock, you'll see the BBC and the Chrysler Hemis dominate the field. And they are making more than 700 hp using archaic iron parts. When you match what was available in stock form for these engines, the comparison is night and day.

I too am a professional engine builder and mechanic that has been racing Pontiacs for over 20 years. I love Pontiacs. I have respect for many many different engine manufactureres. Wanna see some really amazing "factory" racing parts, look at Honda and Mercedes. But common sense tells you that the BBC is really hard to beat when you use NHRA's standards. Because that's where the playing field is totally leveled. Well..... if you're a Poncho racer in a chevy/hemi world, you may not like NHRA's decisions sometimes to "level" that "playing field".

Someone mentioned weight as an issue. That is totally rediculous!! The BBC weighs less than a 455 Poncho. It's a fact. And the thing about the timing cover doesn't make sense. The timing cover on a Poncho requires removing 4 oil pan bolts, the Chevy requires removing 2. Grind/modify the area where the front oil pan seal lies on the BBC, and I can take my cover off and on all day without loosening the farther forward bolts on the oil pan. A little ultra grey silicone makes it leak proof. Or take my Comp Cams cover for instance.......... I don't have to do anything to get the cam out except remove 4 bolts for the water pump and an inspection plate. I haven't seen a cover like this for Ponchos?? Correct me if I'm wrong. On the Ponchos... you've got the leak potential of the water connection at the back of the timing cover meeting the forward intake manifold, and what seems like a million bolts holding on the water pump. Not sure which is worse though..... having to tighten a crank bolt to 150 ft. lbs. or use a harmonic balancer puller to take on and off the balancer. You decide.

I feel jumping all over 454TA is wrong, but I also know why he's getting the flack from the Poncho purests. SlinkyBMX posted in the right area of the PY board (Non Pontiac motors in Pontiacs) and so 454TA shouldn't be getting flack for that. If he's making a "guesstimated" 660hp from his BBC with small headers, small heads (oval ports), and a small carb, imagine how fast he would run if he were to install a pair of FACTORY rectangle port heads, put the right 2"+ headers on, a dominator, and a 5000 stall converter!! I don't think there would be many Poncho's normally aspirated keeping up with him even with RAV heads. Or maybe a walk over to the PSCA or any other "heads up" racing event will clear the air of the Ponchos vs Chevies arguement? Seems like its a Ford/Chevy domination most of the time.

Thankfully people are starting to make some REALLY NICE aftermarket pieces so the Ponchos can compete with the Bowtie boys (i.e. IA blocks, Tiger heads, etc). So now were going to start seeing alot more Ponchos knocking on the Fords and Chevies doors. Its about time. Will love to see a Bowtied 565 get it's ass handed to him by something that resembles a Poncho motor. Imagine the looks on their faces!!

Ask me?? I say put a factory 2006 Corvette LS7 427 motor in it and piss everyone off!! 505 horsepower, 475 ft lbs of torque, quiet, smooth idle, and gas milage!! LOL!!

http://www.corvettemuseum.com/specs/2006/LS7.shtml

[BVR421]

Someone mentioned weight as an issue. That is totally rediculous!! The BBC weighs less than a 455 Poncho. It's a fact.
arent you getting a little ethusiastic? I lost nearly a hundred lbs replacing a iron head 454 with a ironhead 455

[Department X]

My 64 came with a 454 it runs ok but has been depressing trying to get the pontiac back under the hood . It seems the 454 likes every thing on the wrong side of the motor. As for the Ls1 Crap they aren't perfect, I have a friend who has been modifying his vett for years . He has had problems with the sleeves, burning oil, oilpan leaking, harmonic balancer and my favorite his short stubby crank (try to install supercharger). I don't like the power curve, nothing at idle ,nothind at 2500 500hp at 3000rpm

[JSAauto]

BVR421.... I may be wrong, but the last time I looked it up (years ago) I could swear they were lbs. away from each other. I'll have to check. But it sure seems like both the Poncho and the BBC make my engine stand lean just as badly.

Dept X.... yeah. I agree. The LS1 stuff has been a learning curve like anything else, but we've managed to work out any bugs they've had in the beginnings. If you're freind is having problems with the sleeves, then it sounds like a problem with his machinist, not the engine. Oil burning is also solved if the correct windage modifications were done to the block. And an oil pan leaking?? Sounds like he didn't seal it properly. One thing we never have is oil leaking issues with these motors, their gasketing is awesome. And again... we have absolutely no problem with blowers or mountings. Between Procharger and my friend Andy and A&A Corvette, we have made damn near 1000 rear wheel horsepower with customers cars on pump gas. And they are still very tame in the driveability dept.

I think for what he's looking for, the stock torque factor of the 455 will be more well suited for what this guy is going for.

I was basically throwing in the LS7 to stir the pot. ;)

[Mr. P-Body]

JSAuto,

I agree with you completely on LSx. What an engine! Nothing's perfect, of course, but these little engines are awesome. Far and away, the best pushrod engines ever (IMO). I find it a bit ironic the bore/stroke for the "427" LS7 is actually the same as 428 (Pontiac). The more we change, the more we stay the same...

Rather than looking it up, you must actually WEIGH the blocks. Published data has a habit of being less than accurate. Nothing like actually doing the leg-work.

Jim

[JC455]

Sorry for the Hijack- Motroman, are you near Fresno?
Thanks, now back to the previously scheduled program.

[TA454]

I feel jumping all over 454TA is wrong, but I also know why he's getting the flack from the Poncho purests. SlinkyBMX posted in the right area of the PY board (Non Pontiac motors in Pontiacs) and so 454TA shouldn't be getting flack for that. If he's making a "guesstimated" 660hp from his BBC with small headers, small heads (oval ports), and a small carb, imagine how fast he would run if he were to install a pair of FACTORY rectangle port heads, put the right 2"+ headers on, a dominator, and a 5000 stall converter!! I don't think there would be many Poncho's normally aspirated keeping up with him even with RAV heads.


Thanks JS I appreciate that

[7T2]

concensus figs i have seen vary slightly, but weights are generally as follows:

sbc 475lbs
pont 550lbs
bbc 625lbs

75lb delta is negligible when considering power potential. the ia and butler alum blocks have leveled the playing field in that area. the bbc still has the advantage in cyl heads, but pontiac has been and will be making up ground in that dept soon.
so you guys on the fence dont give up your 455 just yet!

[Cornholio]

This is interesting. The most common practice of building a Pontiac seems to be to swap in a Chevy....even the factory used them after the demise of the traditional Pontiac engine.
Does it make it right? Yes or no, depending on what side of the coin you're on.
It does bother me when I see a Chevy in a nice vintage Pontiac (or anything else for that matter). But there are times when money, resources, availability, or time conspire to make people lean towards the Chevy side.
I think TA is enjoying his car as much as anyone else is enjoying theirs.
I would never butcher anything highly desireable to put in a different motor, unless it was a basket case or in 'near death' condition.
But theres a difference between putting in a different motor and having the whole vehicle still intact, than letting it go to the crusher where it will never exist again!
Sometimes you have to take the lesser of two evils, and it seems like thats what TA was faced with when he got his car.
What I dislike, is that general "Chevy attitude" that lots of people have that states that 'only a Chevy is fast'.
I've learned to never underestimate anything. The first thing that usually happens is that the very thing you dismiss as being inferior, will be the very thing that whoops your ass!
I've heard all kinds of anti- Ford, Pontiac, Mopar, Buick, Olds, etc. propaganda from that elitist Chevy crowd.
Being biased can be dangerous! I can appriciate all musclecars! they all have their pro's & cons.
But it seems like some of these hard core Chevy guys like to force their opinions on everyone that only Chevy is so superior to everything else, that others are wasting their time if its not a Chevy.
Of course I disagree with that biased mentality, and then there are those Chevy guys who are not so 'militant' about it, but are rather calm, cool, and collected.
To each, their own, I guess. But those who have pumped up ego's always fall the hardest!
I like to see a Pontiac in a Pontiac......ultimately, its good for the soul! :beerchug:

[WhitecatD]

have any of you guys seen the movie Two Lane black Top?

[rich seibert]

saw a few minutes of it......... while surfing
chevy guys told a lie,it looked like a smallblock.........

[WhitecatD]

if your talking about the motor in the '55 then it was a big block. there is an easy way to tell chevy small blocks apart from big blocks. you look at the exhaust ports, if all four are evenly spaced then it is a big block, if there are two of them right next to each other in the middle then it is a small block.

[71SportRagtop]

I don't know what Chevy guys some of you are talking to??? I was a Chevy guy for about 15 years. I had respect for all makes and models. Ford, Chrysler, Buick and Pontiac all put out fast cars. You guys who are talking about the Chevy elitists are talking to the wrong people. Most of my buddies who were into Chevelles and Camaros also LOVED GTO's. Everyone knows GTO's were fast. So were Chevelles. So were 442's, and Buick GS's. If you don't know that you are in the wrong hobby.

Let's look at it another way take 1970:

70 GS Stage 1
70 Chevelle L-S6
70 442 W-30
70 GTO 400 Ram Air IV
70 426 Hemi Cuda
69-1/2 440 6 pack Road Runner

All fast, all great looking cars. On any given day not one of them is going to totally dominate the field. One day the Chevelle might be the top car and the next it might be the GTO, or the Hemi. What about engine trans combo's?? You guys make blanket statements about motors you don't consider the set up. I'll take a small block 4 speed Camaro with 3:73 gears and smoke you're fully loaded 400, auto, 3:23 geared, air conditioned GTO anyday. Does that make Chevy better than Pontiac?? NO, only if you don't know what you're talking about. The next day someone else's 400 Ram Air 68 Firebird might smoke a big block Chevelle. There is more to racing/power than engine size. I'll tell you Pontiac purists one thing, in all the musclecar stock drags I have ever read about it's usually a GS Stage 1, a Hemi Mopar and a big block Camaro that dominate. I have read a lot about the pure stock drags and those are usually the 3 big hitters. I don't see too many Pontiacs making it deep into the finals.

I don't even want to get into the driver himself. I don't care if you have 600HP on tap if you can't drive, I'll smoke you with my 97 Tahoe.

Look last time I looked it was a free country, if TA454 wants to run a big block Chevy in his TA, what do I care?? Running a big block Chevy in a track car is fine in my book. If he had a 70 Judge Convertible and he pulled out the Ram Air IV for a 454 then I might think he's got a screw loose.

I like Pontiac and Chevy the best. For a lot of years I had Chevelles, but I really liked GTO's as well. My 67 Chevelle with a SMALL BLOCK ran 13.34. I built the motor for about $2000.00. That's pretty cheap to get low 13's on street tires. When I came across a nice Pontiac convertible, I sold my Chevelle and bought the Pontiac. Personally, my Pontiac is kind of rare (1 of 2800 made) so I will stick to a Pontiac motor. But I don't see why it's such a cardinal sin for a guy to drop a big block Chevy in his track car. Give the guy a break his car runs in the 10's. That's faster than I have ever run.

[68addict]

71 sportragtop.....well said!!!!

I love goats but I love superbee six pack cars from 69...too LOL :heh:

[Velox65]

Get a pair of these for a 421 and run em against a BBC and we'll see who win's

[TA454]

Get a pair of these for a 421 and run em against a BBC and we'll see who win's
it was tried. yes they did work good but not good enough!!
still had the same problems of size limitations,duribility of the internal components.

[7T2]

WOW- how interesting...
i spent the day flow benching a couple of different BBC heads. an edelbrock performer rpm and a open chamber rect iron head.
impressions:
the first thing are the visual differences between the "good" intake port and the "not so good" one. 40cfm worth of difference @ .700". the 26 degree primary intake valve angle requires such a deep chamber-no wonder theyre all 110+cc. the valves are huge. conventional wisdom says for better breathing. but the valves and chambers overlap the cylinder walls even on a 4.5" bore fixture.
ive never flowed bbc stuff before, but they sure do look intimidating at first glance. the rect port has a huge opening, but the port design doesnt follow the valve cant? it only flowed marginally better than the much smaller perf rpm 335 vs 320(again good port). 4.25 bore.

ive gotta hand it to you TA454, you take all the guff and come right back in when the bell rings. that in itself deserves respect.
but i gotta ask the burning qwuestion:
if a canted valve pontiac head-big valve covers and all-became available. with out-of-box matched flow #'s of brodix, merlin,etc- at the same or better price-using off the shelf valvetrain componentry; would you put a poncho back in your TA?
jim

[TA454]

but i gotta ask the burning qwuestion:
if a canted valve pontiac head-big valve covers and all-became available. with out-of-box matched flow #'s of brodix, merlin,etc- at the same or better price-using off the shelf valvetrain componentry; would you put a poncho back in your TA?
jim

If i had to start from scratch. With no usable parts -Buying everything from the ground up. As long as dollar for dollar. The durability issues were addressed(No risk of lifter bore breakege, forged crankshaft availibility,ect..}
sure i would. But the forged cranks will NEVER be cost effective compared to the chevy. The stock pontiac block will allways have a tendancy to break the lifter bore.

Besides with the GM crate engines it is a no brainer any more. It is not worth building an engine yourself anymore.Hopefully my next move will be a GM 572. In a few years.

[7T2]

just pulled these #'s from my handy summit catalog. a gm perf parts zz572 lists for 13g's + s&h. its complete from carb to pan. 620 hp on 9.6cr. hyd roller. world products has a 675hp entry w/alum heads for $11,5
comparing those hp #'s to www.butlerperformance.com, they have a carb to pan 650hp entry for 11g's +s&h. but its a stock block and cast crank. fewer cubes and probably not as durable as a new gmpp block. but if you upgrade the stock poncho for a new ia or kre- the difference in price would probably be about $12-1400 more, since you dont have to pay for all the block prep and 4 bolt caps, line bore, etc. if youve seen the race boards lately, you know that IA is set to release a group of forged cranks this summer. 4-4.5" stroke for $11-1400 target.
add these two upgrades in and you have a 540ci poncho that should have the same durability as the chevy- for about the same price!
lets face it, 13gs is alot of money- if youve got it...
can you hook a brother up?????????????
jim

[TA454]

1400 is what the complete rotating assembly cost for my current 496.

"lets face it, 13gs is alot of money"

Notice i said "hopefully" in refering to the 572 . In reality it is what it is and most likely it is staying. If anything might lower compression to make it more streetable/less dependant on race fuel.

[7T2]

okay,
summit forged bbc 4.25(496) strokers are $750. rebuilt 7/16" bolt hi po rods are probably cheap $200 or so, and 1.415" pin ht stroker pistons are around $4-500. summation agreed.
plan b- forged ia stroker $1250(median) 6.7" h-beam rods-$500, 450g flat top ross-$500. difference of about a grand....but!
what design rods are included with the $1400 bbc pkg? are they 6.7"?
are the pistons lightweight 450g?
certainly-as you stated, the dominating factor is the "start from scratch" supposition. if you had to buy a poncho block and prep, then these prices are irrelevant.
so do you have any poncho engine parts from your t/a?
jim

[TA454]

My rotating assembly consist of an Eagle stroker crank ,Eagle H-beam rods i think they are 6.8 long, JE SRP pistons. I did upgrade the kit from standard rings to C&A ZGTF for an extra $100.
As far as the original parts I traded a non running 455 and 4 speed for my first (90,000 mile)454 and turbo 400 straight out of a suburban.

[7T2]

was that the street/strip rotating assembly or the competition assembly?

[TA454]

the competition assembly

[7T2]

alright then, lets go to the eagle specialty products catalog (ive got a '05-'06 issue since im a dealer for eagle). hmm, the competition rotating assemblies p/n 11012 is the small solid 18cc dome for 10.5 to 1 cr; p/n 11013 is the hollow 43cc dome for about 12.5 to 1.
WOW! you got an incredible deal for $1400!
says here either of those assemblies lists for $2,218.75. jobber is $1775.00.
did you get that several years back? or was it some kind of "blow out" sale? anyway, if you can still get that kind of deal- this eagle dealer is ready to ditch the factory direct and start buying from TA454.com.

[TA454]

alright then, lets go to the eagle specialty products catalog (ive got a '05-'06 issue since im a dealer for eagle). hmm, the competition rotating assemblies p/n 11012 is the small solid 18cc dome for 10.5 to 1 cr; p/n 11013 is the hollow 43cc dome for about 12.5 to 1.
WOW! you got an incredible deal for $1400!
says here either of those assemblies lists for $2,218.75. jobber is $1775.00.
did you get that several years back? or was it some kind of "blow out" sale? anyway, if you can still get that kind of deal- this eagle dealer is ready to ditch the factory direct and start buying from TA454.com.

Whatever dude my motor was built back in 2001 what is your point.i dont have to justify my choice to you or anybody. So if you have a point to make just come out with it.

[disc0monkey]

people are making over 1000hp on a oem crank by blowing 22psi with twin turbos

[JSAauto]

people are making over 1000hp on a oem crank by blowing 22psi with twin turbos

A cast crank huh?? I don't think so. And if someone did or does, it won't last long. Any pro engine builder will tell you that. Ask Rodney Butler... he'll explain it to you.