650hp 455 9.8 compression

[TIAUTOMAN]

Hey follks, just wanted to say hi, and tell you how great the people at Rock and Roll engineering are.

I just received my King street 455.
It made 650hp at 6100rpms and 617 ft lbs torque
at 4500. Not to bad for a low compression motor.

you can see the Dyno results at Pontiacpower1.com

[TIAUTOMAN]

Hey follks, just wanted to say hi, and tell you how great the people at Rock and Roll engineering are.

I just received my King street 455.
It made 650hp at 6100rpms and 617 ft lbs torque
at 4500. Not to bad for a low compression motor.

you can see the Dyno results at Pontiacpower1.com

[Guy Mazza]

...you must be new here! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Welcome!

"The mind is a precious thing to taste" Brad Nowell

[GONZO]

I can't wait to see what happens you YOU actually run the car.

http://www.kingofgtos.com/index.htm

[Ron]

Good luck, you will need all of the luck you can get!

http://www.pontiacenthusiast.com/GTO4RON.jpg

[Half-Inch Stud]

even 9:1 can ping like JiffyPop.

I wanna get my motor to make that power too, yet am darn sensitive about ping with pump gas. Can you talk about the combo....yet?

H.I. Stud

"11.00/123MPH/1.50 60foot/29.5"/4.10:1/10"/472 #48/Flat HYD/DualQuad/Wenzler/3250Lbs
12.00/112MPH/1.61 60foot/26"/3.31:1/10"/472 #48/FlatHYD/Q-Jet/Torker/3650Lbs"

[Half-Inch Stud]

...welcome to the 3.31:1 gear club.

"11.00/123MPH/1.50 60foot/29.5"/4.10:1/10"/472 #48/Flat HYD/DualQuad/Wenzler/3250Lbs
12.00/112MPH/1.61 60foot/26"/3.31:1/10"/472 #48/FlatHYD/Q-Jet/Torker/3650Lbs"

[Cobrabill]

Please post the time your car runs with the motor.
Odds are your King will run more like a servant.

Live & learn

Stupidity should be painfull

[TIAUTOMAN]

We shall see what happens when I run my car.

If it runs mid 10's then what are U still gonna bash Bruce? Im just curious.

[Mr_GTO]

http://home.earthlink.net/~rvandegrift/fulper.htm

That is a entertaining story.

------------------------------
I am looking forward to walking to work

[Cobrabill]

Untill he goes back to Buicks.

10's???Not a chance.Be sure to let me know when you're runnin'-cause i'll be there.

Stupidity should be painfull

[Ron]

Gach is back with a new name, Travis. 650 HP and it runs 12's. Must be the air in Rhode Island.

Ron

http://www.pontiacenthusiast.com/GTO4RON.jpg

[Brian Baker]

I'll put my 3900+ lb, 11.25:1 compression, naturally aspirated Discomobile up against that 650+ HP nitrous fed pump gas unknown weight Goat (bet it's lighter than mine) and we'll see who comes out in front at the finish line.

Dyno numbers are nice. Timeslips are WAY better. Bring it to any major Pontiac event in the next 12 months and we'll see.

No offense, but nobody likes smack-talkers with dyno numbers. You can't race a dyno or a flowbench.

http://kurtspontiac.homestead.com/files/bbaker.jpg

[Brian Baker]

I'll be at Maple Grove, Norwalk, and Atco...possibly other races as well.

http://kurtspontiac.homestead.com/files/bbaker.jpg

[PONTIAC DUDE]

Nice profile Travis. /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

We will match or beat anyone's "Current" catolog price on any Automotive related part. Give us a call. We build and learn from em all, but We "LOVE" Pontiacs!!!
http://PontiacDude.cc

[Tim Corcoran]

Travis,

First I would like to say welcome to the board. Secondly I would like congratulate you on your new motor. Sounds like it will really haul. As you can see some people around here don't like Bruce Fulper. I'm am sorry if it seemed like a personal attack on you. Please let us know how she runs when you get her on a race track. For some reason it seems that people just love to hate Bruce. Even people who have never met him or had business dealings with the guy seem to jump on the band wagon. Anyhow I met Bruce several years ago when I lived in California and I was in the Inland Empire GTO Club back when Bruce was president. I almast had him build an engine for me but ended up going with another builder. I have purchased parts from him before though. I personally haven't had any bad experiences with the guy. I have seen some cars running pretty fast with R&R Engineering engines. I also know that Bruce was the first or one of the first to have the new Edlebrock heads CNC machined. It also seems to me that Bruce has a knack for producing some pretty powerful low compression motors. I'd have to say that the guy does have some insight into the Pontiac powerplant /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Tim C

65 LeMans, 3700lb. all steel, full interior, D-ports and a flat tappet cam, 11.06@122

[Goatman]

Kinda funny. Took me and most others I know 12:1 compression with 474ci to make those numbers...........

But hey, those numbers apparently can be had with a 350 Pontiac, so what's the big deal, right? /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Chance favors the prepared mind.

[Steve C.]

Motor was in all likelihood dynoe'd at Westec in Southern California.
Known to be generious with the numbers.
Not uncommon though, have one in Houston that is similar in nature.

'Damn right it's a street car'

[Jack Peters]

Travis,

A few questions. Not bashing anyone, just curious.

1. How much was the total cost and what was the original estimate?
2. How long did it take?
3. If it was delayed was it your fault or the builders?
4. Has the engine been run in a car yet or just on the dyno?
5. I think this was discussed earlier? It looks as if Ccas removed the posts.
6. I went to PP1 and couldn't find the post you refered to. Can you be more specific?

Thx.

JLP

[Held for Ransom]

Jack, you may have read the discussion here. http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee/forums?q=Y&a=tpc&s=7286011111&f=9956059711&m=5366065941&p=1

[tomnt]

Have delt with Bruce for a couple of years, only problem, was some things take time. Estimates and final prices have been fair. Got hand ported E-heads from RRE two years ago. My son purchased a 428 (400 block) shortblock from them this past summer. We sent the heads back, Bruce picked a cam. Westec dynoed it, 661 HP, with Bruce's carb,14 less with our carb. When it finally got to us we put it in a 1970 Firebird street car. Best so far 10.79 at 126. Don't know what it weighs, just put full exhuast on for inspection, had bullet mufflers, with turndowns. Will see if it slows down. Has 11.43 cr and have been running it on 93 octane Texaco pump gas, no nitrous. Best 60 ft has been 1.69 with M/T et-street tires. To get on PP1 you need to click on Login to New Board then on Forum Index, both engines are featured in Pump Gas Street Motors on the bottom.

[This message was edited by tomnt on December 25, 2002 at 11:37 AM.]

[This message was edited by tomnt on December 25, 2002 at 11:43 AM.]

[Jack Ferris]

Welcome.......
Post your ET's when your actually running it. Im interested in the real world numbers not Westech's dyno #'s. Either way, sounds like a good set up. Good luck to you.......

Wang whats with all the pictures it a parking lot.....

[Tom Vaught]

Welcome to the board, Travis,

Quote:

"If it runs mid 10's then what are U still gonna bash Bruce? Im just curious."

Just a comment. There is a guy in the Detroit area
with an all steel tempest that presently runs
10.57 with his combo. No spray. I have seen several Chevelles (also steel cars back seat removed and 6 point) run 10.70s at 127-ish MPH
with dynoed 550 hp engines. You say your engine
makes 650 and you want to run 10.50s? Why so slow? You should be in the 9s with that kind of
power and any weight reduction on the car.

I have no printable comments about your engine builder. Tom V.

http://kurtsplates.homestead.com/files/UR2SLO.jpg

[Jack Ferris]

What Tom said- My 3200# GTO runs 10.40's @127 with a 663 hp 469. However, because of the elevation I run at(4400 ft.) I loose 17% of my HP which calculates to 551 HP. Im guessing at a sea level track 9.80's would be about right. If your making a true 650 HP then mid 10's should be a slam dunk. Show me the money...Show me the money!!! Let us in on the rest of the combo...Let me guess a [email protected] HYD Roller??? /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
BTW Don Kennedy makes that much power with 9.4:1 and iron SD heads.....Whats that you cant make power with iron heads??


Wang whats with all the pictures it a parking lot.....

[Brian Baker]

What I'm about to say is in no way bashing Westech, just pointing to some observations.

In the recent PHR engine buildup article that Bruce ran his "King 350" in against several other builders, there were 3 different dyno facilities used to qualify for the contest. Westech was one.

The builders that qualified using one of the other two dyno facilities all had lower numbers than they did at Westech during the contest. The builders that used Westech to qualify did not see as large of a power increase from the qualifying runs to the contest runs as other competitors did. This is not to say that Westech has a "happy dyno", on the contrary. Their dyno was tuned by Superflow technicians prior to the contest, and is considered "dead nuts on".

There are certainly some comparisons to be made between the Westech dyno and other dyno facilities nationwide that use similar equipment. It would appear that the Westech dyno is more efficient.

Now you know why Bruce has all of these large dyno numbers with his combo's. On a "lesser" dyno they may only produce "average" numbers.

http://kurtspontiac.homestead.com/files/bbaker.jpg

[Goatman]

Dyno numbers can be manipulated a million ways. A "savy" engine builder knows this and uses it to hook customers.

Here's the thing:

If you can truely do work over and above all your competitors, a number of things will happen. First, you'll have a majority of the work in your feild. Second, you will charge, and recieve, a premium for your work. Third, your reputation will GROW among the people that use your services.

This particular builder has none of the three characteristics of someone who has done something that no one else can figure out how to do.

2 +2 = 4. Its that simple.

Chance favors the prepared mind.

[Tom Vaught]

Brian,

I think a great deal of your knowledge but I totally disagree with the following statement:

"Their dyno was tuned by Superflow technicians prior to the contest, and is considered "dead nuts on".

No disagreement there!

Quote:

"There are certainly some comparisons to be made between the Westech dyno and other dyno facilities nationwide that use similar equipment. It would appear that the Westech dyno is more efficient."


ALL dynos are calibrated using a torque beam of
known length and a documented set of weights. You
put a certain weight on the beam at a calibration
point and the read-out better say you have that amount of torque force on the beam. You do this for all of the calibration weights and develop a
torque sweep for the beam for its range. You can
repeat the checks a second time to measure any
variability in the process and also use a different checking point on the beam to confirm a
given torque point (like you do on different ranges on a Super Flow Flow bench).

Torque is Torque. There is no such thing as one
dyno have a more efficient torque reading vs another dyno. If the other dynos shops did not scale the dyno correctly or if the dyno drums are worn out (high leakage) then the people need to send them back to the dyno manufacturer and have them rebuilt or replaced. Big difference between a worn out dyno vs a calibrated error dyno which
can be corrected with proper scaling equipment.

Tom V.

http://kurtsplates.homestead.com/files/UR2SLO.jpg

[Goatman]

That goes for you too, BRIAN. /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Chance favors the prepared mind.

[bmpmdf]

The others were also allowed to retune their engines for the conditions at Westech. Most got more thru changing for sea level. The ones already in Cal. were tuned for it the first round. But it seems to be a happy dyno.

[TIAUTOMAN]

Hello
Ok to answer a few question.
First the price of the engine is around 11,500.
I bought everything, started with a crank
This is carb to pan including dyno test.
car is a 65GTO.
10's shouldnt be a problem. the limiting factor
will be suspension, chassis ( I have a lot of work to do)
I hope the car will weigh about 3400 to 3500 with mne in it.
The car is not tubbed, has a 9in 4wd disc brakes.
Dropped 2 1/2 inches.
I also have a Big shot system which is not on the car, and wont be untill I make sure I can hook the car up on the motor.
The motor runs, sounds wicked. I am waiting on exhaust., and the cage. Its all about money

[TIAUTOMAN]

Now as far as the time frame, it was a long time......very long time. Most of the delay was ME.
when I started this project I was a full time student, and working full time. So I knew what I wanted and made a few calls. Talked to buter, and Some one at SD perf....and I talked to Bruce.
Bruce is the only one who took the time to talk about what I wanted to do...I was blown off by butler and SD, and thats fine. I was basically told to call back when i had 12k in my pocket.
Bruce gave me a list of parts to get and his prices. and I went from there. SOme parts i bought from him, and others from summit.
Some delays in build. Had to wait on heads from
summit (back order). Had to wait to get money.
There was a dyno delay, due to the PHR shoot out.
dyno time was booked for the month sept/oct.
Other than that Im really happy.

[TIAUTOMAN]

Ive sent out a few pics to some of you, if you would like to post them Knock your selves out.

[TIAUTOMAN]

And by the way I still think Rock and Roll does an awesome job.

[jim brady]

This is not really about Bruce's knowlege, it is about his personality and his business practices. He has taken advantage of people many times. He has sponsored events and then refused to give the prizes that he promised. He has tried to get involved in events that he was not a part of. Bruce has made his own problems nationwide. He is very talented as a writer and by the way some of his stuff runs a good engine builder, but he toots his own horn way to much. To make a long story short Bruce is his own worst enemy.

[Jack Ferris]

Nice looking motor Travis. No doubt it will run hard. Im sure R&R can make power. As can most of the folks here. Not to be negative but if your looking for people here to agree with you on your feelings about R&R you may be disappointed. Like I said earlier, post some ET's and the cars weight. The bottom line is what matters. Good Luck and thanks for the pics.
ps. You hit it dead on Jim
Wang whats with all the pictures it a parking lot.....

[This message was edited by Jack Ferris on December 28, 2002 at 11:02 AM.]

[jim brady]

At this point with all of the engine kits available almost anyone can put together a 650 hp Pontiac without to much trouble. This is not to say that your engine is not awsome. I am sure that it is and I am glad that you are happy with who you chose. That is what makes this world so interesting. Their are all different kinds of people out their and you have the right to chose who you feel comfortable with. I did notice on the S/S board that Bruce is trying to find out what tracks have the best air so that he can try and run some good no's with his dragster. It will be interesting to see how quick he can run.

[Jack Ferris]

Tell BMF to come run in our thin ass air. Your right Jim. A good portion of the R&D has been done and is now available to the public. A few phone calls and a Visa card and you'll heve a 650 hp fire breathing Pontiac on your door step. Look in a National Dragster and see how many people are building Big Block Chevy's. Its a supply and demand thing. We demand and they supply.

Wang whats with all the pictures it a parking lot.....

[Tom Vaught]

Travis,

Jim Brady has been racing since the 60s and has
had a lot of engines put together by top engine
builders. He has also whipped Bruce's cars on the
track more than a few times. He is more than talk
as he has actually raced Bruce in competition
which a lot of people on the board haven't.

I have known Bruce since he was going to Chaffey College in California and hanging out with Pete,
Tony Sizemore, Jerry (the engine builder), and
others. Bruce has a lot of knowledge and if he
got out of the California "Hollywood Star" mode
could be a real force in the business. As Jim B.
says he is his own worst enemy.

I am glad that he was willing to work with you on
your engine using your payment schedule and you
have an engine you are proud of. That is all that
matters. Take it to the track and the people on the board will try and help you go faster. Tom V.

http://kurtsplates.homestead.com/files/UR2SLO.jpg

[TIAUTOMAN]

I am shooting for a finish date in April. Its all about finances. And its expensive. If it comes down to it I will put it together and take it to the track In April for the Pontiac heaven Race in Phoenix. Actually I need it done before that So i can run the car a bit to get used to it.
This will be by far the fastest car i have driven.
I think I will take an extra pair of shorts.......

[Tom Vaught]

When you get the car together, talk to the track
people, tell them you are new to this car, and want to get used to it.

Go on several test and tune nights with less people hopefully. Inform the track that you only want to do launches and 330 runs initially. This will keep your speed down but let you get used to the car and the power on the launch, where it is going to go, etc. New combinations can be all over the track which makes you look worse than doing 330 runs.

Once you feel comfortable running 330s and you have good 60 ft and 330 times, try some 1/8 mile
stuff. Once you are confortable there try some
1/4 mile stuff but not full out as you need to know your brakes will work for the 650 hp worth
of MPH.

Don't feel like you have to rush through any of this as this is the way ROY HILL teaches his PRO
STOCK drivers. If they learn this way so can you. Good luck. Tom V.

http://kurtsplates.homestead.com/files/UR2SLO.jpg

[TIAUTOMAN]

Ive raced before, but havent done it in a while.
The best the car ran before was 12.90's....
Car always went straight. I hope it still will.

[Old Man Taylor]

I worked 8 years getting my racecar done. It is the first car where I had every nut and bolt off of the car. The brakes were different (front disk conversion), etc. Plus I had never raced an engine that never had any miles on it before. My first day at the track was a very anxious one. Greg Minor called me "nervous Norvis". On my first run I went all out to the eighth mile then hit the brakes hard to make sure they worked. The people at the track thought that I had broken something. My second run was an all out run, but it was still anxiety to assure I could stop in the short shutdown area of our track. I made three runs that day and all three were singles. The track is quite good about that with a new car. My best on that day was 11.05. It got quicker as I got more familiar with the car and settled in on launch technique, shift points etc.

http://www.jimspontiac.homestead.com/Index.html

http://kurtsplates.homestead.com/files/jimplate.jpg

[Goatman]

Most optimum way to "break in" your car and yourself would be to go to a track rental.

Chance favors the prepared mind.

[Tom Vaught]

Quote:

"Ive raced before, but havent done it in a while.
The best the car ran before was 12.90's....
Car always went straight. I hope it still will."

BIG difference between a car that runs 12.90s and
a 650 hp car that should run 9.60s on how the car launches, moves around, etc.

I would not want to be next to you until I was sure that you knew what the car was going to do.
Bad enough whe you have two experienced 9 second
drivers. Tom V.

If you will notice OMT had years of racing on the street with fast cars and he still was cautious.

http://kurtsplates.homestead.com/files/UR2SLO.jpg

[David Holmberg]

Copy that!

[Old Man Taylor]

I also failed to mention that my streetcar had already run 10.80, so I had quite a bit of experience driving a 10-11 second car. However, it was a true streetcar. One of the things I did to prepare for my new car (and to keep me motivated towards the end of the project) was to go to Frank Hawley's Drag School. It was a great learning experience. I chose the Super Gas Trans Am, as that would handle closer to my project car than the dragster. Although the class is pricey, but it was extremely worthwhile. I used it to get my NHRA Competition license, which qualifies you to run standard wheel base cars in the 7.50-9.99 performance class. I ran 9.54 at 144. It turns out that my racecar handles more like the drag school car than my streetcar due to the 12-point roll cage and other suspension mods. My anxiety at the track had nothing to do with my concern about controlling the car. It was about the integrity of what I had put together. When making the kind of performance jump that you are making it is wise to start slowly. The way they made you do it in the drag school was to start with a 200-foot run. All runs had to have the gas pedal floored, or the run was over. After the instructor was happy with the control you exhibited with the run he would approve you to go to the next distance. Otherwise you repeated your run. The distances were 200’, 600’, 1000’ and then the full quarter mile.

http://www.jimspontiac.homestead.com/Index.html

http://kurtsplates.homestead.com/files/jimplate.jpg

[GoatRider]

Hey Travis,

Congrats on moving your project along, sounds like it will be done far ahead of mine. Like you I have not raced in anything with serious horsepower for a number of years. (Went as quick as 10.79 back when the GTO still had a BBC in it circa 1992.)

I don't know which side of town you live on, but if I were you, I would take it out to either Speedworld on a Wednesday or Firebird on a Friday night "run what you brung" night. They are both excellent surfaces so you can eliminate poor track conditions from your (probably long) list of variables.

Follow the advice from some of the older-wiser guys here and tell the track techmen that it is your first time out with the car. They will let you run a single, they are always interested in safety. Conversely if you just go balls out and get squirrelly they may very well ask you to leave. They will DEFINITELY not let you run again if you break under the ET limit or over the speed limit without the proper NHRA comp. license.

Good luck, hope to see you at Pontiac Heaven Drags.

"Nothing Beats an Ol' Goat..."
http://www.wacomquartz.com/images/license_non2orqcopy.jpg

[Bruce Meyer]

Travis- I wouldnt take it to Speedworld on a Wednesday night. They dont treat the track on Wednesday night. Plus all the ricers go out there on Wednesday night and they leave marbles all over the track. Take it out on Friday night and let everyone get their first runs in before you take a shot at it. That way there will be some decent rubber laid out.

[TIAUTOMAN]

I live Phoenix, near 43rd ave and camelback area.
Are any of you in PHX near me?

[GoatRider]

Nope, I live way out East of Phoenix actually but work downtown near the airport. "PonchoPete" lives out your way tho.

"Nothing Beats an Ol' Goat..."
http://www.wacomquartz.com/images/license_non2orqcopy.jpg

[TIAUTOMAN]

Ive spoke to him once, I bought my carb fittings from him.

[ponchopete]

Bruce Meyer is right. If you want to get a handle on the car without it getting too loose at the track, take it to SpeedWorld on Friday night. Just be prepared to only get two, MAYBE three passes in, as they really cater to the bracket cars. Once you get comfortable, then I'd suggest taking it Wednesdays. The track doesn't work as good, as they don't do much prep, but it's a lot more fun ('cause you can beat up on the ricers), and you can make five or six passes without rushing things. Once you get it running, you should bring it up to Sonic on 35th Ave. & Union Hills on a Saturday night. That's where all the "street racers" meet, around 10:30. It's always nice to see some fresh iron roll in that's actually fast. http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"My car would be fast if it had an engine, transmission, and rear axle in it."

[TIAUTOMAN]

Hey Pete How is your car coming?
Are you gonna be ready in April?
Still Hopin I will............Its all about money.
Speed world has gotten really busy in the last couple of years. I can remember going out there
and running all night one right after another.

[ponchopete]

My car has a very nice protective layer of dust over it right now. http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
I'm hoping I can have it ready for Steve's event in April. It won't have a cage in it by then, so I'll probably get booted. If the new engine isn't ready in time, the old junk 350 is still sitting in the engine bay, so I might just take it out with that P.O.S. still in place to at least show some support for the event. I know it's got a mid 11 in it with the 350 and some bottle, so I shouldn't get smoked too bad. http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

"My car would be fast if it had an engine, transmission, and rear axle in it."

[TIAUTOMAN]

I hear ya, I hope my car will make it. Im pretty sure its not going to be done. But Miracles happen.....

[GoatRider]

If all 3 of us get there by April we can form the "PY Board AZ Miracle Team"

LOL.. good luck guys.

"Nothing Beats an Ol' Goat..."
http://www.wacomquartz.com/images/license_non2orqcopy.jpg

[Tom McQueen]

While theres no way Ill have the 545 done by April, the car itself will be mechanically ready (that means no paint or interior). I might be able to slide my SD-455 into the GTO and run that. Im using the SD as my mock up engine so it wouldnt be a big deal to just hook it up.

[GoatRider]

An SD engine to use as a mock-up block. You SHOW OFF!!! http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

"Nothing Beats an Ol' Goat..."
http://www.wacomquartz.com/images/license_non2orqcopy.jpg

[TIAUTOMAN]

Santa just showed up a little late....better late than never...He left me a 3.5 in Exhasut system
from torque tech......Hope it fits...

[ponchopete]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GoatRider:
If all 3 of us get there by April we can form the "PY Board AZ Miracle Team"

LOL.. good luck guys.

"Nothing Beats an Ol' Goat..."
http://www.wacomquartz.com/images/license_non2orqcopy.jpg
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sounds good to me! http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I just now got a deal in the works to get the machine work done to my block, which is what has been holding me up. Damn near $1,300 is hard to come up with on a single income with a mortgage! http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif If this goes through, I should be able to have my Lemans at Steve's event with the new 467 in it. Since nobody really responded to my nitrous parts I had for sale, it looks like the nitrous motor will be going together. I'll see if I can't bury the crank in the starting line! (lol) http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

"My car would be fast if it had an engine, transmission, and rear axle in it."