Windage trays

[PROBRD]

Does anyone else have a problem with windage trays cracking? Just about everytime I pull the oilpan off it has a few places where it has cracks. I replace it with another one and the next time it is cracked again. What causes this? How do you keep it from happening? Are there any advantages or diadvantages of not running one? I've heard of people running without one. They run a deep pan and run a quart low on oil. Anyone tried this?

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PROBRD
(probrd1@aol.com)

[PROBRD]

Does anyone else have a problem with windage trays cracking? Just about everytime I pull the oilpan off it has a few places where it has cracks. I replace it with another one and the next time it is cracked again. What causes this? How do you keep it from happening? Are there any advantages or diadvantages of not running one? I've heard of people running without one. They run a deep pan and run a quart low on oil. Anyone tried this?

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PROBRD
(probrd1@aol.com)

[Old Man Taylor]

I have seen this a couple of times. A friend of mine lost a piston and a set of bearings this way. The tray came apart and pieces went everywhere. This was a full windage tray. I now weld straps to each of the stress points, and I weld bars under the attaching bolts. I am more comfortable with the tray than without it. Why does it do this? I am not sure. It might be the engine harmonics, or it could be forces from the oil whipping around. I really don’t know, but the cracking is not that rare.

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Jim

[Tom McQueen]

Mine have cracked as well. Welding and bracing are the only solution. Sorta suggests we could use a good aftermarket windage tray, huh. One that works with the 400, 428 and 455. One that accepts a dipstick. Teflon coated maybe, with lots of drain holes. Must be a dozen available for that corporate motor.

[Skip Fix]

Tom Wihite at one of the Pontiac Southern Natls mentioned he saw it more with his launching on the rev limiter and maybe the stutter and harmonics from it. I've heard more about the full length ones doing this than the 3/4 tray also.

Bought a Moroso when they first came out, only fits 2 bolt mains unless notched and no dipstick tube provision. (need to trial fit my "fix" two holes where the standard non tray tube bolts to main cap to access bolts and a slot to slide that part of the tube through the tray.

[Old Man Taylor]

I believe the shorter tray is actually a little bit thicker. The cracks in the ones I am aware of were in stick shift cars, no trans brake.

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Jim

[roger van doren]

Does anyone think powder coating the windage tray may help stregthin it?
roger

[Todd]

[This message has been edited by Todd (edited 07-18-2000).]

[Big Injun]

Ken Brewer at Pacific Performance has worked with Milodon to develop an aftermarket tray. I have seen it and it is of a heavier gage that will not crack.

However, it does not have a provision for a dip stick tube. It can be modified to use one.

Ken has them in stock at 310-832-4596

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www.PontiacDragDays.com (http://www.PontiacDragDays.com)
Dave "Big Injun" Anderson

[PONTIAC DUDE]

The Milidon pan is not made to bolt to the main caps like the factory unit. It bolts like the aftermarket chevy types, off the mains studs with threaded top section and nuts top & bottom of the tray. They use the Cheby main stud kit. Nice looking pan but requires work & money. Later.

[Triggerman]

Just my opinion, but I feel windage tray cracking must be related to vibrational effects in the bottom end. Cracking in a thin member of this nature is a result of metal fatigue and the metal of a windage tray has no forces exterted on it (to fatigue it) except thru harmonics and vibration. A full length tray has more material to form a lever arm to work against the stress points with, which might explain why they are more likely to have cracking. I suspect any bottom end which is completely balanced will have less of a problem than stock assemblies. I've never cracked one, but I've ran an aftermarket assembly for the last 8 years which is attached into the pan and not to the bottom of the caps (it's also thicker than a stock unit). Precision balancing, thickening the stress points and/or possible heavier aftermarket units is the answer here. Not an item you want to come apart and mingle with the rods at any rpm. Any other thoughts on this? TM

[Paul Spotts]

I had a tray come apart in my old motor
(I hate using the past tense term). I have a factory tray(long)mounted on studs with rubber washers allowing the tray to "give" a little. It never cracked. Many larger race engine friends of mine just do not use the tray. I have heard the trays cracking mostly with higher lift roller cam engines. I have to agree with TM - yet the oil pounding therory may play into the effect. High speed oil pounding the tray could cause vibration or a rocking effect. The factory designed these trays for max RPM's around 5800 - my engine has seen 7000 many times. If I'm not mistaken - the long trays were only on the 400's and the shorter trays on the 428 and 455's. I think the short trays are thicker as well. I sell a lower dip stick tube that has a bracket welded to it for cars not using a windage tray. It mounts to the main cap - not sure if the Milodon pan will allow this to be used. I applaud Milodon and Ken as well for the continuing parts being introduced.

[This message has been edited by Paul Spotts (edited 03-06-2000).]

[WARPed]

Matt, were did you get your pan rail mount windage tray? Is this your own concoction, a one-off of a cheby design, or does/did someone offer this?

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10.854@123.44
6.947@100.65
brooksa@gte.net

[PROBRD]

If I remember right Warrior racing had one called a Ray Tray. I'm not positive because I can't find my old catalogue. Has anyone used one of these? I may give them a call to see what they have. Paul, do you run with or without one?
Thanks for all of the input guys!

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PROBRD
(probrd1@aol.com)

[Todd]

[This message has been edited by Todd (edited 07-18-2000).]

[roger van doren]

on stockers, were exactly have you guy's ( old man and tom)added peices of metal for stregth? i am using the stock one on a 400
roger

[Triggerman]

Warped, it is the Canton pan in Warriors catalog that has the full side kickout. I've been pretty pleased with it's oil management capabilities, I just wish it fit when they sent it to me. Then I really wish it fit when they sent it back to me the second time. At that point I took a torch and modified it to fit. Then it fit! Come by and I will show it to you, I'm getting ready to dis-assemble. TM

[Triggerman]

As an addendum to this line of thinking. There are a few aftermarket manufacturers that you can just purchase a generic tray from. You can then weld tabs into your oil pan for it to mount to and avoid having it connected to the bottom of the caps at all. In the interest of fair reporting Jim H. pitched his view to me of the oil pressure coming off the crank as a possible factor in the cracking. If this does have some effect it would have to be (IMHO) because the fluid is causing the thin material of the tray to "flutter" and fatiguing the metal....at some point resulting in cracks. Thicker material at the mounting points would combat this.

[Ken -Ace- Brewer]

Guys,
I am sorry about the new windage trays not fitting 455's. And the dipstick hole? We just use a inner dipstick tube from a normal windage tray motors. And tack it to the block after the tray has been installed.
We are in the process of building a KILLER oil pan for our pontiacs! It will have a windage tray AND a crankscraper AND trap doors! Just for drag racing!! These pans are being CUSTOM made to my specs! Any suggestions?
Be Cool,

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ACE-P.P.R.

[Tom McQueen]

Ace,
Only suggestion I might have is to have a version of this pan that will work with the new belt drive from BOP. Looking forward to seeing these new pieces. What pan capacity are you considering?

[Triggerman]

Ken, where is our full side kickout? Also would be good to have a couple of different lower profiles to choose from to fit a variety of lowered chassis, but allowing maximum oil capacity. TM

[Old Man Taylor]

Roger - I welded straps at each of the stamped steel openings, where I thought it would be prone to cracking. I also welded a plate across both of the two bolt mounting pads so it wouldn't crack at the bolts. I took pictures of it when I did it, but now I can't find them.

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Jim

[MLS]

I noticed in the PAW catalog they offer a screen type windage tray, maybe this would combat flex which results in cracking. They also claimed it was more efficient than a solid metal tray.

[Maurice Hood]

What is everyone's thoughts and/or experience with the screen type tray from PAW, or anywhere else? Thanks ...Maurice

[This message has been edited by Maurice Hood (edited 03-13-2000).]

[Scott Misus]

Ace:

My only suggestion would be to take a look at the fabulous wet sump pan (designed by Bob Maxey) that Canton offers, copy it, then sell it cheaper.

Just about everybody I've ever talked to that has used a Ray Tray (designed by Mike's brother, Ray Hunt) has reported that the screen came unwelded in pieces from the tray and ended up in the bottom of the oil pan.

[This message has been edited by Scott Misus (edited 03-13-2000).]

[Jerry Brock]

I wasn't going to post on the Ray Tray, but since it was brought up, here it is.
The Ray Tray I had came out in pieces, luckily causing no further damage. The expanded metal broke at the cross points, and pieces ended up in the pan. I thought at the time that it was just my engine, but have found that others have had the same experience.
I use a full stock Pontiac tray now, and have had no problems.

[Tom McQueen]

Ill make it unanimous. The ray tray will self destruct over time. I have also found pieces of mine in the pan.

[MLS]

Jerry, is the stock tray still available through GM, if not, who supplies them? Also, I've seen claims of up to 25 HP gains in certain applications from using a tray vs not. Is this sales hype?

[Jerry Brock]

I bought mine from Warpath in Cleveland, but I have seen a few at swap meets. I had to massage several points to clear the rod bolts on my 455. It has been on the engine for 6 years.
I feel that anytime I can keep the crank out of the oil, it has to help.

[Paul Spotts]

The tray that came apart in my old engine was the Ray Tray as well. Once in changing the oil - small pieces of the screen came out - not a happy oil change. My next motor will not use any tray.
Ace - One suggestion on Milodon pan. I don't like the welded sump or lower pan section. I recieved a pan from them and the welding had slag and then was gold annodized. Could remove gold flakes with my hand - sent the pan back. I just don't like anything welded inside a motor unless its tigged or cleaned up real well - not seen in production parts.

[Skip Fix]

My recent Milodon appeared TIG welded and little to no slag on the inside. Only thing I didn't like was the mid year 3 prong rear pan gasket. I wish they would convert to the later 5 prong ones to hold in place better. Might get the welder and Dremel tool to convert the next one.

Skip

[KEN CROCIE]

The full length trays do tend to crack in race type engines.
we reinforced them at the thin points at the louvers to reduce this tendancy.OMT was correct in his assumption that the 4/5 tray is thicker.the full length is.040" and the 4/5 is .050".Most 4/5 trays are spaced for the 455 crank(thicker pad).Our Super Comp Fiat once slowed down during eliminations and no attempts at re tuning would bring it back.
After pulling the Pan(post race)we found the tray-broken off -at the bottom of the pan.it cost us about 2 tenths and the race.REplaced the tray and the 2 tenths came back.
we also experimented with mesh trays on the 74 S/S T/A.Total disaster!in about 5 runs we started to get a rod knock!
the teardown wasn't pretty.The mains had been starved for oil!! We surmised that the mesh tray had allowed the oil in the pan to slosh thru it on the launch and stay in a oil cloud around the crank--not returning to the oil pump pickup.The mesh pans do well on the dyno but thats not what we drive.

[greg mcdonald]

I just bought one of the milidon windage trays and it does not work because the studs are too long to allow the stock pan to button up.Basically the bottom of the pasn becomes the windage tray on the front anyway soo....

[Don Kennedy]

I don't run a windage tray>No problem. I run a very modifyied screen

[russ467]

No problem at all with my canton tray.

[gearbanger]

I think I am going to cut the scraper part off the full tray and use that in my 461. I don't want any scrap in my oil pan, and I am willind to sacrifice any hp that might be lost by removing the scraper. I saw a post by Steve Coomes that showed how he bolted the oil dipstick tube to the tray and that looked like a good way to do it.