John Schloe runs 10.60s

[Skip Fix]

Newest National Dragster showed John running a 10.643 in his D/SA (which means its a D port the RAIV was B/SA). Now that's honking!!

[Skip Fix]

Newest National Dragster showed John running a 10.643 in his D/SA (which means its a D port the RAIV was B/SA). Now that's honking!!

[Jack Ferris]

Impressive!! Some of the well known SS/IA Pontiacs are running 10.30's. The current NHRA D/SA record is(or was) 10.89 by a Ford.

[Banditone]

Congrats to JOHN http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif.

[Skip Fix]

Last time I talked to John the 400 with stock rods goes through the traps around 7000! His old RAIV cam was 274 @ 0.050!

[Brian Baker]

I don't think the "D" in "D Stock Automatic" means it has d-ports. It's just a classification based on a horsepower rating, which is factored by NHRA.

[Jack Ferris]

I think what Skip was saying is a RA4 combo in Stock would bump it up to B because of the HP rating. Therefore to run in D he would have to add a bunch more weight to the car if he were running the RA4 heads. Using dports would lessen the horsepower rating and move him down 2 classes with the same weight.

[Skip Fix]

Brian I have spoken to John a couple of times.he even gave me the Comp grind for the NHRA RAIV motor I got a copy of. With the NHRA hp ratings the RAIV motor was in B/SA(running 10.90s 15 years ago!).He hurt one of the RAIV cylinder heads years ago and dropped to D/SA because the NHRA hp rating for the "standard" (like that better than D port?) heads is less for a 69 Firebird. So a drop in class(B to D) because NHRA used wt/"rated" hp to class cars. He proabably could pull weight out and run C/SA or add some and bump down to E/SA, but is running D/SA with D port heads.

Most of the 78 Firebird "stockers" run from J/SA to M/SA depending on weight and which cam they use. A .364 lift lets them go as the 180 hp engine, .406 the 220 hp, which NHRA has its own factor for now. They refactored them last year. Maybe Dave Ribero will chime in here about Pontiac "stockers". Most guys play the game on which class has a soft index(easier to run under with that combo) as they are handicaped of index not class record(why I don't know).

[Brian Baker]

Sorry, SKip. I mistook what you were trying to say in your first statement.

[tom s]

Im pretty sure John Angles told me John was running D ports.Maybe Don Kennedy can confirm.Tom

[Skip Fix]

I'm sure he felt pretty bad hurting one of his RAIV heads. Alot of tricks in assembling those "stocker" motors(Super Stockers also).

The cam he used in the RAIV motor only had 0.030 intake and exhaust clearance when I tried to fit in in my RAIV motor with TRWs. I wasn;t brave enough to try it. When I asked John how he did it he had offset dowels to EXACTLY locate heads on piston reliefs as pistons can't be touched. Alot of guys use Dykes top rings and low tension oil rings in most these engines. Lift is the only thing stock about the cams.

The down side I see is having a motor with all this precision engione work assembled in a clean room and having to tear down in the pits! One event here in Houston there were several stockers with heads off getting checked. And a wind blowing through the pits.

[fsgto]

Shloe`s car is a natural D car.And I quote from the rule book,"Car may move only to top ( lightest end) of original class,or down (heavier)one class."

[Jack Ferris]

But if you install the 722 heads and use the higher lift camshaft and rockers it becomes a B/SA due to factored HP increase.

[sdbob]

Thats great to see aPontiac fly like that. I know waht I did to my SD to try to run stock. So the 'testing program ' he did must really be something. I feel the 400 and 350 have an advantage in stock as they make Hp higher in the rpm range which helps on 9" tires.

[SupergasDil]

I spoke with John at the Winternationals earlier this year. At that point he did have D ports on the engine. And I have to tell you, for an engine with a factory cast iron intake and D port heads, that was one of the meanest sounding Pontiacs I've ever heard.

[fsgto]

The reason I posted that statement out of the rule book was that someone said he could take a bunch of weight out of the car and move up a class.You can`t do that you can only move down a class by adding weight.
Putting RA 4 heads on the motor changes the factor and that`s why it`s a B car and if you added weight could be run as a C car!
Not the other way around.

[Skip Fix]

FSGTO you CAN remove weight IF the car's actual weight is heavier than NHRAs spec. My old 64 power nothing 409 Impala was 200 lbs heavier than IHRA specs. Sometimes the cars border on the class weight/hp factor and just a little legal weight removal can bump you up a class.

[Skip Fix]

The main class change on John's car is changing from 722s to D ports,that's what changes it from a B to a D/SA.

The way the 78s make alot of class changes is by cam lift. Weight allows specific classes but two different HP factors and the only change is cam lift from a "180" hp to a "220" hp.That is what allows them about 4 classes to pick between. I've heard of several guys looking at the class for a 78 with a 350 Pontiac in it due to hp factoring and class index.

[fsgto]

"He proabably could pull weight out and run C/SA" You can remove weight to get to the top of the natural class but you can`t remove weight and go to a higher class.Ain`t gonna happen.My car is a natural F car and I can`t remove weight and make it an E car.You can only go down a class.
As for the whole the cylinder head and cam changes subject that`s like comparing apples and oranges they`re different engine combos and that`s how you can move them from lower classes to higher.

[Skip Fix]

I stand corrected on the staement of going up in class with weight reduction.You are currenlty racing these classes so you are more knowledgeable than i on it.There are different weights for Trans Ams vs Firebirds and models between same body styles that can potentially change classes. Are the GTO specs for your year the same as a Tempest and Lemans?
My old CHevy had different weights for Impala vs Belair vs Biscayne(Biscaynes were lighter hence most of the factory 409 race cars were not Impala SS cars).

The comments about class changes were about John being a B/SA at one time with the RAIVs and now a D/SA with what ever casting he is using for D ports.It was related to the hp factoring. Also you see the same names with 78 cars bumping alot of classes from year to year by the hp change +/- a weight change gives them almost 4 classes to choose from.

The 78 NHRA specs allow both HP motors to run a 89cc head. The 180 hp heads 6X-8s all had closer to 98 and the 220s 6X-4s around 92. Their only requirement change is the cam lift.Both can runn 0.004 out deck height.
NHRA specs are now available on line and you don't have to purchase the spec sheets from them.

[fsgto]

In `68 you couldn`t get a 400 in a Tempest or a Lemans.Some people have told me to put the chrome bumper on my car,I`m sure it`s lighter but I just can`t do it,it just wouldn`t look right.

Anyway you look at it Shloe`s car is hauling butt.I remember seeing a little blurb about him in Hi Performance Pontiac years ago about being the first Pontiac stocker in the 10`s and that was with the RA 4 motor.And now he`s going alot faster than that with the D port heads.

I`m sure it lowered his racing expenses by running the D port motor.

[Skip Fix]

I think Greg at Tri City that makes the special leaf sroings does his machine work, at least he did. That's how I got john's number years ago.
Man any stocker especially Pontiacs are cool to me as fast as they go! Faster than bracket racer with more head,intake and carb options!

[DAVE RIBEIRO]

Hi Skip,
John has a real nice pontiac firebird and it does run fast..He was a B/sa car,
then was helped by the HP pencil at NHRA.
They took off 20-30hp on the D-port heads on that type combo..So you would be crazy not to run that combo weighing 2-300 lbs.less.
The old record holder in D/SA is a 455ci Buick GS,driven/owned Jason Line..Yes,the pro-
stock driver..Records only stand for 2 years,
soon to be 1yr..(5-6) yrs ago went 10.40's,
with 5 foot wheel-stands and no-wheely bars.
77-78 pontiac 400ci,6X heads are 89cc, and
76+79's are 98cc..All decks are now 0..The original 180hp is now 280hp,200hp is 285hp..
You were right on about cams 364/364(280hp)
407/407(285hp)..You can only move up one class by adding Wt. But there can be several models weighing different total weighs..
The total factory wt.+ 170lbs/driver,is divided by factored HP,this give you a class factor..That number tells you what class you can run.You can add 130lbs and move down one class(example if your car is a J/sa,by adding up to 130lbs you can run K/sa)...Pontiacs,do take much more work than chevies,because of lack of parts and numbers of Pontiacs racing..
But that is changing over the last 5-10yrs
What hurt early on was how hard hit the GTO's,
389,400,421,428 pontiacs were refactored so high that no-one would run one..Hope this info
helps,let me know if you have anymore questions?
Yes, Pontiacs Rock but the parts are 3-4times
and are harder to find.. Happy Holidays...
Dave...1033/stock

[Ron]

Dave I thought the 428 got a gift of 70 or so horsepower off.

[Skip Fix]

Those 455 GS stockers always did run fast with big twisting wheel stands.Thanks for the insight from everyone.

[DAVE RIBEIRO]

Hi Ron,

Yah, that combo got 70hp off and Bruce at
Rock Eng..runs that combo.There are Several cars building that engine combo as we speak...So I think they will be flying by mid-year..hope you are doing well and have
a Happy Holidays... Dave..1033/stock