LS1 in my 1966 GTO?

[mrgto]

Anyone try this swap yet? I was thinking about it since the 455 E-Head EFI engine I want to do might be too expensive.

I was thinking about it. IT would knock about 100-150lbs off the front end compared to a 455. Plus I could easily bolt up a T56 or 4L60E tranny. Any thoughts about this swap.

And I guess I would rather keep the 455 for Drag duty.

------------------
1966 GTO awaiting restoration, 1999 Ram Air Trans Am

[mrgto]

Anyone try this swap yet? I was thinking about it since the 455 E-Head EFI engine I want to do might be too expensive.

I was thinking about it. IT would knock about 100-150lbs off the front end compared to a 455. Plus I could easily bolt up a T56 or 4L60E tranny. Any thoughts about this swap.

And I guess I would rather keep the 455 for Drag duty.

------------------
1966 GTO awaiting restoration, 1999 Ram Air Trans Am

[Scott Misus]

What's an "LS-1?"

[mrgto]

LS1 is the current engine in the Corvette and Camaro/Firebird.

[Scott Misus]

Oh. I see.

Do these engines, along with their respective transmissions, yokes, computer control systems, engine swap brackets, headers, etc., come cheaper than do real Pontiac engines?

[mrgto]

Well, the price is nominal. A LS1 out of a wrecked F-body will run around $3000. A aftermarket harness and computer is another $500. Then I would have to buy headers $700.

The 455 I wanted to build would cost a fortune. THe EFI unit is around $2700 all by itself. Then I need the E-heads$2000, headers, etc.

I could pull the tranny along with the engine. The only problem I am looking at is the motor mounts.

[Ccass]

Scott, easy does it. You're in a Chevy Powered Forum.

[KS circutguy]

Why spend all that $$$ on a small block when you can buy a 502c.i. HO 440 hp from GM along with a warranty,new?? No computer bs involved,and its got torque like a built Poncho motor...
You can also get a complete zz4 350 ho new from chevy with aluminum heads,intake,ditrib.waterpump,balancer,oil pan,etc.and a new motor warranty..For $2,999.95??? That ones rated at 355 hp/405 ft-lbs. torque....I prefer Pontiac motors in a pontiac,and vis-versa,but what ever floats yer boat.... /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif steve.

[mrgto]

I am guessing that you have no experience with computer controlled cars. They are very easy to work on. Tune and so forth. I just got a email from a gentleman with one in his chevelle and it was some work but it is different. And that is what I want. I don't and won't put a BBC or SBC in a GTO. I don't like seeing that but I have YET to see a LS1 in a Pontiac that had Traditional power.

I would like to save my 455 for Drag racing.

Take a ride in a LS1 powered car, it won't dissapoint. Pete McCarthy did, and he is sold on them. Thanks for the input.

[Ken K]

A LS1 engine may run good but a thing of beauty it's not. I would rather see a Tri Power sitting on top of a Pontiac engine when I lifted the hood of a 66 GTO than an ugly LS1 engine.

[This message has been edited by Ken K (edited 11-13-2000).]

[David Holmberg]

Did you know that the LS1 will only accept a re-hone? No room for even the smallest over-bore! That the LS1 heads can't be milled? They are so thin any removal of material and they will warp! You have the LS1 in your TA, Please keep the GTO all Pontiac.

------------------
That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

[mike nixon]

i'd leave the pontiac in the pontiac and if you want an ls1 then build a street rod. and before you ask yes i do have extensive experience with computer controlled fuel injection systems[dealer experience]. one of the best things about the traditional pontiac engine is the torque, and you'll lose that with the corprate powerplant.
leave the throw away engines for the throw away cars. mike

[Bob Kazian]

If you do go through with the LS1 swap, please leave it painted black and not Pontiac Blue Metallic. Nothing looks worse than a Chevy or Corporate engine trying to be disguised by painting it in Pontiac blue.

------------------
Bob Kazian
Greer, SC
[email protected]

[mrgto]

Well, the LS1 is not painted at all. All natural aluminum.

2nd, don't tell the guys at MTI in Houston, www.morganmotorsports.com (http://www.morganmotorsports.com) or ARE Racing in Canada that these engines can't be built to go.

Some guys who just installed a cam into a stock engine, are turning in the neighborhood of 360rwhp. That would be over 400 at the crank.

Dave, the heads won't warp. As any of the people above about these engines.

[KS circutguy]

YO Mrgto,Why would anyone on a low budget spend all the time and money to reto-fit a modern puter controlled USED motor into an old car when the can get more HP per $$$$ staying with the older carb setups???

I have made a living for 20yrs. wrenching for as an ase master tech,state DOE certified tech,w/many other tech puter certs. http://performanceyears.com/ubb/tongue.gif

My main point to the mans ?? is, if he doesnt have the proper diagnostic tools and knowledge,he will be over his head at the most minor drive-ability problem..

Most ECM controlled cars are reliable,I agree,but to the average back yard mech. I cannot truthfully recommend he do it,especially if hes on a limited budget !! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

ANYMOTOR can be made to run, example-->
Brigs@straton lawn mower engine in a JR dragster class,if ya got the $$$$$$...

And it dont have a puter.. http://performanceyears.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif

[Cruiser]

I agree with the guys above I have done numerous engine swaps and they are never easy.You better be a good fabricator or have very deep pockets.If you expect to finish the job.
You can build a traditional Pontiac without E-heads that will rip a LS1 apart. My Iron headed 455 makes 580-600H.P and 600 ft.lbs of torque all day long.
Another point to consider is resale value who wants a Bas#%*d engine in their classic pontiac GTO I bet not very many people.
The LS1 will NEVER make the torque that a Pontiac will.
I could understand a 400-455 swap in a late model T/A thats cool. But not the other way around.
However it is your car so do what you want dude. Good Luck

------------------

[Maniac]

I've also been thinking about a late model engine in a classic vehicle. My idea was a Z06 Corvette engine in a 36' Pontiac Coupe. The car isn't super rare or anything so totally customizing it wouldn't be unforgiveable. I wanted to use an interior scheme from a late model luxury car, custom paint job etc. Basically the power of a late model 'Vette, comfort of a Mercedes, and the looks of a 36' Pontiac.

I guess it all depends on what you want to do with the car. If you want to race, stick with the 455, if you want to cruise, and do something different then go with the LS1 if it interests you, but know the extra effort you'll need to put into it. All the guys have made good points, but in the end it's your car and your choice.

Since the 66' Goat is one of my fav's, I would stick with the true pontiac iron if I was restoring one. But I say do what you want.

[This message has been edited by Maniac (edited 11-18-2000).]

[Scott Misus]

An LS-1 isn't a small block Chevy? Please.

[Cruiser]

Scott a LS1 is a entirely new engine first developed for use in the corvette.This engine I believe replaced the LT4 In the corvette in 1997.This engine has a deep skirt in the block that kind of resembles a big block mopar the crank sets deep in the block.They also incorperated Powdered metel technology to forge the rods.They also use torque to yeild bolts throughout These bolt's must be thrown away once removed.The valve(I-E-I-E-I-E-I-E) arangement is also completly different than the Traditional Small Block. The horsepower rating is 330 in the vette.This engine has both aluminum block and heads.I believe that a cast iron version now powers V-8 chevy/GMC trucks.This is a completly new design the only thing that it shares with the trditional small block is the displacement.Later Mark B.

------------------

[Scott Misus]

OK, fair enough.

But if you want to downgrade from a Pontiac to some form of used engine, why not go out and find a ZR-1, or Mercury Marine, Corvette motor? Or even better yet, a Cadillac Northstar engine.

[Cruiser]

or a blue fame 6,internatinal harvester304w/high performance2barrel carb,poly sphere318,Ramler273,350Olds Diesel,VegaAlum head4 cyl, ......something really different I think the olds diesel would be a real head turner in a goat.(or is that stomach turner?)P.S. maybe we could get some tips from the DUDE on adding nitrious to this bomb!
later MarkB.

------------------

[mike nixon]

hey don't knock the harvester engines, they make tons of torque. no rpm but ton's of torque.if you're gonna go diesel at least make it a 6.2 so it'll turn some rpm. i drove one of the banks turbo set ups with a modified govenor in a suburban. really impresive for a coal burner. mike

[Cruiser]

Hey Mike I know a little bit about IH power I used to drive a scout 4/WD back in 76-77(it would go anywhere but had horrible electrical system).
With the 6.2 throw a turbo & an intercooler
on that old oilburner and you are good to go.Go burn down some grand nationals with your tubo Delta 88 land barge!!
Later Mark B.

------------------

[David Holmberg]

I never said they can't be built up! Just go ahead and try to Bore one... They have to use stroker kits to get bigger... I have a lot of friends with ls1 f-bodys and they do run great. If you really want a new motor in an old car, buy a Chevelle...

[Scott Misus]

A 6.2 GM diesel? C'mon, guys. That thing's a bigger piece of crap than the Olds 350 diesel. At least, with bigger head bolts and improved head gaskets, the Olds 350 can be rebuilt to be reliable.

If the 6.2 isn't breaking cranks every 6 months, then it's cracking cylinder heads between the valves.

No thanks!

[mike nixon]

scott, the later 6.2's were a decent engine. all the 5.7 olds engines were junk. you might find 1 out of a 1000 that ran 100,000 with no problems. the 85 and up 6.2's that we sold had no major mechanical problems, the early ones did have bottom end problems.mike

[Ed Neasham]

Mrgto

Just read this thread. It's not something I'd do, but it's YOUR car. Do what ever you want. If you are trying to get everybody to agree on something, on this board you are going to wait a long time. It'll be somewht of a challange, but when you get it done, you can say "I did it!".

Cruiser one other thing the engine shares with a 350 Chevy is the bore spacing. Other than that, you are right. There is no simularities other than cu in. So it is truly a "corporate" engine and not a "Chevy" engine now.

Now the Northstar engine idea, hummm.

Ed

[69 LS1]

MrGTO. I have been looking for any information on this for a while now. What started (like you) as an idea for a fuel injected 455, has now changed to a late model LS1 and tranny swap. The fuel injection notion came from my need for more reliability in my GTO, which I want to be my daily driver. When I blew my 455, and realized (like you) what a fuel injected 455 would cost to build from scratch, I decided to look else where. Realizing that most LS1's with minor mods could eat my descently modded LT1 95 TA alive daily, moved me in that direction. Sure its not a torque monster, but LS1's have balls right out of the box, and with a little work will be a dead reliable and powerfull motor. I think that a mix of a classic with new technology will be a beautiful thing, even if the LS1 is, as so many say in this post, "ugly".

Needless to say the 99 LS1 doesn't look that bad on the shop floor right now, but the big hole between the fenders of my 69 GTO does. Since I have not really found any information on this swap yet the learning curve will start in the next week or so. MrGTO, its your car and you should do what you want. I hope this has encouraged you to go ahead and be original, and if you could send me an email with the chevelle guys address I would appreciate it.

[email protected]

I am already preparing for the close minded "pure pontiac" hate mail I will surely recieve for this.

[68 Prix]

Who needs fuel injection for a more reliable motor? I had injectors go bad. It is a machine and will brake with time. I drove my GP alot in high school and never had a problem with the carb. Now the trany, http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif well that is another story along with the tires http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Do what you want it is your car but I would rather see a ratty old Pontiac motor in a Pontiac than some redone Chevy, http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I meen corporate motor. It was after all designed for the Corvette making it a Chevy? http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

[TA454]

Dude,
Go for it! I cant wait to see pix and hear status reports on how the LS1 works out. As for the Whiners F- them.
Just remember it is YOUR car, Build it the way You want to.It is also Your dollers being spent not theirs.Until a whiner funds YOUR project their 2 cents dont mean sh*t!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Chuck Zeek
76 Trans Am 496 Chevy Powered
and Loving it! http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

[Doug]

To paraphrase Charley The Tuna stuff: It sounds like "going down to the price instead of living up to a standard". That said, I agree that this is Amerka! Do whatever you want! It's your money!

[andrewb70]

I think it would be a killer swap.

http://www.speakeasy.org/~andrewb/icons/headbanger.gif

Andrew

Project GatTagO (http://groups.msn.com/projectgattago)

[Donovan]

You could find what you needed info-wise at this guys site:

1988 Monte Carlo LS1 Swap (http://www.montecarloss.com/ls1montecarloss/)

He's got a similar configuration to your car and has completed the swap. Now running 12's and getting 428/400 HP/TQ to the rear wheels. Holy crap!

He has a lovely "Swap cost data" sheet outlining the money spent to swap the stock engine and tranny in PROPERLY. Much was custom. He finished just short of $10,000.

I've seen swap mounts offered for other body styles. around $200 You can figure you'll have $6-7000 in the engine and tranny alone.

It would be a neat swap but you will pay for it. If you are looking for performance for dollar ratio, a 455 Pontiac with a custom MPI intake will be WAY cheaper, and easier. Make more power and be more exotic.

The LS1 cannot make up for the price difference in MPG. ever. Weight difference is not worth worrying over after you put E-heads on a traditional Poncho. A 6 speed tranny costs the same for either setup. I can't find any real sellable benefit to the LS1 swap, other than to do it, be different, bragging right, or novelty. I think LS1 are respectable and an LS1 swap very cool, but for now not quite worth it.

As much as I hate to be the one to point this out I will. On the Chevy/Corporate arguement about the LS1, the LS1 in my opinion is a corporate engine belonging to all GM marks. BUT... the LS1 does have a CHEVY bellhousing pattern. http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Compelling evidence that it is a Chevy engine. http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif Maybe because it's the only V8 pattern they have now? dunno. The Caddy Northstar doesn't use a Chevy bellhousing pattern. http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif Cringe http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
1968 Firebird Coupe
350 HO
TH350
3.23's
PS, PDB and Deluxe interior

GPE Starter MSD billet
Rodney Red Rad MSD 6a

Currently apart for suspension upgrades.

[jim brady]

The only thing worse than a 6.2 diesel is a 6.5 diesel and from My friend who owns a GM dealership the only thing worse than a 6.5 is the new duramax. He sold one to a guy from hear . he had the truck less than a week and left for Daytona. The alison trans went out on the way down. He got back as far as St louis and the Duramax took a crap. Ask Beswick about his new Duramax and he will tell you what a piece of crap it is.

[picketts charge]

The best thing about building a car is you can build it the way you want.

[68 Prix]

I knew it was a Chevy motor. http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I think K-mart is having a "Blue light special" on them Chevy motors. http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif LOL j/k

[andrewb70]

What does a Duramax have to do with an LS1 swap into a GTO?

Andrew

Project GatTagO (http://groups.msn.com/projectgattago)

[rumair]

LS1's are slow...

97 Trans Am WS6
Best ET: 12.13
Best MPH 114.6
74 Formula 455
Best ET: 12.02
Best MPH: 112

[andrewb70]

Here is a link that might help.

70 Chevelle LS1 swap (http://www.hotrodlane.cc/70chevelle/1970ls1chevelle.htm)


Andrew

Project GatTagO (http://groups.msn.com/projectgattago)

[68 Prix]

After looking at that site I do have to ask the ones that have done a swap like this, Is it actually cheeper? http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif
It also looked like alot of modification was needed to the car. I will give you that it is not another Chevy motor though http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif just for the fact they were putting it in a Chevy and had to modify the car a lot!!!! http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif.

[almeyer]

Building cars is a personal thing. Everyone has different tastes. Who cares what engine a person puts in his personal car? Next thing I going to read is someone on the board is unhappy because he didn't paint it the original color, with the original Pontiac paint! Gee, how many of you have updated your brakes to something that was made for a car other than Pontiac? How many of you still have the original tires? Most people who build Pontiacs build them so they have something different, now many of you seem to be rebelling when a Pontiac person wants something different.

I say build what makes you feel good - let the rest of the world wonder why!

[69 LS1]

An update for those of you that care. The LS1 should be between the frame rails of my 69 GTO in the next week. I am waiting on my modified oil pan. I will try to post pics when it is in and things really start moving. I am starting to realize that this will not be cheaper in the end but I think it will be very unique in a Pontiac, which is what I am after http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[andrewb70]

Can't wait to see the pics.

Andrew

Project GatTagO (http://groups.msn.com/projectgattago)

[goatseeker]

A GTO on the road with an LS1 is better than a GTO sitting behind somebodys house on blocks - no matter what the diehards say http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif!
Agree w/Andrew - post your pics when you get her rolling. http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://kurtspontiac.homestead.com/TimSimpson66GTO.html

[robinb]

I'm probably about 6 months behind you in the same engine swap for a 67 lemans convertible. Keep up your posts so we can see how its done.

Robin

[rumair]

LS1's are still slow, even in a GTO...

97 Trans Am WS6
Best ET: 12.13
Best MPH 114.6
74 Formula 455
Best ET: 11.97
Best MPH: 112.58

[69 LS1]

For those of you wanting to follow the LS1 project I started a new topic

For Rumair, sure stock LS1's may be slow compared to certain motors, but it will eat a stock LT1 for sure. I'm sure your 12 sec LT1 is "stock"-- right, or it only cost you a couple hundred to go low 12s. Do your car buddies believe these stories, cause if they do, I have some stuff to sell them.

[rumair]

before it blew up, my LT1 had ported stock heads, hyd. roller cam (230/236 duration), long tube headers, 36# injectors, electric water pump, SPEC clutch and some other bolt-ons...probably about ~$4000~ worth of mods in total, not counting traction stuff, gears and rear end cover. from what i've been able to gather it was probably one of the 10 quickest/fastest NA, stock bottom end 6-speed cars in the country.

i'm not claiming that LT1's are faster than LS1's, i just love to needle the LS1 crowd. http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif it's well known that an otherwise stock LS1 will run well over 110 with a relatively small dosage of laughing gas.

97 Trans Am WS6
Best ET: 12.13
Best MPH 114.6
74 Formula 455
Best ET: 11.97
Best MPH: 112.58

[Hawk397]

Personally, I don't think I could swap out traditional Pontiac power in an older car - but that's just my personal feelings!

As for an LS-1, AWESOME Engine!
You can see the numbers in my sig and that's with a stock bottom end on a full weight car. On motor only, she puts 406HP to the rear wheels and 393ftlbs.

Motor mods include ported and polished heads, a medium duty cam (221/558/114) and headers. The real deal is the custom tuning which I do myself with LS1 Edit. I've got to admit, changing my timing curve and "jetting" in 5 minutes makes it really easy!!!

Good luck with whatever way you choose!

Mark T

1974 White Super Duty Trans Am
-----------------------------
1999 Red TA FireHawk #397
2002 Best: 11.68@116 NA (10.7@127 on the Juice!)