Cam degree confuzioneing

[DiamondJim]

OK, I'm tired so maybe thats the problem, but I need some advise. Finally got around to degreeing my new cam. Cam has 4 degree advance ground in, installed at 106 degrees. Checked 3 times, came in at 100 degrees all 3 times. Remembered seeing extra keyways on crank key. One was labeled 0, one was labeled A, one was labeled R. Between A and R it states "2 degrees". I tried the "A" slot first, cam went to 96 degress, then tried the "R" key, cam came in at 103. Does this sound backasswards? I have checked this thing so many times I have just about worn the numbers off the degree wheel!!-LOL. Should I just leave the cam at 103 degrees or should I get offset cam keys or another timing set or what? I think this is a Cloyes double roller set if memory serves. All help is appreciated. -Jim

[DiamondJim]

OK, I'm tired so maybe thats the problem, but I need some advise. Finally got around to degreeing my new cam. Cam has 4 degree advance ground in, installed at 106 degrees. Checked 3 times, came in at 100 degrees all 3 times. Remembered seeing extra keyways on crank key. One was labeled 0, one was labeled A, one was labeled R. Between A and R it states "2 degrees". I tried the "A" slot first, cam went to 96 degress, then tried the "R" key, cam came in at 103. Does this sound backasswards? I have checked this thing so many times I have just about worn the numbers off the degree wheel!!-LOL. Should I just leave the cam at 103 degrees or should I get offset cam keys or another timing set or what? I think this is a Cloyes double roller set if memory serves. All help is appreciated. -Jim

[455firebird1969]

Jim,

I did mine last night, so I hear what you are saying about the numbers being worn off the wheel. Your numbers are moving in the right direction, but they are skewed. This process can be confusing if you do not do it frequently, do not be discouraged.

Are your TDC settings dead balls accurate? After your wheel and pointer are set for TDC, don't bump it, it only takes a little bend on the pointer to skew the numbers.

Is your wheel attached to the crank with no chance of slippage?

I did mine several times last night, after I got it where I wanted it, I removed the wheel, pointer and dial indicator, put a bag over my engine block and called it a night.

I am going to put all the measuring equipment back on tonight and verify my work.

I suggest you walk away from it and do it again later, you may have made a minor error that will be obvious tomorrow.

[Old Man Taylor]

Everything you wrote sounds correct. I recently installed a cam that had to be moved 8 cam degrees to get it to the right spot.

[Old Man Taylor]

I forgot to mention that the hot setup is to get the crank gears that have 8 or 9 keyway slots. You can move the timing in 2 cam degree increments. Otherwise you will have to install an offset cam key. I bought my last set from Ken "Ace" Brewer at PPR.

[firechickenman]

Jim-

FWIW, when I installed my new cam and Rollmaster timing set last spring, it came in at 112 deg. at the 0 position (should have been 106). Sooooo, I figured reinstall it to the 6 deg. advance position to get the 106 I was after (pretty simple, huh?). Nope, it came in at 103 that time!! I ended up with it at 105.5 deg. in the 4 deg. advance slot.

The moral of my story? Don't trust the cam and/or gears to have the keyways cut in exactly the right place. Trust your cam-degreeing ability (double and triple checking helps http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ).
Try it tomorrow with a clear mind.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I tried the "A" slot first, cam went to 96 degress, then tried the "R" key, cam came in at 103. Does this sound backasswards? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That sounds right to me. When you advance a cam, the intake C/L number will get smaller since it is measured in crankshaft degrees AFTER TDC. Yes, I'd try to get it to 106. Good luck!!

[DiamondJim]

Hey 455FB69, Last time I used a piston stop. This time to find TDC I used a Dial indicater bolted to the head. I know I have TDC. I have my degree wheel mounted with a neat socket that Comp cams sells, it slips on the end of the crank and is held in place with an allen screw, it has a hole for a 1/2" rachet to fit in the end, workks real well. I could be off 1 degree or so in either direction, but I am pretty sure of my numbers. What I can't figure out is why is the crank socket marked O(zero), A(advance) and R(retard), with a note that says "2 Degrees" and yet when I used the "A" to advance the cam, it retarded the cam instead? Maybe I am thinking backwards. Anyway, I thought that 2 degrees on the crank would only be 1 in cam degrees, yet it moved it(the cam) 3 degrees???? At any rate, when I used the "R" keyway/dot it moved the cam from 100 to 103 degrees. What I am not sure of is if I am going to leave it there or get offset keys or another timing set? Oh well, I am going to sleep on it, maybe I will figure it out after some rest. Thanks-Jim

[DiamondJim]

WOW, 4 people posted before I could type my answer to 1! Thanks- I appreciate everyones help, Goodnight.-Jim

[screamingchief]

I also had hard time getting consistnt results with the pieces that came with the degree kit ,I had to go out and buy good dial ind. extensions and tips etc. and fashioned a solid checking lifter out of an old hyd. lifter shell, made a huge difference in repeatability. P.S. I was doing this one with the heads on, alot easier with heads off!

[screamingchief]

blast it now I'm confuzed,everytime I get into this it happens,math never was my strong suit. http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gifBelive my previous post incorrect cam is 1/2 crank I even contradicted myself,(so whats new).lost most of my reference material on this in a fire(don't ask)including the cam cards for 3 cams, at least crower has online specs(even my custom solid),don't have an answer about why gear mismarked but recall dan whitmore telling my friend about something like that when my friend was degreeing his cam.

[455firebird1969]

Mine just rechecked @ 105, my cam card calls for 106. I am going to run it at 105, since my gearset only makes 2 degree changes.

Crank and Cam are done, gonna install the other seven rods and pistons tomorrow...

[AG]

I place the two timing cover studs on and a smooth piece of plywood that is drilled to slide over the studs. Now the plywood can be slid right up to the timing wheel and you just mark TDC with a pen and you don't have to use the coathanger indicater that wobbles all over the place.

[DiamondJim]

Thanks everyone. I was thinking wrong , advancing should make the number smaller. The 2 degrees stamped on the crank gear must mean 2 CAMSHAFT degrees. What does everyone think the effect of leaving the cam at 103 would be? It was ground 4 degrees advanced at 106, so it will now be 7 degrees advanced, guess I would lose so upper power, gain lower? I checked the intake closing at .050 also. It has moved from 49.5 as stated on the cam card to 46. I know this will lower DCR a little. I was worried about being a little high in that area(8.6), maybe this is a good thing. Oh well, lots to think about. By the way, if I decide to correct it to 106, where can I get the offset keys or the gears with extra keyways? What would be best? Thanks-Jim

[Old Man Taylor]

I would use a 2 degree cam offset key and get it back to 107 - ASSUMING that it is a 110 LSA. MOPAR offset keys are the same as Pontiac.

[DiamondJim]

OMT, It is a 110LSA, 106 ICL gives 4 degrees advance. Where can I get the offset keys? I am at 103 now, do they make a 4 degree key or will 105 be close enough? Thanks for everyones help. -Jim

[DiamondJim]

Am I looking for offset cam keys or crank keys?? Thanks-Jim

[WDCreech]

You can get a set of 5 Mopar offset cam keys from PAW. They range fom 1 through 5 degrees. About six years ago, they were 21.95/set. PAW's part #MPP-P4286500. I just looked in Summit and they currently sell the same kit for 31.95. Part # DCC-4286500.

[Old Man Taylor]

A 2 degree offset cam key will move you from 103 to 107. If it were mine I would set it up at 107 as your cam isn't that big.

[DiamondJim]

OK,I believe I've finally got it through my thick skull-LOL. I was so tired looking at numbers last night I could not think clearly. When OMT said use the 2 degree cam key to move the cam 4 degrees the lights finally came on http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif. That is why the 2 degrees stamped on the crank moved the degree wheel 4 degrees, it was 2 degrees cam! 2 degrees cam = 4 degrees crank. Thanks to WD, OMT and everyone else! -Jim

[buwalda]

Just to clarify on the Mopar cam keys. You need the offset cam key kit for the small block Mopar. The big block Mopar also has a kit, but it uses bushes, not keys.

[johnta1]

And to clarify Geoff even more,I think Mopar calls them 'crank' keys,we use them on the cam. (same size)

[Paul Spotts]

Jim

every so often I get a cam that kicks my ass.

just degreed a hyd roller that called for 106 - straight up was 108 - moved the lower gear 4 degrees crank (2 cam) and it advanced it to 104! The timing chain gears are seldom right on - sometimes straight up they are good and it is the cam.

here is a proceedure I do that makes things go quicker

After I check piston to deck height with dial indicator on a bridge, I'll install timing chain and gears dot to dot, install degree wheel with wire at TDC and lifter dial indicator tool.
The wire is nice in that you can move the wire to fine tune instead of moving the wheel.

After I have all that installed, I'll turn the crank so the piston is down in the hole. Then install the piston stop and double check TDC it is usually dead on.

Before I pull off the wheel/socket to adjust timing set, I'll set the wheel at TDC, that way the wire can be bumped and put back to TDC when the wheel/socket is back on the crank.

The lower and upper gears should be dry fit before the crank and cam are installed to allow easy removal and install of components

[Paul Spotts]

here is a piston stop I made that only fits Pontiacs - the chrome piece that touches the piston is a chrome lug nut - never scratches the piston

[Paul Spotts]

first try was 59 degrees at .050 for top of #1 intake lobe. the other side of lobe at .050 was 157 degrees

59 + 157 = 216 X 1/2 (divided by 2) = 108

hope this helps some

[Paul Spotts]

by the way this hyd roller 455 is getting ported 6X heads, cast iron intake with Q jet backed by a tremac 5 speed in a 67 Lemans convert - cool sleeper.

[buwalda]

The info I posted on Dec 2 was CORRECT. Mopar 'offset cam key set', # P4286500. Contains five offset cam keys: 1,2,3,4,5 degree offset [ cam degrees ].

[DiamondJim]

Paul, thanks for the info. The rounded head of the lug nut for piston stop is a great idea. I put a nice nick in my Speedpros several years ago. This time with the SRP's I did not want to take any chances so I just swung the dial indicator around and used it to locate TDC(I have it bolted to the block in a head bolt hole). By the way, FWIW, the piston stop that Summit sells will not let you bolt it to a Pontiac head, the holes are not far enough apart http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif, my suggestion is to make your own out of angle or, unistrut or whatever(and use a lug nut stop http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif). Geoff, I ordered the Mopar key set, thanks. The 2 degree should put me close. Have a nice day.-Jim

[lugnutt]

I was thinking, I degree motorcycle cams all of the time. Same princible but there are two cams http://pysales.com/images/sweat.gif Here is my question. In motorcycle cam degreeing, you pretty much dont use the mark stamped on the gears. So, in this case. What would happen if you just moved the chain on the cam gear one tooth? How many degrees would that change it? Maybe if you mess with the gears enough you could split the 1 degree.
I don't know if this is at all possible, but just an idea. I am sure someone has tried it, just wondering the outcome. http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

[DiamondJim]

Lug, the cam gear has 42 teeth, that makes each tooth about 9 degrees camshaft which would be about 18 crankshaft degrees. Put the 2 degree key in today, came out to 106.5 ICL, was looking for 106 so this is about as close as I will be able to get. Thanks for everyones help. http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif -Jim