Hot News! IA II/Butler Performance Aluminum Block

[Robert C.]

We want everyone to officially know that Butler Performance and AllPontiac.com have teamed up and will produce the IA II/Butler Performance Aluminum Block. The block will be sold exclusively through Butler Performance.

We will have pre-production castings before the end of the year, and we will use the same steps for quality control and testing that AllPontiac used for the iron IA II blocks.

Blocks will be available early next year after all testing is completed.

Price will be announced by December 1 2004

We will keep you informed as things progress.

Frank G./Bob C./David Butler

[Robert C.]

We want everyone to officially know that Butler Performance and AllPontiac.com have teamed up and will produce the IA II/Butler Performance Aluminum Block. The block will be sold exclusively through Butler Performance.

We will have pre-production castings before the end of the year, and we will use the same steps for quality control and testing that AllPontiac used for the iron IA II blocks.

Blocks will be available early next year after all testing is completed.

Price will be announced by December 1 2004

We will keep you informed as things progress.

Frank G./Bob C./David Butler

[johnta1]

Cool! http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

[Brian Baker]

Just got off the phone with Bob. It's all good news. Gotta' call Butler Performance to get one, do not call Bob, he'll just redirect you to call Butler. Now I've got to figure out how to pay for one this soon. http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[Tom Vaught]

Agree that this is great news!

Tom V.

[rumair]

how much will it weigh? http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Brian Baker]

Bob said it's going to come in around 118 lbs. give or take.

[larry davis]

Excellent!

[Ray Cox]

ah Bob ! and I was doing so good holding back and not spilling the beans!

Great news!

[PONTIAC DUDE]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ray Cox:
ah Bob ! and I was doing so good holding back and not spilling the beans!

Great news! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[WDCreech]

Will it be offered as a water block, a dry block or both?

[crossbreed455]

ok news have to get it from one person.

[Brian Baker]

I was asked by another party to post this question:

Will the availability of a solid block (ie - no water jackets) be possible?

[Ray Cox]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Brian Baker:
I was asked by another party to post this question:

Will the availability of a solid block (ie - no water jackets) be possible? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> why bother Brian it would cost to much and not be good enough for that person

[Ray Cox]

A big thanks to

Bob,Frank,Jim,David,and Rodney for there hard work and dedication to bring us these products

[Brian Baker]

Actually, Ray...I think it would. With Bob and Frank involved, it would. Only problem is, would it be economically feasible to cast one block like this, when they are already setting up to cast the other 49 a particular way?

Seems to me it would not be a good deal for either party.

[Ray Cox]

Brian you miss read my post

[Robert C.]

U'all are very welcome. David and Rodney and Jim did all of the leg work on this one. We could not make this possible with out their help. Please don't ware them out with your questions; they are very busy running a great business.

This is what Frank and I and the Butlers want to offer:

First the weight: The weight will be a little more then the first aluminum because we added more metal in the mains and side walls. So we do not have the final weight yet. Expect it close to their weight of the first Butler Performance Block estimated at 115lbs. give or take a few.

Water Jackets: Will be the same as IA II cast Iron block. The deck will be dry. You will drill your own water holes for you head gasket.

There will be only one bore size at first 4.245 bore STD. O Ringed cylinders at the factory STD. Bronze lifter guides STD. All tapped holes will have Heil Coils STD. You will install all of them except the mains. We will supply the installing tool and Heil Coils. ARP Main bolts std. Steel main caps registered in the block 1/8 deep STD. Freeze plugs threaded STD. This will add a bunch of outside wall strength. Front oil hole to the first main web to the outside of the block for Turbo oiling STD. Block will be Heat Treated to T6 temper. We are look into Cryonics deep freezing to stabilize the aluminum. The jury is still out on that one.

Tom V. if you can offer any help on this project please call me. If anyone has any concerns about a need or wants e-mail us at Allpontiac.com or post your questions on this site.

Testing will be done by Butler Performance Group before releasing the Blocks for production. And it will be a quick process.

Frank and I want to thank the Butler Performance Group too.

[Tom Vaught]

Bob,

I will be glad to help anyway I can in this great
project.

The Butlers have always be receptive to my suggestions in the past and I think that will continue in your case too.

What cam journal size are you putting in this block as delivered?

Tom V.

[Robert C.]

I will get an answer to this from David and get back to you later. I think the plan is to use the same size that is STD on the IA II.

[tom s]

Bob,or Tom,what if anything can be done to address porosity with alu?I know its has been and maybe still is a problem,also does alu have more core shift problems than iron?NBD on a dry block but is on a water block.Tom

[Robert C.]

Thanks for helping Tom.

We are having made 20 crank shaft heat sinks and 20 valley pan heat sinks made to cool the block after pouring. We will pass a cooling water thru them to cool the pour. This thing will be like jellow for a long while after it is poured and we need to cool it fast. We will cut up many blocks as we did before to not guess as to what is happening, but know what is happening inside.

[FantomPoncho]

Ok, I'll ask the question noone else has asked: Cost???

[Brian Baker]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FantomPoncho:
Ok, I'll ask the question noone else has asked: Cost??? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

To be anounced in December, like Bob said. http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[Mo]

I bet it will be more than one of those classic $100 blocks, LOL.

[EnergyFX]

AWESOME!!!

[Brian Baker]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mo:
I bet it will be more than one of those classic $100 blocks, LOL. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And unlike that block, it will be stronger AND repairable...oh, and lighter too. http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Tom Vaught]

Agree that the key for core shift and exclusions
is a proper pour with the correct cooling strategy.

The porosity issue is more prevalent on the aluminum blocks
as you mentioned Tom S but can be worked out with the right
thought process.

If the IA-2/Butler AL blocks are cast by the same source as
before they should know how to do this having worked with AL
in the past on other projects.

Tom V.

I will speak with our block guy to see if there are any other
magic bullits out there too.

[Robert C.]

Tom and Gang, It will be casted by our casting house. And machined by a Roush Industries or one of their subcontractors.

[WDCreech]

TA Bob, will it be offered in both tall deck and standard deck?

[crossbreed455]

Now Kauffman is a dealer for the IA II blocks? http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

[FantomPoncho]

I would definately go with an aluminum block over the $100 stock block. Why?? Because it's repairable. An explosion would not be nearly as expensive. I suppose if I were to put them in order of priority, it would be:

1. Aluminum Block
2. Stock Block
3. IA2

[Brian Baker]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FantomPoncho:
I would definately go with an aluminum block over the $100 stock block. Why?? Because it's repairable. An explosion would not be nearly as expensive. I suppose if I were to put them in order of priority, it would be:

1. Aluminum Block
2. Stock Block
3. IA2 <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're speaking for a blown nitro' application, correct?

[PONTIAC DUDE]

Oh I have seen aluminum V-8 blocks that have been un-repairable after an explosion. http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[sdbob]

That's good news.Thanks to the dedicated. I talked to you Bob on the Ohio Turnpike,stopped for gas with my Blue SD.After Tri-Power weekend.Good luck.

[Robert C.]

SDBoB, Yes I do remember you. Thanks, It's nice to meet new pontiac people.

[FantomPoncho]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Brian Baker:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FantomPoncho:
I would definately go with an aluminum block over the $100 stock block. Why?? Because it's repairable. An explosion would not be nearly as expensive. I suppose if I were to put them in order of priority, it would be:

1. Aluminum Block
2. Stock Block
3. IA2 <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're speaking for a blown nitro' application, correct? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup, sorry for not specifying. Of course, in a street/strip application I would simply reverse #1 and #2. An aluminum block would be great for a street car, but only if money was no object. Of course we could say the same about a lot of things!

[PONTIAC DUDE]

I just wish the aluminum block was made with a higher deck height to get a better rod ratio with longer stroke cranks. Besides, this isn't a normal..... put it in most stock chassis cars anyway.
But something is better then nothing. Would Love to build a ATI Procharged 572 cu.in. Pontiac Street engine. http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

[Lloyd-TX]

What great news!

It's really good to see the Butler family, with their stellar reputation and marketing prowess become involved with AllPontiac. Avoids a lot of duplication of effort and gets it to market much quicker and hopefully with fewer teething problems and maybe even a better price.

Congrats!

[tom s]

Ok,I already have 2 pontiac alu blocks so I guess I can start this conversation off without too much trouble.
Why do the really high HP natural asperated engines like in Nascar and Prostock run iron blocks.I know the top fuel and funnycars run them for the expansion of running on the ragged edge of hydrolic in the cycs and easy repair.I have read that the iron block will make more HP than a alu block,all things being equal.If that is the case,except for weight,what is the advantage of alu?Tom

[Ray Cox]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tom s:
Ok,I already have 2 pontiac alu blocks so I guess I can start this conversation off without too much trouble.
Why do the really high HP natural asperated engines like in Nascar and Prostock run iron blocks.I know the top fuel and funnycars run them for the expansion of running on the ragged edge of hydrolic in the cycs and easy repair.I have read that the iron block will make more HP than a alu block,all things being equal.If that is the case,except for weight,what is the advantage of alu?Tom <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Tom weight and repair ability are the advantages, loss of Hp is the Disadvantage.

[Brian Baker]

Has anyone ever proven this "loss of HP" on a dyno? I realize that any heat that is not converted into motion in the engine (ie - combustion heat escaping out the exhaust, into the block/heads, and into the cooling system) is heat that is wasted, but does the quicker rate of heat dissipation of the aluminum really sap horsepower? Is it just a matter that the iron taking longer to heat up and longer to cool down that it is "redirecting" that heat back into the cylinder where it can do the most work?

[ventura7211]

Fuel cars cannot run a cast block, so that leaves billets and forgings. Is there a block offered that is either billet or forged that is not in aluminum? Just curious.

[rumair]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ventura7211:
Fuel cars cannot run a cast block <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

whaddya wanna bet that steve would give it a try with one of his blocks and 85% nitro? http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Ron]

I won't bet with you! LOL!!! http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Brian Baker]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rumair:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ventura7211:
Fuel cars cannot run a cast block <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

whaddya wanna bet that steve would give it a try with one of his blocks and 85% nitro? http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Steve is running in a different class...a nostalgia class that is built around an entirely seperate, yet specific set of rules, from the current NHRA/IHRA Top Fuel and Funny Car classes.

Steve is also allowed to run more than 85%, I believe.

[ventura7211]

Not in Top fuel or Funny car, as it wont get past tech. I was refering to pro catagories as Tom was above.

[rumair]

i know that nostalgia dragster is entirely different TF and TAD.

what i meant was that i'm pretty sure steve would like to (and hopefully will) push an iron block to it's limits with the injected, nitro burning setup strapped to his FED. it is also my hope to be able to witness either steve or paul spotts go down the track in the next couple of years.

[tom s]

Brian,I know I read where the prostock guys HAVE proven more HP with the iron.Maybe Tom Vaught can add something to the deal.Tom

[Ray Cox]

Brian you could call Bishoff , DLS, Fast times Musi, anyone that builds big Hp motors and dynos them regularly, its a known fact they dont make the power. they dont seal up as well for compression. even valve train tollerances are different

[Tom Vaught]

Have to agree with Ray and Tom about the Aluminum blocks pulling SOME heat out of the final equation, but how much is relative.

The Pro Stock guys are after every HP. The fuel guys actually have other issues besides raw HP.

For the Pontiac discussion, Ford Cobra engines have been made out of aluminum for years and make decent power, seal up ok, and have few warranty issues. Once you start pushing one, a lot of people (like Colletti) will tell magazines that the block needs to be iron. The 2003 blower Cobra was iron because of Colletti's opinion. The 2003 Cobra makes 390 HP.

The question, then, is why is the GT engine (500+ hp) made out of
aluminum which Colletti says is not good enough for the 390 hp requirement?

Have not heard a good answer out of the SVT boys on that one yet.

If you absolutely think you need an aluminum engine for a given class like
Pro Street or Outlaw Street then go for the aluminum piece as traction will
be better with less weight on the front of the car. Also easier to put the
extra weight you have to carry somewhere else more advantageous.

If you are not running Pro Street then the regular IA-2 block would allow
a larger engine, would still allow you to go 209 mph like John Walter's (oops!) John Welter's car did and there would be more there as Rodney was
intentionally slow off the line.

Just make sure you have the safety stuff so you don't follow Radney's habit
of running off every track he runs at! LOL!

JMO!

Tom V.

[Ray Cox]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tom Vaught:
Have to agree with Ray and Tom about the Aluminum blocks pulling SOME heat out of the final equation, but how much is relative.

The Pro Stock guys are after every HP. The fuel guys actually have other issues besides raw HP.

For the Pontiac discussion, Ford Cobra engines have been made out of aluminum for years and make decent power, seal up ok, and have few warranty issues. Once you start pushing one, a lot of people (like Colletti) will tell magazines that the block needs to be iron. The 2003 blower Cobra was iron because of Colletti's opinion. The 2003 Cobra makes 390 HP.

The question, then, is why is the GT engine (500+ hp) made out of
aluminum which Colletti says is not good enough for the 390 hp requirement?

Have not heard a good answer out of the SVT boys on that one yet.

If you absolutely think you need an aluminum engine for a given class like
Pro Street or Outlaw Street then go for the aluminum piece as traction will
be better with less weight on the front of the car. Also easier to put the
extra weight you have to carry somewhere else more advantageous.

If you are not running Pro Street then the regular IA-2 block would allow
a larger engine, would still allow you to go 209 mph like John Walter's (oops!) John Welter's car did and there would be more there as Rodney was
intentionally slow off the line.

Just make sure you have the safety stuff so you don't follow Radney's habit
of running off every track he runs at! LOL!

JMO!

Tom V. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Tom Ill bet theres a new net on those wheelie bars now!

[Tom Vaught]

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha !

I heard John Waulter, when he changes out the sheet metal for a proper tire is going to put a pair of Launcher tubes in the car too, for the DUAL CHUTES!

John Welter is a great guy. At some point he will be driving the car and needs all of that stuff sorted out when he takes over the wheel.

You can make suggestions about safety stuff but most people just blow it off until they, or one of their friends, has a bad ride.

I saw in the October issue 2004 of Fastest Street Car magazine that Arnie's car was being rebuilt.

Quote:

"As .. Beswick was nearing the end of the track a small fire began under the driver's area of his car and went unnoticed. The fire then burned through a fuel line and in second the car was engulfed in flames"

When was the last time a fire burned through a Steel Aeroquip line or steel fuel fuel line in your memory? Makes you wonder HUH?

Steel fuel lines for me with steel aeroquip flex hose where flexible hose is necessary. To easy for aluminum line to be damaged in my opinion for the
little weight benefit.

JMO.

Tom V.