Buick GN 3.8L turbo in 1st gen Firebird

[cscottfergus]

Has anyone installed or know of someone who has installed a grand national motor in a first generation firebird? It was just an idea I had.

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"If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles.
If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat.
If you know neither the enemy nor yourself,you will
succumb in every battle."
Sun Tzu

[cscottfergus]

Has anyone installed or know of someone who has installed a grand national motor in a first generation firebird? It was just an idea I had.

---------------------------
"If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles.
If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat.
If you know neither the enemy nor yourself,you will
succumb in every battle."
Sun Tzu

[mike nixon]

the 2 things that i see that would be the most difficult are:

engine mounts, the pontiac uses flat mounts to keep the height lower for hood clearance. the buick mounts will gain a couple of inches in this area so you'd need to fab a set. the turbo will affect hood clearance also depending on what yr engine you use.


wiring, you'll need to upgrade the harness inside the car substantially to support the electrical needs of the turbo engine.


it'd be a neat project done , but with the supply of traditional engines stil out there and the new products being introduced, why go thru all the trouble?

mike

[cscottfergus]

Thanks for the advice.

I haven't checked weights yet but figured it would take some weight off the front end.

I had a chance to ride in a 10 second GN before and it was impressive.

Also considering a twin turbo Pontiac 455? Just ideas, that is why I am posting to get informed opinions.

Thanks again.

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1967 Firebird 400 conv, 1989 Formula 350

[Goatman]

Buddy of mine did the TTA swap into his 67' Chevelle.

Wasn't all that bad, but he had a bit more room to deal with than you will. Wiring harnesses should be a fairly common piece, even if you had to get one from Painless or something.

I'm like heaven, everybody wanna get to me.........

[cscottfergus]

Thanks for response.

Guess I should make some measurements to see if it will fit under hood.

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1967 Firebird 400 conv, 1989 Formula 350

[ARAMP1]

I've been thinking about putting one in my 68 GTO convertible. Here's the catch though, I want to mate it to a T56 6 speed, not the 200R4. I'm still working out the details for this.

[Goatman]

The Chevy to BOP adapter is a common piece. Shouldn't be any farther away than a call to Jegs....

I'm like heaven, everybody wanna get to me.........

[Donovan]

I don't mean to dampen the mood, but the Turbo 6 WILL perform better with the 200 4r. You put a stick behind it and you'll find turbo lag and much reduced performance. The GN community has tried it all, and this is no exception. If you go to their boards and read up, you'll see the experiences they have had.

In fact, unless you have a turbo matched to be used in front of a stick this is true. Not just for the Buick V6 but any turbo application. If you're willing to spend a bit extra on a faster spooling turbo, then have at it. sounds like fun either way! http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[ARAMP1]

Looks like I'll just have to keep my revs up in the boost range when needed. Seriously, it's a daily driver and I just want to row the gears myself. Just thought it'd be cool.

[cscottfergus]

do yourself a favor and talk to some of the best buick guys before you use a stick shift. GM only offered a automatic behind them for a reason.

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1967 Firebird 400 conv, 1989 Formula 350

[andrewb70]

Plenty of high power import turbos use a manual transmissions. I really don't see why it would not work behind a GN Turbo. Sure an automatic might ultimately give you better performance at the drag strip, but a manual can't be THAT bad.

Andrew

Project GatTagO (http://groups.msn.com/projectgattago)

[ARAMP1]

Gotta agree with, Gattago http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I'm not looking for dragstrip consistancy, I'm looking for having a great driving experience every time I get in my goat. I'm thinking a T56 would fit the bill for that.

[cscottfergus]

It may work fine. I have no experience with manuals and turbos. I wasn't shooting it down just saying talk to the buick crowd to see what to expect. I think GM avoided it because of timing spool-up and shifting.

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1967 Firebird 400 conv T400 3.08, 1989 Formula 350 700r4 3.27

[Donovan]

Guys, I'm not sure how else to word it. Please let me say that I think this could be a great project, but you need to consider these things.

The difference in performance was significant. It's a fact and not just my opinion. Without boost the Buick engine is just a 6 cylinder 231. When you lag you are off boost. There is no doubt the car would run and drive. We aren't talking drag strip performance only! We are talking safe consistent drivability. The Buick setup is not comparable to a Mitsubishi or a Subaru on a turbo, they are different. It is THAT different Andrew http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif This can be somewhat compared to having the wrong stall converter, see what I mean? We aren't talking 10ths we are talking seconds. Why would you throw that away?

You can do some homework and get a turbo to better match a stick setup, there is no question. But the stock setup straight out of a T-type or GN is not going to be optimized for a manual transmission.
The Buick engine was also not a high revving design, they make power much like a big Pontiac when running right. You would not want to keep the revs up to band aid a lag problem; you would miss a good deal of the power band.

If you just want a turbo 6 under the hood because it will look cool, be different etc, then don't worry about it. But if I was going to the trouble of swapping it in, getting the wiring figured out and tuning it to run well I would not assume a stock turbo will be anything but mis-matched in that application. Most factory turbo cars, import or otherwise, that have the option between a standard and an auto run different turbos from the factory.

Don't take my word for this only, do the research! Do the swap! Come back here and tell us all about it! I'm all for a person enjoying the hobby. My original intention was simply to bring your attention to a very important factor. http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

A very thorough book I can suggest for reading is "Maximum Boost" by Corky Bell. I also understand we have a member on this board who is well versed in Turbo applications, maybe you can get Tom V.'s input?

[ARAMP1]

Thanks for your view TD. I do agree with you about swapping the stock motor (turbo and all) and expecting worse performance. Right now, I'm just in the "kicking around the idea" stage anyway. If I spent the time and money, there would be an optimal turbo, intercooler, throttle body, etc. Kenne Bell would probably know be by name after it would all be said and done. http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif The main reason that I'm thinking about it in the first place is that it's lighter, the car could potentially handle better, fuel effiency and tunability are awesome, and it's something other than your run of the mill small block (or big block) chevy swap...it's something different. How many turbo six swaps have you seen? I'm sure they're out there, however I've only seen a few. Just my opinion, for what it's worth.

[Donovan]

http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[FAPhoenix]

What about a turbo on a Pontiac OHC 6? Its been done, I know I've clicked on the link. Maybe someone can offer information on that.

Tyler

[zbuickman]

td is right http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif clik on the link in my sig and follow my links or web ring. the info will bring you up to speed on the turbo 6.

p.s. how you getten a turbo 3.8, there not easy to come by?

Brent
65 GTO conv
84 T-Type
my cars (http://www.angelfire.com/art2/bdenterprises/)