87 Safari - Olds 307/200-4R to Olds403/Chevy700R4 swap

[einstein]

I want to tackle this project this week, to drive the car 2,500 miles for the holidays.

Car came from factory with the 5.0 Liter (307ci) Oldsmobile engine. Currently has carburetor with computer and the TCC was chattering at highway speeds at 206,000 miles. Currently at 220,000 on vehicle. I religiously changed the oil every 20,000 to 30,000 miles. I can NOT kill this engine! It's just externally oiled - bottom of car will never rust.

I got a fresh 403, .040" over, dated about 1977 and supposedly from a TA. It was in a roundy-round 77 Cutlass racecar which I bought (and discarded the car). It sounded good when in the car. The 700R4 was freshly built and shelved a couple years ago, with a Corvette torque converter. I've got the bellhousing adaptor too.

I figure to use the old carb and distributor, then re-engineer the computer system after I return home with help from an ex-GM electronics engineer friend who loves computer cars (I don't).

I am looking for obvious pitfalls from anybody who might have experience with this or similar swaps.

Oh yeah, the most important thing - LOW BUCKS! I don't have the time or funds to re-engineer everything quickly.

I expect to spend for driveshaft altering (for the 700R4, takes different yoke and trans is longer). Also, for some device to engage the TCC, preferably with manual intervention capabilities.

Glenn Uettwiller [email protected]
http://firstgenfirebird.org/show/closeup.mv?CarID=209
http://firstgenfirebird.org/show/closeup.mv?CarID=210

"To choose one's victim, to prepare one's plan minutely, to stake an implacable vengeance, and then go to bed... there is nothing sweeter in the world." - Joseph Stalin

[einstein]

I want to tackle this project this week, to drive the car 2,500 miles for the holidays.

Car came from factory with the 5.0 Liter (307ci) Oldsmobile engine. Currently has carburetor with computer and the TCC was chattering at highway speeds at 206,000 miles. Currently at 220,000 on vehicle. I religiously changed the oil every 20,000 to 30,000 miles. I can NOT kill this engine! It's just externally oiled - bottom of car will never rust.

I got a fresh 403, .040" over, dated about 1977 and supposedly from a TA. It was in a roundy-round 77 Cutlass racecar which I bought (and discarded the car). It sounded good when in the car. The 700R4 was freshly built and shelved a couple years ago, with a Corvette torque converter. I've got the bellhousing adaptor too.

I figure to use the old carb and distributor, then re-engineer the computer system after I return home with help from an ex-GM electronics engineer friend who loves computer cars (I don't).

I am looking for obvious pitfalls from anybody who might have experience with this or similar swaps.

Oh yeah, the most important thing - LOW BUCKS! I don't have the time or funds to re-engineer everything quickly.

I expect to spend for driveshaft altering (for the 700R4, takes different yoke and trans is longer). Also, for some device to engage the TCC, preferably with manual intervention capabilities.

Glenn Uettwiller [email protected]
http://firstgenfirebird.org/show/closeup.mv?CarID=209
http://firstgenfirebird.org/show/closeup.mv?CarID=210

"To choose one's victim, to prepare one's plan minutely, to stake an implacable vengeance, and then go to bed... there is nothing sweeter in the world." - Joseph Stalin

[johnta1]

If you don't have the time or money to do this why start?

The swap I would think would be relatively easy,except for the exhaust.Might have to take it to the muffler shop.

The lockup converter should be real easy also.Just run a wire from the lockup prong to a switch and power.Turn on when you want, turn off when you don't want it.Just remember to turn it off when you come to a stop.

johnta1
Pontiac Power RULES !!!
www.wallaceracing.com (http://www.wallaceracing.com)
http://wallaceracing.com/johnta1plate.jpg

[Brian Baker]

Motor mounts (at least on the engine side) I would imagine are the same, since the 403 and the 307 are in the same "small block" family of Olds V8's. Other than that, I can't help.

http://kurtspontiac.homestead.com/files/bbaker.jpg

[Mr_GTO]

Well, motor won't be a problem.


Get that and the wiring kit for the TC from www.jegs.com (http://www.jegs.com)
and you will have to shorten the driveshaft.

Unless you live in a area that does emission testing, don't bother with the computer. Bypass it. Everything else should work just fine.

------------------------------
I am looking forward to walking to work

[Blackcat]

Well, As you have been told the Engine is a direct Bolt in! The Trans will be also. I highly suggest putting the engine and trans in as a unit. That way once you have the engine mounts bolted up you can check the crossmamber for fit and if you have to make new mount holes. Modification of the coolent lines for the Trans may be in your future! I'd highly suggest finding another big car that has the 700R-4 in and pulling the lines and various items needed. Many of the big cars did have the Trans. Might also check the Driveshaft for legnth! Also a book on the Models like a GM service manual would be a great idea!
As for the computer? That's your baby! It most likely will operate with the 403. But not worth a crap! Personally I usually Yank the Comp and install wiring from an earlier one of just bypass it all!
Way too expensive to modify to Run with the 403.
If you have someone that can do it you are very well off! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Usually I'm found working on my Pontiac. If you want to find me Look for the white picket fence and all the old Pontiacs parked outside. And the half dissembled engine sprawled all over the driveway!
http://www.sensible-net.com/kevin/plates/wagoon.jpg

[428GTO70]

Actually even the big block olds used the same motor mounts. Only difference is big blocks have a higher deck height, making the intake wider. All the same bracketry,heads and everything else as a small block, so you could drop in a 455 basically just as easy, except the heater box gets close /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://www.mensexpo.com.futuresite.register.com/db1/00024/mensexpo.com/_uimages/tigeranm.gif
GR-RRR!

[einstein]

Well, if stuff is mounted to cylinder heads that are farther apart, how does everything line up? Wouldn't that move the alternator up and out? Plus the power steering pump mounts on positions of both head and block, so I'd think there was a different bracket for that. Same deal for the AC compressor.

Anyway, I'm pretty committed to this 403 for now, since that is what I have.

Thanks for any and all help, guys.

Glenn Uettwiller [email protected]
http://firstgenfirebird.org/show/closeup.mv?CarID=209
http://firstgenfirebird.org/show/closeup.mv?CarID=210

"To choose one's victim, to prepare one's plan minutely, to stake an implacable vengeance, and then go to bed... there is nothing sweeter in the world." - Joseph Stalin

[428GTO70]

Power steering pump bolts to 2 water pump bolts on the front, and a hole on the side of the block, alternator bracketr bolts entirely on the drivers side head so just a longer belt is needed over a small block. Never had ac so im not sure on that.

http://www.mensexpo.com.futuresite.register.com/db1/00024/mensexpo.com/_uimages/tigeranm.gif
GR-RRR!

[einstein]

I'm done for the evening, everything up top is apart. The power steering bracket for this car has an additional connection to a bracket bolted to the exhaust manifold's front bolt, so I don't know about a 455 adapting in easily. ALso, the cruise brackets connect to the alternator bracket AND the intake manifold, with one over the thermostat housing.

I did manage to remove all the exhaust manifold bolts while engine is in place. That reduces all the futzin' around underneath the car with exhaust stuff. The manifolds are tubular, by the way - not cast.

The AC bracketing also has an AIR pump underneath it. I will try to rig the AC compressor mounting without the AIR.

The copious quantity of vacuum systems and electronic controls on this engine is nothing short of amazing. I probably won't be able to get the cruise control working just yet, since I cannot easily figure out all the vacuum stuff.

Tomorrow I'll get it on stands, remove driveshaft and disconnect mounts and starter, and out it comes.

She's been a good engine, and still ran fine except for leaking oil and coolant at gaskets. Shame to actually remove it just for that, but no way would I do this much labor to re-seal an engine with 220,000 miles on it.

Glenn Uettwiller [email protected]
http://firstgenfirebird.org/show/closeup.mv?CarID=209
http://firstgenfirebird.org/show/closeup.mv?CarID=210

"To choose one's victim, to prepare one's plan minutely, to stake an implacable vengeance, and then go to bed... there is nothing sweeter in the world." - Joseph Stalin

[428GTO70]

Have fun and good luck! let us know how it goes.

http://www.mensexpo.com.futuresite.register.com/db1/00024/mensexpo.com/_uimages/tigeranm.gif
GR-RRR!

[Rick Lightfoot]

You did well to get 220k miles from a 307 without popping the head gaskets.

http://kurtspontiac.homestead.com/files/77canam.jpg

[einstein]

Engine/trans are OUT...

I'm cleaning the sludge from the frame and harnesses. This engine has been externally oiling itself for the last 60-70K miles, plus there's been a coolant leak at the LF of the intake manifold.

Funny story about oil leaks: Oil was dripping steadily from the corner where the block, pan and timing case meet, left side. Usage was about 30 miles per quart, and I usually didn't have to pull the stick. I would turn left into my driveway and the oil warning lamp would flicker; I'd add 3 quarts. One time, I seemed to be driving many more miles with no flicker, so I opened the hood and found the oil filler cap off, sitting on the air cleaner.

It seems blowby pressure combined with a leak at a place where oil was being slung from the timing chain would create this river of oil. I just left the cap off ever since, and consumption went to about one quart per 1,000 miles. But the car is oiled to the rear bumper underneath - it'll never rust!

PS Driveshaft yoke is the same from the 700R4 to the 200-4R, but I will need to shorten it. The 200 becomes a core for my 69 LeMans convertible.

Glenn Uettwiller [email protected]
http://firstgenfirebird.org/show/closeup.mv?CarID=209
http://firstgenfirebird.org/show/closeup.mv?CarID=210

"To choose one's victim, to prepare one's plan minutely, to stake an implacable vengeance, and then go to bed... there is nothing sweeter in the world." - Joseph Stalin

[einstein]

Here's my update: I took Sunday off. Right before I was to go get my helper Brian, who is my girlfriend's 13 year old son, I got a phone call that he's injured and awaiting an ambulance. Broke his right forearm, both bones. Monday, he went into surgery. Two incisions made to install two SS metal plates. Bad break; Xrays were UGLY. Friday morning he's supposed to get a cast, and then Friday afternoon we're should be heading to Long Island.

Yesterday, I get back on the swap. Assembled 403 engine to 700R4 transmission with Trans-A-Dapt, shove into car. This morning, I do the run-around for parts - Pep Boys, Discount, etc... Get back here about 2PM, and start assembling all the small stuff. It was running before midnight.

Trans crossmember was easier than I thought, just moved it forward and attached with two bolts, then made a small plate to adapt the rear mount to the X-member. Walked across street for a three-inch shorter driveshaft, and got the wrong one, due to poor memory. Tomorrow I return it and look for a closer one, or drive across town to get mine shortened.

We hooked up all the wires we could find, leaving many not connected, since they were for computer stuff. Surprisingly, the pre-computer wires were still in the harness, like oil and temp senders. Engine runs OK, but will need some tuning, like carb overhaul and such. But I think it's fine for the trip, maybe just connect the TCC for lock-up in fourth gear.

Biggest positive surprise? The throttle cable and the TV cable actually fell into place! It doesn't get any better than that.

There's nothing like an extra 100 cubic inches to change the personality of a car. I'm looking forward to a road test!

Glenn Uettwiller [email protected]
http://firstgenfirebird.org/show/closeup.mv?CarID=209
http://firstgenfirebird.org/show/closeup.mv?CarID=210

"To choose one's victim, to prepare one's plan minutely, to stake an implacable vengeance, and then go to bed... there is nothing sweeter in the world." - Joseph Stalin