Over Porting, IS too much flow a concern? Buying KRE D's

[Beebe]

HEy Guys, Im currently in the market for the KRE D ports.

At the moment my train of thought is to buy the most ported heads as I can afford. And later change the cam and other parts as $$ comes in.

Would the 310 CFM CNC ported be too much for my combo. What would be the outcome of having too much flow?

I currently run a 455 w/ 76cc #62's (gasget matched and cleaned up flashing), RPM Intake, Ultradyne 288/296 Hyd cam, 2500 stall, Pullin my 3625 lbs. race weight 12.3's @ 107 mph , 1.75 60 ft times.

[Beebe]

HEy Guys, Im currently in the market for the KRE D ports.

At the moment my train of thought is to buy the most ported heads as I can afford. And later change the cam and other parts as $$ comes in.

Would the 310 CFM CNC ported be too much for my combo. What would be the outcome of having too much flow?

I currently run a 455 w/ 76cc #62's (gasget matched and cleaned up flashing), RPM Intake, Ultradyne 288/296 Hyd cam, 2500 stall, Pullin my 3625 lbs. race weight 12.3's @ 107 mph , 1.75 60 ft times.

[rumair]

i'm not an expert, but i'd at least think about changing to a solid cam (maybe even a hydraulic roller) and a different converter at the same time. your power band is going to be way different with the aluminum heads than it is with the 62's.

if you're already running 12.3's i bet you'd see mid 11's with those heads, a new cam and converter, although traction might get to be a problem at some point. http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Jim Hand]

BEEBEE,
Having too much airflow is not a problem. Making the ports too large in order to get the big airflow can be a serious problem!

Size/volume of ports is very important on a moderate RPM engine. And my extensive testing by switching heads and no other parts clearly shows that port volume is as important as peak flow. Big ports cause a very distinct loss of low end power, and depending on the total makeup of your car, running gear, and engine size/RPM, the higher peak power developed as a result of big airflow may not offset the loss of low end power.

And moderate RPM engines don't use nor need 315 cfm flow. In fact, several guys on this board are running well into lower 10's with D ports flowing around 265-270.

Floyd Hand ran a series of 11.50's at 3750# and 3.42 gears through a full exhaust system at the Pontiac Southern Nationals in May - he is using 7K3 heads that flow only 247 peak! So be realistic in selecting heads and airflow values.

Jim Hand

Jim Hand

[jm68fb]

beebe

i earn my living as a head porter. jim is 100% correct about port size being most important, although a large port with a short duration cam can work very well.

but big flow numbers are not a must to run moderately fast. i ran 406 cid. with a head that flowed 238 cfm with minor port work and 247 @ .050 cam, 10.75 comp. and shifted at 6100.
my car ran 11.07 @ 122 mph 3250 lbs race weight.

[jm68fb]

beebe

sorry, forgot to talk about the heads you want to buy. i have ported these heads and they are not capable of being to large for your application. with any new head there can be problems with in the casting, so for your own good check with other people that have run these heads to see if they have had any problems. (I was not impressed with the wall thickness of some areas in the ports). if there are no problems, the head your speaking of should work great.

[Brian Baker]

Gasget? http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[Beebe]

First let me say thanks for the input guys..

My over all LONG TERM goal is shooting for high 10's with streetable manors and pump gas. Like I said Long term (I know I would have make other mods to achieve this)

Would the Out of the Box KRE D's (260-270 cfm) be capable of producing the power to move 3600 lbs high 10's ? OR .. would it be a good idea to step up to the ported versions while I can afford them?

I just want to make To be sure my purchase now will be capable of producing enuff power for my long term goal.

Thanks guys

[rumair]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Beebe:
Would the Out of the Box KRE D's (260-270 cfm) be capable of producing the power to move 3600 lbs high 10's <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

at your weight, a low 1.6 or high 1.5 60 ft. time will be required to run in the 10's.

what are your cam specs...duration at .050 and lift with the rocker you are using?

[John Bailey (GTOKID)]

you want to run 10's??? so why on earth would you buy a Alu head???? Use the heads you have...Just get NUNZI or Brandwine to port them...I went 10.27 @ 127 with a 6x head and a stock rebuild 455 TRW 's cast rods. in a 74 GTO 3555 lbs (and a used super stock roller...LOL) 8 in ATI, 3.90 gear and a 9375 holley....

[rumair]

john- i think he want's to stick with a flat tappet cam...

[Brian Baker]

Yup...I don't see any street driving happening with a "super stock roller", an 8" convertor, and 3.90 gears. Sounds like a solid 1/4 mile bomber though.

[John Bailey (GTOKID)]

to RUN 10's you need NO porting and no roller!!!!

[Chris Petersen]

No porting to run 10's?

In a 1500 LBS car maybe http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

After all, this topic is for a "street car", to get to the 10's some day. I dont see how a car weighing 3600 LBS can get there without porting, unless you got a billon dollers.

JMO

[John Bailey (GTOKID)]

..guys here have done that for YEARS!!!!! just cause you can;t...

[Chris Petersen]

Also Beebe, I am on the same path as you. I am looking at buying the same heads too. But then again, my "street" miles are about 1000 miles a year, give or take 100. I am thinking just getting them as cast, and use a little N2o. To each his own. Are you thinking about a solid flat tappet cam, or a hyd?

[Chris Petersen]

Ok, maybe some have, but the average joe? That does not have a machine shop in there garage?

Sorry, didnt mean to offend you, just want to know hows it done to get there my self. Knowldge is power.

[John Bailey (GTOKID)]

everyone here is VERY fast I am one of the slow ones and I have been low 9's...everyone around here is very helpful...and keep getting faster

[Brian Baker]

I can see 10's in a 3600 lb. car with unported round ports. Ain't gonna' happen with d-ports though. And regardless of what anyone says, it isn't easy. If it was, everyone would be doing it.

[Beebe]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Brian Baker:
I can see 10's in a 3600 lb. car with unported round ports. Ain't gonna' happen with d-ports though. And regardless of what anyone says, it isn't easy. If it was, everyone would be doing it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Brian, I see you have moved your 3840 lbs Bird low 10's

I would like to get my 3600 lbs to move 10.5 - 10.9 second Range.

Ported KRE D's should be capable?

[rumair]

beebe- you can get there with ported D's, but not without alot of other changes.

take my car's most recent combination as an example...it ran 6.88 @ 100/10.89 @ 123 weighing a little under 3800 pounds on 29.5x9 slicks.

474 stroker (4.25 eagle crank, 6.8 eagle rods, ross 4.21 pistons), heavily ported 16's with big valves (265 cfm at .600 lift), relatively aggressive roller cam (269/275 at .050, .692 lift with 1.6 rockers), modified holley 850 carb, ported street dominator intake, 9" race converter (flashes to ~4800~), race prepped reverse valve body TH400, ladder bar/coil over suspension and a built 12-bolt with 4.10 gears. my car also has a plastic 5 gallon fuel cell, the battery relocated to the trunk, and no interior except the driver's seat.

brian's car did go low 10's with a setup that i think was pretty similar to mine (he can provide details if he chooses) and a healthy dose of nitrous.

the point i'm trying to make is that you can't just change your heads and cam, then expect to run in the 10's in a 3500+ pound car. what i would do is find out how other people have gotten there, then determine whether you can afford to spend the money to build something that will go that quick more than once.

[John Langer]

I have gone 10.59 @ 125 with #62 d-ports (the ones that baker bought off of me) with a 407 cid motor in a 3500lb stock suspension car using a torker 2 intake and 4150 carb. This was with slapper bars and a m/t et street 28 x 10.5 x 15 tire. The cam was .648/.648, 280/280 @ .050 on a 108. I would drive this car on the street. No NOS. Nothing exotic!

[Beebe]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rumair:
beebe- you can get there with ported D's, but not without alot of other changes.

the point i'm trying to make is that you can't just change your heads and cam, then expect to run in the 10's in a 3500+ pound car. what i would do is find out how other people have gotten there, then determine whether you can afford to spend the money to build something that will go that quick more than once. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


RumAir, First off let me say that the KRE head purchase is 1 part of a long term goal(I do not expect to jump down to 10's just with heads), as I stated in the first few posts.

John- I would keep the #62 but then I would have to install dished pistons( to lower CR), then I would have to port them to perform better. And all that exra $$ = KRE's that have more potential in the long run.

I DO understand that Cast iron D ports ARE capabible of producing enuff power ,

BUT ....How much $$ will I have into them to perform similar?
How heavy will they be ?
How much MORE potential would they have, after mods?

Once again Must run pump gas on a 462.

Thanks for all the input guys , this is getting my juices flowing http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[rumair]

beebe- i had almost 2 grand in my heads including machine and port work, valves, springs, retainers and keepers. my iron heads weighed 53 pounds in a box with some packing material at the UPS store; the e-heads i just got from SD Performance weighed 37 pounds in the box. as far as the potential of the head after modifications, a set of 260 cfm d's will support a bunch of NA horsepower with the right combination of parts, but the pump gas requirement might be an issue.

[Brian Baker]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Beebe:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Brian Baker:
I can see 10's in a 3600 lb. car with unported round ports. Ain't gonna' happen with d-ports though. And regardless of what anyone says, it isn't easy. If it was, everyone would be doing it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Brian, I see you have moved your 3840 lbs Bird low 10's

I would like to get my 3600 lbs to move 10.5 - 10.9 second Range.

Ported KRE D's should be capable? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I ran ported d-ports with a roller. The same heads and intake that I bought from Langer mentioned in a previous post. I ran a different cam however.

The best it ever ran on the motor was 11.40 @ 120. It would run 10.20's-10.30' on a 200 shot of n2o. The 10.12 was on a 250 shot.

I also ran a tight convertor with 3.73 gears. With a looser convertor and more gearing it may have ran 11.20's or better on the motor, but I built it to run on nitrous.

[gearbanger]

There you go Bebe, instead of spending all that dough on heads, you could probably go into the 10's with a shot of N2O. Won't change you street manners at all and you can rig it to basically operate on its own(i.e. MSD controls that will retard the timing and activate the solenoids via rpm switches.) You can also get a remote bottle valve to open the bottle on the fly, in case you need to smoke someone off a stop light. Depending on the times that you are running now, an extra 100-150 hp will go a long way!

[Beebe]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gearbanger:
There you go Bebe, instead of spending all that dough on heads, you could probably go into the 10's with a shot of N2O. Won't change you street manners at all and you can rig it to basically operate on its own(i.e. MSD controls that will retard the timing and activate the solenoids via rpm switches.) You can also get a remote bottle valve to open the bottle on the fly, in case you need to smoke someone off a stop light. Depending on the times that you are running now, an extra 100-150 hp will go a long way! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wouldent mind N20 But....

Well, ITs My Current #62's and them not being pump gas friendly with my 462 is the whole reason I considered buying Heads.
\
If I sick with a set of cast D's , grab a set with the correct cc chambers and build them ,I will be @ or around $1900,
**** (keeping my long term goal inmind)for a few $$ more I might as well step up to the KRE's, that have more potential, weigh less, and have a unreal amount of baddassness to themhttp://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I guess at this point I know Im going to buy the KRE D's . My biggest concern is which port sized ones I should purchase? Thanks

[BLANK1]

Beebe,
I talked to Jeff K. a few weeks ago about getting a set of their new heads for my 68 GTO. I asked him what it would take to run 10.80's and he told me I would probably need them to be ported to 320 cfm. This is with no other changes except for changing to 1.65 roller rockers and still using pump gas. Still, 10.80's might be pushing it with my combo. Maybe low 11's would be more realistic. Who knows? Just have to get some and see.
My cars race weight is 3760#'s. The motor is a KRE built 463 with SRP pistons, Crower rods, 9.5 C.R., ported (240+cfm) 6x-4 heads w/Comp Cams 1.52 roller tip rockers, Torker II w/ one inch spacer, 850 Speed Demon, UltraDyne Solid cam:255-268 @ .050, .540-.552 lift, and 112 LSA, and 1 3/4 headers w/ 3" exhaust. TH-400 W/ 3000 stall and 3.73 gears. Has run a best 11.81 @ 113 mph so far on BFG Drag Radials. 1.68 60 ft. I also drive it on the street quite a bit.
The price for the heads was $2700 w/out rockers.
Give KRE a call. Jeff can tell you what you need to know. They are very nice people to deal with.

[PONTIAC DUDE]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by John Langer:
I have gone 10.59 @ 125 with #62 d-ports (the ones that baker bought off of me) with a 407 cid motor in a 3500lb stock suspension car using a torker 2 intake and 4150 carb. This was with slapper bars and a m/t et street 28 x 10.5 x 15 tire. The cam was .648/.648, 280/280 @ .050 on a 108. I would drive this car on the street. No NOS. Nothing exotic! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That was this past year wasn't it John?

Looking at your times on Pro Hot Rod circuit. http://pysales.com/images/boxing.gif http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Brian Baker]

Had to be more than 2 seasons ago, Ken...I've owned these heads from John for 2 years now, maybe a little longer. Bud Lyons just bought them.

[PONTIAC DUDE]

http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Hello Earth to Brian. http://pysales.com/images/boxing.gif

[crossbreed455]

i went 10.78 on my 465. It has 87cc heads with no port work(e-heads)and a .630 lift soild. it runs on 93 octane but i like the smell of race gas so thats all it gets. same motor with 28nit, 26 fuel jet went 9.92.

mike m.

[Steve C.]

My .02- If your budjet permits now I'd seriously look at the "310" CFM version of the head.
From what I understand the runner volume isn't so big you will automaticly turn into a blvd DOG. You will have plenty of torque to deal with.
But then how long is 'long term' goals, knowing that later on your going to be looking at a looser converter and more cam for your 10-sec goals.

(when the time comes call Kris at Continental. He makes a very nice custom 10-inch converter that will see street duty and yet will run in the 10's)

[Brian Baker]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PONTIAC DUDE:
http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Hello Earth to Brian. http://pysales.com/images/boxing.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK, Mongo get it now.

Ken doing some ***** stirring.

Mongo shut up now. http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[PONTIAC DUDE]

http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[russ467]

My car ran 7.14 1/8th mile on pump gas when I drove it on the street. It was a bone stock 455 60 over with my ported 197s, cast pistons and rods. I had a 750 bill mitchell carb with annular boosters on a dominator warrior, small solid cam, and 3.90 gears.
Trust us, it can be done cheap. Use the money for the Kre heads and spend it in other needed areas(RODS!!!).
But I think you have already made your mind up.

[Beebe]

Well @ the Moment im running 12.3's w/ 1.7 60ft @107mph , 3625 lbs W/ ME

455 .30 over , 76cc #62's portmatched, UD 288/296 hyd., HS 1.65 IN, HS 1.5 EX, Performer RPM, Holley 750,
TCI 2200 stall, th350, 12 bolt 3:73's, 275/50/15 BFG Drag radials
CE frame conn, CE j-bolt bars, CE Drag Shocks
batt. in trunk

With the slight loss in compression going from 76cc to 85cc, but keeping the Improved flow, Quench and weight savings in mind.

HOW MUCH REAL improvment would I pick up by just bolting the KRE's on ?

And Speaking of real, I would be satisfied for real low 11's and keeping 100% streetability.

[John Bailey (GTOKID)]

I just sold a set of ported 16's that were matched to stock gasket and a very small port...BUT flowed 270 (Brandwine), milled to 64cc's guessing other heads were 72ish..To the guy has Neal Owens Old 92 F-bird and car is about 3300 lbs Car has a TRW pistion .30 over 455 unported 16's with a good size solid(big to you guys) and a Victor, 1050 holley,4.10 gears and a 8 in. car had run a best time of a 10.87(with this combo) but mostly ran 11.20's only change was heads car now runs 10.30's at 129mph. ITS ALL IN WHO dose the work!!!!

[John Langer]

i know a certain PA racer that has been in the 8's on motor more then ONCE and didn't burn it up doing it

[gearbanger]

There is a test on HPP magazine website with Cliff R testing his ported 6x's against the KRE D's straight up. The KRE D's gave about 50 more ft-lbs and about 30-35 hp if I remember correctly. It was on a bored 455 I think. Get on the website and check it out.

[PONTIAC DUDE]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by John Langer:
i know a certain PA racer that has been in the 8's on motor more then ONCE and didn't burn it up doing it <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Must not be talking about me. http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

I only burn't one motor up (6 pistons) in 10 years. And that was at Butler's in 2001 or 2000.

Hooked up the second stage there and got talking to people and forgot to put in a second stage retard chip. http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

But made The Pontiac Nationals 2 weeks later in Texas. http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

So who's burning down all these engine's John? Inquring minds want to know. http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Let's see.......

Ray vs. George

Jeff vs. Brian

John vs. Ken ?????????

[John Langer]

after you made your ONLY 8 second pass at orlando, how come you couldn't make the first round call??

[PONTIAC DUDE]

Huh ???????????????? http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

I made first call. Ran that Dickhead in a 3rd gen blue Camaro Scott Hester that hung me in the first staging beam before he even did his burnout. Then proceeded to do a 1/4 track gimic and then take forever after he backed up. Found out that's part of his game playing.
Burnt once, but not twice. http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Then proceeded to blow the itres off as I stepped up the timer and the trck wasn't there. Third Saturday session got rained out so we only had 2 sessions to qualify. Was #12 after first pass. Tried something for second round qualifying and it didn't work. But not bad for only the 6th pass with that motor and tranny combo. I'm not complaining about what it did in a short time. Plus had to leave off the footbrake as my Tranny break wasn't wired into the Nitrous system for WFO takeoffs.

Took 2004 off to do R & D with Centrifigul Superchargers.

But Stay tuned for 2005. http://pysales.com/images/boxing.gif http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Hot Rod]

Brian,
You know what my TA weighs and Ken only lightly touched my e-heads and I run a small solid roller and it's a high 10 second car and It's run on the street as well 8" converter....

Rodney

[Brian Baker]

Yup...Rodney's car is quieter and runs harder now on pump gas than it did before on race gas.